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Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 10:48pmSanction this postReply
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In another topic, we are talking about the scientific revolution and its precursors, such as Eratosthenes.  I see egoism the same way.  Aristippus the Elder of Cyrene appears in Xenophon as an advocate of individualism.  His is not our sophisticated development any more than Anaxagoras's view that the sun is a hot stone bigger than the Pelopennesus and very far away, which was based on his finding a meteorite still hot.  We make progress.  Someone has to be first.  Aristippos of Cyrene was the first to eschew the protection of a city, to insist on his right to live on his own.  He did keep slaves to serve him, of course.  So, "... never to ask another man to live for mine" was beyond his understanding because of his contextual range of knowledge.  Still, he advocated for a morality that we can recognize as the forerunner of our own. 

But it was an exeption.

Individualism, as we understand it, was born in the Renaissance, when personal glory and achievement (l'uomo universale) was announced.  Befor that, altruism was the only definition, Aristippos of Cyrene not withstanding.

But it is interesting to understand Jesus (actually Paul of Tarshish who wrote for him) in that 'love thy neighbor as thyself" and "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" assume implicit self-interest.... if you want to see it that way.

You paint "religion" with a broad brush.  In 2008, my wife and I attended a "teaching" by Tenzin Gyatso, the present incarnation of the Dalai Lama.  It was all very nebulous and Buddhist.  At one point, he was reading questions submitted ahead of time. He drew a response of laughter with this:  "I am further along the path of spiritual enlightenment than my wife and communication has become diffiicult... Hmmm... Maybe divorce is the answer after all... but ...."  

Lhasa Buddhism might be the perfect religion.  What you eat, who you sleep with, it is all very much personal.  Your own path to enlightenment is not mine.

"I offer not an argument in contradiction, but a supplement in support."  (Koan of Michael.)

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/27, 10:51pm)


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Monday, January 28, 2013 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You wrote:
Individualism, as we understand it, was born in the Renaissance
But, I believe Aristotle would be considered an advocate of individualism. His ethics held that the happiness or well being of the individual was the goal to be achieved via the building of character. And in politics he saw the purpose of the city as creating the environment where individuals could live the good life. I don't remember him calling for sacrifice, or placing the well-being of others above the individual.

And, it wouldn't surprise me if there were other ancient philosophers before him who made implicit, if not explicit their understanding of good and right as something other than sacrifice - something that benefited the individual.

I wouldn't expect to see a fierce development of individualism until altruism was making a call for sacrifices and needed to be opposed. Altruism is the unnatural concept. Like the first person to look at a lobster and think that might be good to eat, who was the first person that said, we really ought to give up our happiness as individuals, and suffer instead for the sake of some others, even if we don't know them. My hat's off to the lobster guy, but I wish someone had strangled the first altruist before that meme got started.

And, to pull us back to the thread... Joe's article isn't about the history of Individualism, but rather about the absurdity of secularists holding onto altruism.
(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 1/28, 1:26pm)


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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 3:26pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, I agree with Joseph's broader claim. It is interesting that while altruism based in religion at least is an attempt to improve the individual - to make you a good or better person and with a promise of eternal reward - secular philosophers abandoned any claim to self-interest. Even Immanuel Kant, who attempted to argue for the Enlightenment, advocated deontology, an ethics of duty to be followed whether you benefited or not. Broadly speaking, all of Greek philosophy was about achieving the good life, about your living right to live well.

Just as we have developed significantly sophisticated understandings of astronomy and music, so, too is our ethical theory of individualism far beyond theirs. It is important to keep Aristotle in his historical context. We are embarrassed by his advocacy of slavery as natural. Karl Popper places the origin of that in Aristotle's metaphysics, which like Plato's metaphysics sought the hidden perfect form or idea or essence from which the apparent and experiential world differs, strays, and devolves. Aristotle had his own virtues as a scientist, of course. On my blog, I cite his embryology of the chick as one of history's greatest scientific experiments.

As Ayn Rand said, Aristotle was the greatest of our philosophers, despite his faults. The faults remain, nonetheless. His Nicomachean Ethics instruct you and me on how to be good and better people. As such, we are more suited to enslaving barbarians and telling women what to do.

From The Open Society and It's Enemies by Karl Popper.

"… Those sensible things which are copies or children of the same original, resemble not only this original in their Form or Idea, but also one another, as do children of the same family ; and as children are called by the name of their father, so are the sensible things, which bear the name of their Forms or Ideas … 'They are all called after them', as Aristotle says."

"Though there could be no definition of any sensible thing, as they were always changing ', there could be definitions and true knowledge of things of a different kind. ' If knowledge or thought were to have an object, there would have to be some different, some unchanging entities, apart from those which are sensible ', says Aristotle , and he reports of Plato that ' things of this other sort, then, he called Forms or Ideas, and the sensible things, he said, were distinct from them, and all called ^after them. And the many things which have the same name as a certain Form or Idea exist by participating in it." OSIE, Page 24

"It will for ever remain one of the greatest triumphs of Athenian democracy that it treated slaves humanely, and that in spite of the inhuman propaganda of philosophers like Plato himself and Aristotle it came, as he witnesses, very close to abolishing slavery." Page 36

Against this great humanitarian movement, the movement of the ' Great Generation ', as I shall call it later (chapter 10), Plato, and his disciple Aristotle, advanced the theory of the biological and moral inequality of man. Greeks and barbarians are unequal by nature ; the opposition between them corresponds to that between natural masters and natural slaves."

"In order to show this, I may first quote Aristotle, another opponent of equalitarianism, who, under the influence of Plato's naturalism, elaborated among other things the theory that some men are by nature born to slavery. Nobody could be less interested in spreading an equalitarian and individualistic interpretation of the term 'justice '. But when speaking of the judge, whom he describes as a personification of that which is just ', Aristotle maintains that it is the task of the judge to restore equality '. He tells us that ' all men think justice to be a kind of equality ', an equality, namely, which pertains to persons '. He even thinks (but here he is wrong) that the Greek word for
'justice' is to be derived from a root that means 'equal division '. And when discussing the principles of democracy, he says that ' democratic justice is the application of the principle of numerical equality (as distinct from proportionate equality) '. OSIE Page 80

It [the State to Aristotle] has higher tasks than the protection of human beings and their rights. It has moral tasks. To take care of virtue is the business of a state which truly deserves this name ', says Aristotle. If we now try to translate this criticism into the language of political demands, then we find that these people want two things. First, they
wish to make the state an object of worship. OSIE Page 99

And here, I refer you also to Jacob Bronowski's passages about the barbarian horsemen, such as the Baktriari who still follow this life, and their German counterparts in World War II. "The idea that nomads or even hunters constituted the original upper class is corroborated by the age-old and still surviving upper-class traditions according to which war, hunting, and horses, are the symbols of the leisured classes ; a tradition which formed the basis of Aristotle's ethics and politics, and is still alive, as Veblen (The Theory of the Leisure Class) and Toynbee himself have shown ; and to these traditions we can perhaps add the animal breeder's belief in racialism, and especially in the racial superiority of the upper class. The latter belief which is so pronounced in caste states and in Plato and in Aristotle is held by Toynbee to be * one of the . . sins of our . .
modern age ' and something alien from the Hellenic genius' ([Toynbee] op. cit., Ill, 93). But although many Greeks may have developed beyond racialism, it seems likely that Plato's and Aristotle's theories are based on old traditions ; especially in view of the fact that racial ideas played such a role in Sparta.page " OSIE 203

That last above about the "old forms" is crucial to the presentation in OSIE. Popper argues that Greek philosophers (many of them, anyway) were troubled by change and sought to find permanent order. This goes back to Heraclitus and is echoed Aristotle and, of course in Plato's Republic. They both wanted to establish the old, traditional ways of living and do away with the flux and flow of modern life. We see this today. The Future and Its Enemies by Virginia Postrel talks mostly about the left and the Greens, but also about the right wing, about conservatives, libertarians, and Objectivists who look forward to armageddon and apocalypse.

"This anti-equalitarianism and its devastating effects has been clearly described by W. W. Tarn in his excellent paper ' Alexander the Great and the Unity of Mankind' (Proc. of the British Acad., XIX, 1933, p. 123 ff.), Tarn recognizes that in the fifth century, there may have been a movement towards ' something better than the hard-and-fast division of Greeks and barbarians ; but, he says, this had no importance for history, because anything of the sort was strangled by the idealist philosophies. Plato and Aristotle
left no doubt about their views. Plato said that all barbarians were enemies by nature ; it was proper to wage war upon them, even to the point of enslaving . . them. Aristotle said that all barbarians were slaves by nature . .' (p. 124, italics Poppers). OSIE page 206

(Edited by Xenocles on 1/29, 3:28pm)

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/29, 3:32pm)


Post 3

Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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How come one of the editors of Mike's post above is called Xenocles? I have never even heard of such a man.

Ed
[I remember this happening before, where it appears that Mike is editing his own post under a pseudonym. That's weird.]


Post 4

Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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Hacking: Digital Media and Technological Determinism - Page 69 - Google Books Result

books.google.com/books?isbn=0745639712
Tim Jordan - 2008 - Computers
One expression of this dispersed and malleable community constructed not so much by structures as by social practices was given by the hacker Marotta in an ...
  • Online with the Superhacker

    courses.cs.vt.edu/cs3604/lib/Hacking/Superhacker.htmlCached - Similar
    Michael E. Marotta ... He hasn't read HACKERS by Steven Levy or Tracy Kidder's THE SOUL OF A ... "That's when I became a _computer_ hacker," he wrote.
  • Hacking Text Files - The Elite Hackers Site

    www.elite-hackers.com/textfilesCached - Similar
    These hacking text files are extremely rare, and the hacking methods ..... The Griffin Presents: Freedom of Data Processing Part 2 by Michael E. Marotta. feds ...
  • Hackers

    www.kreps.org/hackers/Cached
    The module examines the implications of hacking for such traditional concepts as deviancy ..... Marotta, M. E., (1993) 'Online with the Superhacker', available at ...
  • Hackers & their effect on the Irish Economy

    www.scribd.com › ResearchInternet & TechnologyCached
    Apr 11, 2010 – It is the hacking or attacking of networks and computers to obtain or modify information ... Marotta, M.E. (1993), 'online with the super hacker'.
  • I wrote this back in the days of MS-DOS to put a Fortune on my computer when I booted up.

    B4 2C                MOV AH,2C       Get the clock
    CD 21                INT 21          execute
    B0 46                MOV AL,46       Get the seconds
    F6 EE                IMUL DH         multiply the DH by the seconds   
    05 20 01             ADD AX, 0120    add 120 to that
    89 C2                MOV DX,AX       put that number in the DX register
    B4 09                MOV AH,09       display to screen
    CD 21                INT 21          execute
    BA 18 01             MOV DX, 0118    end of line
    CD 21                INT 21          execute
    CD 20                INT 20          quit
    Code and data are pretty much the same thing to the computer.  Data is just dumb code and code is just smart data... sometimes so smart that it can replicate itself.
     
    To graduate with a BS, I had to take one computer literacy class, and I could have taken Introduction to Windows, but I took Java instead.  That was 2008.  Last fall, I took a community ed class in Ruby on Rails.
     
    But computer languages are just simpler kinds of human languages, really.  Waiting at the bus stop with my neighbors, I could not get a handle on what they were speaking.  So, I asked poilitely, and they said "Uzbek."  The next morning, I greeted them in Uzbek.
     



    Post 5

    Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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    Whew!

    Thank god you're a hacker. For a minute, I thought you had multiple personalities and your other personalities they ... they all had these cool, Ancient-Greek names ... but they ... they, sometimes ... disagreed with things you wrote here (so they edited you). Now, I don't have to think about such crazy things anymore! Thanks for clearing this up for me.

    :-)

    Ed

    p.s. It's pretty cool that they call you the Super Hacker, almost like you are some kind of a super-hero, or something. I know that you are kind of a big deal and all [See the movie: Anchor Man, where Will Ferrell's character tells a pretty lady: "You know, I'm kind of a big deal." :-)], and not just in the coin-dealing business either, but it's cool to find out about your "special powers." I'd like to think that ... if things go south, that you could work your magic and produce a little, say, computer-generated safe-haven for us to escape to? A techno-Gulch, if you will. I'm just thinking aloud here. Of course, it goes without saying that I would be on notably better behavior if something like that does go down and it is, by nature, invitation-only. I promise not to be as crass as I often am -- all harsh and judgmental, if not downright mean-spirited and cruel -- if it would, say, guarantee me a spot on the 'short list' ... if you know what I mean [wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more]. 

    :-)


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    Post 6

    Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
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    Ed,

    "Thank god you're a hacker. For a minute, I thought you had multiple personalities and your other personalities they ... they all had these cool, Ancient-Greek names ... but they ... they, sometimes ... disagreed with things you wrote here (so they edited you). Now, I don't have to think about such crazy things anymore! Thanks for clearing this up for me."

    You kill me, Ed!


    Michael,

    Those links look interesting. I'll visit them when I have more time.

    I find hacking (and the world of hacking) interesting. I find them so interesting that I hope to, one day (after I've earned my CS degree), earn a certification in ethical hacking.



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    Post 7

    Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 6:49amSanction this postReply
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    I read this book before I bought my second pc.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1575212684

    My first computer was a laser 128k apple iie compatable lol.
    My first os on my second pc was redhat linux 6.02, partitioned with a version of caldara.
    Sadly almost all the graphics programs I wanted were all windows based (except GIMP) so i later wiped it and installed windows 2000pro.
    Very sweet links Michael I look forward to reading them all!

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    Post 8

    Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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    ahem... blush...

    I am not a superhacker. That was what an author called me because he does not read what he writes about, apparently... I only interviewed another character whose publisher called him a "superhacker." He called himself The Knightmare and he called himself a hacker. I call myself a hacker, also. I mean it in the original intention as explained in laborious detail by Steven Levy in Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution. I just like figuring stuff out. We all do. Not everyone does.

    It is a careful distinction that in Atlas Shrugged and other works, Ayn Rand disparaged not the people who did not know where electricity comes from, but those who never wondered.

    Plus, I am just a software hacker. I tip my white hat to hardware hackers. My wife and I were members of the local DefCon club in Ann Arbor and one night this guy brought in an old desk phone into which he had wired his cell phone. He demurred at the praise though because it was, after all, a touchtone phone: he wanted to figure out next how to wire up a rotary dial to call out on his cell.

    BTW, Ed, I am not a coin dealer, either. As a numismatist, I am a writer. I was never much of a collector. Former ANA president Cliff Mishler called collecting "a gene you do not inherit" and I seem to lack that gene. I like history and I like owning bits of it. Speaking of "bits" I could edit this to make it look like you edited this, even link back to your page, but the last time someone did something like that about eight years ago, Joseph and Company banned them for life and RoR means more to me than one clever hack. (Oh, yes, and it would be wrong. ... almost forgot that part...)

    (Edited by One of the Other Voices in My Head on 1/31, 2:45pm)

    (Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/31, 2:47pm)


    Post 9

    Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 5:26pmSanction this postReply
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    Joseph Rowlands pointed out that modern altruists do not offer even the promise of eternal reward. (Rowlands called it "infinite" but infinite and eternal are different .) That originated with Immanuel Kant. See Kant's Ethical Theory by Merlin Jetton here.

    Jetton, Boydstun, and others speculate about the extent to which John Stuart Mill and others relied on Kant or misunderstood him. However, it is clear that whatever else, Kant did influence later philosophers to seek "pure reason" and in doing that, they abandoned objective context.

    That being true, it remains that for Marxists in general, greens in particular, and many others, some "higher good" is the goal. You are to sacrifice yourself to make the world a better place for someone (someone else) in the future. Granted, though, all you get out of it is the opportunity to feel good.

    Also, you know, in the USSR and other collectivized societies, they did memorialize heroes after a fashion. It might be the "Unknown Soldier" kind of monument or it might be more personal, as when Khrushschev kissed Yuri Gagarin for the cameras.

    (Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/31, 5:30pm)


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    Post 10

    Sunday, February 3, 2013 - 8:13amSanction this postReply
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    Alright, already, after a short and colorful segway, we are back to the topic of the thread. Good stuff.

    :-)

    That being true, it remains that for Marxists in general, greens in particular, and many others, some "higher good" is the goal. You are to sacrifice yourself to make the world a better place for someone (someone else) in the future. Granted, though, all you get out of it is the opportunity to feel good.
    You know, altruism is idealistic, like some kind of a rule-based deontology -- but it is most-often advertised as a "sacrifice-for-the-greater-good" utilitarianism. It appears that even deontology -- i.e., obedience to rules -- is subjectivist. It's always the rules that you want to obey or, in the case of evil dictators, the rules that you want others to obey so that your whims will be met. Now, it's hard to tell people that they should sacrifice "just because" -- so, in order to remedy that, evil people intentionally add unknowable "goods" to the equation. Here's what it looks like:

    Subjectivist Greenie:
    You know, you should not drive an SUV even if you like them, because the intrinsic good known as "Mother Earth" or as "Gaia" would be harmed if you do that -- and you wouldn't want to be guilty of harming Gaia, would you?

    Objectivist (reasonable) Individual:
    How do I know when I've harmed "Gaia"?

    Subjectivist Greenie:
    Well, why don't you leave that evaluation to me. I will look inside my heart, and if I have deep feelings that you've harmed Gaia -- then you've harmed Gaia. And, if I don't have these deep feelings -- these murky sentiments -- that you've done so, then you are in the clear.

    Objectivist (reasonable) Individual:
    So I have to live my life according to the dictates of your subjective whims?

    Subjectivist Greenie:
    Well, it sounds evil when you put it that way. I would rather not have to think about it in those terms. Let's just say that you should do the things that I think are good. Okay?

    Objectivist (reasonable) Individual:
    No. That is not okay. It is not okay for one individual to impose a subjective moral or ethical code (i.e., universal health care, global warming legislation, gun control, etc.) on others -- just because they have 'strong feelings' about it.
    :-)

    Ed


    Post 11

    Tuesday, February 5, 2013 - 9:39pmSanction this postReply
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    "Alright, already, after a short and colorful segway, we are back to the topic of the thread. Good stuff."

    Not that it's that important, and not to sidetrack the discussion yet again, but there is no such word as "alright." It's all right. There is such a word as "already," which is probably where "alright" came from.

    Presented in the spirit of improved communication and improved English. :-)

    Post 12

    Wednesday, February 6, 2013 - 3:17amSanction this postReply
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    Bill,

    Thanks for the correction. I'll work to unlearn the mistake.

    :-)

    Ed


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    Post 13

    Wednesday, February 6, 2013 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
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    Crap does this mean I cannot use "lol"? Now I'm "fuxored!!".

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    Post 14

    Friday, February 8, 2013 - 8:13amSanction this postReply
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    Alright, already, after a short and colorful segway, we are back to the topic of the thread.
    there is no such word as "alright." there is no such word as "alright."
     Alright is in some dictionaries, e.g. here.

    Segway is an electric vehicle (link). Segue is a transition from one topic to another (link).


    (Edited by Merlin Jetton on 2/09, 5:13am)


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    Post 15

    Friday, February 8, 2013 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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    I have no trouble reading #10 in such a way that it compares the digression to a short excursion on a Segway, after which we return, refreshed, to the topic (although in that case the word should be capitalized).

    Post 16

    Friday, February 8, 2013 - 7:06pmSanction this postReply
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    I can't stop laughing! You guys crack me up something fierce (i.e., you crack me up a lot).

    First, you got [... oh, my dear, I'm so ... sorry!]. Ahem. First, you have got effin Jules with his light-hearted-though-mendacious wiseassery, then ... as if that wasn't enough ... you are awarded with the pedantic presentations of master Merlin, who can tell you that you are not only half-wrong about being right, but that there is an even-better way (or that there is even a better way) for you to have been right in the first place -- a way which is very likely thoroughly correct (or just: perfectly correct, to be more precise), and ... to top it off ... Peter chimes in to make it clear to all who care, that there is actually a more informed, broad-minded and panoramic way to view this recent course of events -- a way which catches and integrates things which others here have missed, because of their distinct-though-possibly-intentional lack of perspective on the matter.

    Oh man. You can't make stuff like this up!

    :-)

    Ed
    [Caveat: I'm not sure that one of those words means what I think it means.]


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