RoR: Forum

Like all bad laws, this one achieves the exact opposite of its stated intention. Rather than making Minnesota "safe for bullion" they are preventing all coin sales to anyone from Minnesota.

guess that was the point all along ... so Minnesota is off the map?

Post 1

Saturday, August 2, 2014 - 6:48am

As soon as the legislation was enacted last year, the Classical Numismatic Group sent out this email. The CNG is easily the largest dealer of ancient coins in the USA. They are part of the Seaby firm, the oldest numismatic house in the world. The market for ancient Greek and Roman coins is hardly the Comex for gold and silver. However, the dollar value should not be underestimated. Of course, we here also understand that it does not matter how large or small the person or firm is when a law like this makes business impossible. On some of the coin discussion boards, some collectors said, "Oh, it only affects dealers..." Again, we know better. Soon, they will, too...

We are writing to you with great regret to inform you that Classical Numismatic Group - CNG - will no longer be able to do business with customers in Minnesota, as a result of a change in Minnesota law. For customers whose current address of record is in Minnesota, we will only be able to continue doing business with you if you qualify under one of the exemptions under the law or if you change your address to an address outside Minnesota.

[...]

The law defines a bullion coin as any coin containing more than one percent by weight of silver, gold, platinum, or other precious metal. Accordingly, the law will apply to a large percentage of the ancient, medieval, and early modern coins that CNG sells. The law places numerous restrictions on business in bullion coins, to the extent that CNG – along with other dealers in historical coins -- will no longer be able to do business with most customers located in Minnesota. The law comes into effect on August 1, 2013.

In order to comply with this law, CNG will decline any business with Minnesota residents after July 31, 2013. There are two exceptions to the law that may enable us to continue to do business in certain cases. First, the law does not apply in the case of occasional trade shows where the customer is present and the transaction is made at the show. Accordingly, we will continue to do business with our Minnesota customers who come to see us at the shows we attend. In addition, there is an exception for wholesale transactions with bullion coin dealers who sell at retail and are properly registered under the law. If you qualify as a bullion coin dealer under the law and wish to continue to do business with CNG, please write to us with a statement of your dealer status and your assurance that you are acting in compliance with Minnesota law.

In addition, we can continue to do business with customers whose address is outside Minnesota. If you have an address outside Minnesota and would like to do business from that address, please notify us with a request that we ship all your future purchases to that address.

Finally, we would like to appeal to all Minnesota numismatists to contact their lawmakers and urge them to modify the law, so that Minnesotans can continue to benefit from the enjoyment and cultural enrichment that come with the collection and study of historical coins. We hope that the law will be changed soon, and we look forward to the opportunity to continue the many longstanding relationships we have with Minnesota customers.

Yours sincerely,

The Staff at CNG

Classical Numismatic Group Inc

PO Box 479

Lancaster PA 17608

Post 2

Saturday, August 2, 2014 - 6:54am

http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/439f096/were-dropping-minnesota

Vera fragtet: "guess that was the point all along ... so Minnesota is off the map?"

Is that a reference to Eugene Lawson's line in Atlas Shrugged Part III? "We're dropping Minnesota."

Post 3

Saturday, August 2, 2014 - 9:43am

nope - movie hasn't reached across the pond yet (still waiting for part II to arrive here) ... but another point for AS - AR knew it all all along :D

Thanx :)

Post 4

Sunday, August 3, 2014 - 5:59pm

"Other dealers told them that they were closing their companies rather than registering or that they were changing their businesses so that they would no longer be required to register. One coin dealer said he was publicly refusing to register, hoping to be charged with failure to register and then take the matter up in the courts. The operators of two coin shows scheduled in Minnesota in July reported that the number of tables sold had fallen sharply compared to their previous events – with virtually no dealers coming from outside the state." - Numismatic News for July 1, 2014 here.

Post 5

Saturday, August 9, 2014 - 9:58am

LIBERTY PARENT OF SCIENCE & INDUSTRY is the legend on the obverse. Heritage Auctions is offering a rare 1792 Silver-Center cent, technically a pattern coin of the US Mint, in its upcoming September 3-7, 2014, Long Beach Sale. All 26 known specimens have been accounted for, and tallied at auctions. Of those 14 have been "plated" (photographed and published). Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins asserted that only 12 were genuine, the others being "dangerous counterfeits" by which Breen might have meant that they were struck later at the Mint from original dies for friends of the Mint management, a common practice of the time.

These Silver Center Cent coins range in condition from Very Fine to Uncirculated and price between $250,000 and an expected One MIllion Dollars for this Uncirculated (PCGS 61) example. This coin weighs about 70 grains and contains about 2.48 grains of silver. It is bullion by Minnesota law and to be sold, the seller has to inform of the buyer of the precious metal content and the market value of the precious metal content. At today's price of silver ($22 high), that is about 11 cents of silver.

Realize that this law was passed to protect Minnesotans from "scams" run by "bullion investment" firms. So, if you are from Minnesota, and have a million dollars, do not buy this coin. It is only "worth" 11 cents, not a million dollars.

Heritage Auctions

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 8/09, 10:01am)

Post 6

Tuesday, August 12, 2014 - 2:14pm

"I heard multiple complaints at the ANA [convention in Chicago this week] that Minnesota collectors were turned away from doing business with many dealers, simply because of the state where they live."

Dealers close down in Minnesota by Patrick A. Heller. Numismatic News. August 11, 2014. Online.

Repeated surveys in Minnesota report a high approval for this new law ...

Preliminary indications are that a high percentage of Minnesota coin dealers, perhaps as much as half of them, are closing their operations. One dealer predicted that the aggressive tactics used to hassle dealers attending coin shows in Minnesota will destroy all but two shows across the state. Since several of the shows that will cease provide financial support to local coin clubs, there is a good chance that several of these clubs will disappear.

Post 7

Friday, August 15, 2014 - 12:39am

Really disgusting.

But here's something interesting: Back in the 1980's, I bought some gold coins from a dealer located in Minneapolis who appeared at a libertarian/Objectivist free-market convention. I don't remember the name of the company, but they were very vocal about advertising their free-market philosophy, so I trusted them. Anyway, I bought three one-ounce Krugerrands for approximately $400 an ounce and was told by the company that if I accumulated 10 ounces with them, they would waive the shipping charge to California and, since Minnesota didn't tax the purchase of gold, I would get it tax free as well.

So I left the coins with the company, intending to buy more, but later decided to cash in two of the three ounces, because I wanted to buy some new furniture. As it turned out, it was a good thing I did, because shortly thereafter, I received a letter stating that company was in Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings. The SEC had evidently raided their offices only to discover that there was no gold on the premises. They had apparently shipped it off to the Bahamas! I was fortunate to recover $135 dollars out of the $400 or so of the one remaining coin that I'd left in their possession.

Needless to say, I learned my lesson as a naive neophyte bullion purchaser that if I were going to buy gold, I should take possession of it, which is the whole point of buying the metal rather than the gold stocks.

I wonder how much of a bearing this kind of fraud had on the state's decision to impose a heavy tax on the sellers of precious metals and thus discourage their sale. If it had any bearing at all, it is the honest dealers who are being punished for the actions of the dishonest ones. Where is the justice in that?!

(Edited by William Dwyer on 8/15, 12:48am)

Post 8

Wednesday, October 29, 2014 - 3:55pm

According to this article, it looks like a lot of big gold dealers are turning Minnesota gold investors away. What's the over/under on a repeal or adjustment of this new law? https://www.certifiedgoldexchange.com/minnesotas-coin-dealer-law-cge-you/

Post 9

Sunday, November 2, 2014 - 6:19pm

Buy it out of state and smuggle it in. Screw the law, set up a black market and make money off of it.

It is an immoral law and should be fought by all means.

Post 10

Monday, November 3, 2014 - 6:22am

Jules, you do not understand what is going on here. Have you ever read "Galt's Speech"? The dealers are not interested in getting around the law. They are complying with it. "You say that we are swindlers? We will not swindle the people of Minnesota any longer. We refuse to do business with them. "

Mary, this law has been fought with opinions to legislators since it was first enacted over a year ago. Despite the election cycle, no change was in progress. So, the dealers are complying with the law, completely, fully, and consistently by no longer selling to people from Minnesota. I know dealers outside of the state who will not do business with a customer across the counter, if the customer is from Minnesota. This is a producer's strike.

Post 11

Tuesday, November 4, 2014 - 3:59pm

I followed the link that Mary Jones posted above. That article did not say that Certified Gold Exchange is embargoing Minnesota, but I wanted clarification. Today, I spoke to John Halloran their senior gold advisor. He called the Minnesota law "communist." He said that his firm does everything they can to screen out inquiries from Minnesota including people who come in from Google searches. I also received an email from him: "No we do not deal with clients that are residence [sic] of Minnesota."

Post 12

Tuesday, November 4, 2014 - 8:29pm

Clearly MEM I was talking about the citizens of Minnesota that this law is punishing...they should go out of state, set up a bullshit box# seeing as no dealers will sell to them, and they should just order and have it delivered out of state.... And then doo what ever the hell they want with the coins.

Post 13

Tuesday, November 4, 2014 - 10:05pm

I got you Jules. You are looking at it from the view of the state citizen having the right to buy gold from those who are willing to sell it.

The point Marotta was making, if I understood him correctly, is that sellers are, in effect, on strike regarding the state of Minnesota who keeps electing and supporting politicians who would do this. They want to be very clear that they won't deal with people from a state that would do this to them.

In terms of individual rights, both views are correct. A citizen of Minnesota that wants to buy gold should find a way to ignore that "communist" state government and go around them. And if I were a seller of gold, I might choose to boycott the citizens of that state, which would be within my individual rights. Or, as you suggest, I might choose to find a way around the state government and sell to those citzens in a black market - a legal risk, but also within my moral rights.

Post 14

Tuesday, November 4, 2014 - 11:56pm

Yes!

Not all people in that state would have voted for the scum suckers that pushed that law through, clearly a case of the tyranny of the majority over the minority. Unjust laws should be fought by all means necessary, including ignoring them and even profiting off of them until the stench reaches the noses of those that caused them, as well as by those who can strike them down. That law is so blatantly UN-American it makes me sick.

Post 15

Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 3:04am

Not all the people in the United States supported Directive 10-289, yet the producers went on strike. Perhaps the honest people of Minnesota should leave that state to the looting majority.

Post 16

Wednesday, November 5, 2014 - 8:32pm

Voting with one's feet is always a good way of showing your ire!

Post 17

Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 5:17am

At the Central States Numismatic Society annual convention this past April 20, Minnesota coin dealer and ANA governor Gary Adkins reported on a bill in the Minnesota legislature to exempt precious metals from sales tax. This was recorded as a CoinWeek video. The video was copied and posted by several investment websites. However, that bill did not become law. In fact, I believe that it was not likely to. The Minnesota legislature has a 120-day calendar that expired on May 18 of this year.

Post 18

Tuesday, September 22 - 4:17pm