About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 10:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

A Rational Defense of Marriage

G. Stolyarov II

The Rational Argumentator-- A Journal for Western Man-- Issue XXII-- June 11, 2004

 

http://www.geocities.com/rationalargumentator/marriage.html

 

Introduction

 

An institution respected and existing unquestioned for millennia has now come under fire from groups as varied in convictions as left-liberals and Objectivists. Some would wish to redefine its scope, others-- to diminish the commitment its undertaking requires, and other still—to abolish it altogether. Those who purport to defend it in “mainstream culture” have nevertheless seldom pondered the matter systematically, resorting to either a traditionalist or a religious basis, which in itself are riddled with fallacies and unable to pinpoint, much less preserve, the precise values that the continued existence of marriage represents. It is no wonder that the proponents of “marriage reform” are winning both the legal and attitudinal battles, as the recent decision of the Massachusetts Supreme Court to grant same-sex unions the designation, “marriage,” demonstrates. The case for marriage requires logical argumentation from the fundamentals, an explication of the terms involved and the values at stake. This treatise shall endeavor to establish a formulation not embracing an appeal to divine authority to present its case. Nevertheless, individuals of any religious convictions or lack thereof would be able to pursue the defense of their marriages under a just social order where these principles would be applied.

 

Marriage in the “pre-reform” sense, has been an option in almost every sedentary human society since the Neolithic revolution. No matter how varied the convictions prevailing in those cultures, the need for marriage was seen as essential as the need for food or water. To less filosofically developed peoples of the pre-Enlightenment epochs, there seemed no need to delve into its meaning any more than to delve into the meaning of a log of wood. They used both to establish a firm domestic situation, and this, to their concrete-bound mentalities, was all that mattered. More advanced thinkers, however, wish to analyze the universal aspects of marriage that rendered this stability possible. The lengthy existence of marriage is not in itself a warrant for its continued existence, nor its continued existence in the same form, unless the aforementioned form has provided the optimal realization of individual values. This is indeed a question exploring which is an urgent necessity. But first it is necessary to know what the historical definition of marriage is.  Excluding, for a moment, the anomalous societies where polygamy was practiced, the almost universal definition of marriage prior to our time had been the exclusive economic union between a male and a female, undertaken with the assumption of permanent duration and granting the couple authorization to bear children.

Immediately after this postulation, a number of questions arise that a proponent of marriage under such a definition would need to answer affirmatively. Is exclusivity in a relationship necessary? Is permanence in a relationship necessary? Are shared economic and romantic responsibilities in a relationship a necessary package? Is official authorization needed to have children? Does government enforcement of a marriage contract need to occur? Is it necessary to restrict the marriage contract to one between two individuals of opposite genders? The burden of the marriage proponent is to answer these questions in the affirmative without proposing the violation of rights of any individual, including persons of same-sex preferences, whose contract-making capacity needs to be protected by the government to the same degree as that of any other individual. Hence arises another question: can the above definition of marriage be retained and legally recognized, while still maintaining equality under the law for those persons? This treatise shall reveal that, indeed, this is possible.

 

The Fundamentals

 

The ethics of marriage can be deduced from the Objectivist ethics of self-interest and individualism. According to Objectivism, the ultimate beneficiary of a moral action by a given individual should be that individual. Interacting with others, a moral individual must keep this goal in mind and respect a similar goal as the legitimate pursuit of all other volitionally conscious entities. Hence, all interpersonal relationships should be based on the trader principle, or a bilateral, consensual exchange of values between the parties involved. A romantic relationship is bound by this principle, if anything, to a far greater extent than other interactions, since it is a relationship of the greatest possible proximity between two individuals. As I had defined it in “The Public-Private Ethical Distinction,” “romantic love is the volitionally engendered, exclusive, and intense attraction between two individuals based on mutually beneficial material and intellectual/spiritual considerations.”

 

In order for this definition to validly characterize a relationship, another concept needs to be introduced, which I shall dub optimal compatibility. Optimal compatibility is the state in which the material and intellectual/spiritual attributes of two persons, as well as the values derived from those attributes, can be exchanged in entirety via the trader principle and still benefit both parties involved. Optimal compatibility need not be a utopian vision of absolute perfection in a relationship—disagreements, differences in character, and minor quarrels do not impede optimal compatibility so long as the totality of each individual’s values to be offered still brings an unparalleled net benefit to the other. Optimal compatibility is not an easy objective to accomplish, nor is it present in a majority of relationships today. However, it is attainable, as historical relationships, such as those of George and Martha Washington, Andrew and Rachel Jackson, and Ronald and Nancy Reagan demonstrate.

 

Exclusivity

 

Is exclusivity in a relationship necessary?

 

Consider this: by the distinct nature of all individuals, it must be that only a single person of the opposite gender can exist whose dispositional, intellectual, and material endowments are best compatible with one’s own, and, self-evidently, it is with that person that one is fittest to enter a domestic partnership of mutual reinforcement. This does not mean that one needs to travel around the world to discover that one individual. Often, compatibility between two persons can be increased as a result of familiarity over a vast span of time. No individual, try as he may, can wear the entirety of his mind’s contents on his sleeve. Nor can he explicate his life’s filosofy in its full depth and expanse during one dinner conversation. A man’s mind is either a store of treasures amassed over a lifetime, or a rubbish heap of junk stuffed there by someone else through the retainer’s passive consent. If it is the former, what treasures are contained? Let the seeker try rummaging through a vast bank vault of gold bars, coins, and precious stones and see how long a time analyzing every single component will occupy. Then, let him add into consideration the factor that this vault is sentient, and each of its contents can only be analyzed with its permission. How long will the process of convincing it to reveal its secrets last? This is why “love at first sight,” much lauded in the conventional culture, is not only impractical but impossible. The greatest key to optimal compatibility between two individuals is familiarity over time. This is the surest means of ascertaining what values the other individual has to offer and whether these values are worth pursuing.

 

Time is perhaps the single most valuable commodity possessed by an individual; it is that dimension of existence in which his actions, of any sort, are materialized. It is that property of reality which allows him to invest his efforts into a given task and see the product of those investments materialize. As stated above, the time investment into forging optimal compatibility in a relationship is inherently enormous. There needs to be initial similarity on certain fundamental value-premises, which must be recognized explicitly. Then, the task becomes the creation of a working partnership on the basis of shared principles. The intention in a romantic relationship must always be to approach the other party genuinely and to exchange as many values as humanly possible. This is a commitment that, in order to reach to the fullest depth of the values that the other individual can offer, must remain exclusive and unshared. No other soul must venture into that precise dimension which is shared between a husband and wife. No comparable time investment into any living personality other than oneself and one’s partner should be made in quite the same manner (this does not concern other types of relationships, such as those between friends, siblings, and parents and children; these are different sferes of human relations with different values to be traded). To marry two women would imply insufficient payment to each for their attentions; to share a wife with another would render one the victim of such scant rewards. Both cases destruct the mutual compatibility of domestic partners. This is why, except in the harems of decadent feudal overlords and playboys, polygamy, even in countries where it was legal, had been shunned by the majority of men.  

 

Is exclusivity in a relationship necessary?

 

Yes!

 

Permanence

 

Is permanence in a relationship necessary?

 

Time happens to be a finite commodity in the lives of humans today; this may not forever be the case. No matter how much time one has, however, it is prudent to invest it into one romantic relationship as opposed to many. Why? Because optimal compatibility is not a static condition! Once more, it increases with familiarity over time. The longer a time period is spent within a relationship, the firmer this compatibility, the greater the knowledge possessed by each partner of the other’s interests, that they may be shared, of the other’s sources of displeasure, that they may be avoided, of the other’s manner of acting, that it may be accurately interpreted, of the other’s ideology, that it may be logically extrapolated, of the other’s ambitions, that they may be pursued and attained with loyalty and diligence.

 

The man who establishes a marriage contract is like a frugal investor: he spends his money/energy moderately and invests the rest bit by bit to amplify the amount present and defend himself against possible turbulence in the future. A modicum of effort invested in a stable relationship can pay far greater interest in "emotional capital" with the other person than a gigantic one-day spending spree that leaves one with no money, stock seed, devotion, or anything else. This is why couples who have remained together for many decades have almost no major quarrels and seem nearly perfectly compatible. Certainly, during their lengthy coexistence, there occurred moments of disagreement, likely even strong disagreement, which might have severed the relationship were it not for the familiarity of the two individuals with each other. Given this familiarity, it becomes far more likely that each individual will view the disagreement as either a misunderstanding or a tolerable difference, rather than a malicious ploy to undermine the other. As Ayn Rand aptly recognized, there is no conflict of interest among fully rational persons. So long as a couple shares fundamental value-premises that are compatible with reason and individual prosperity, and takes the time to learn the precise nature of the individuals involved, clashes will be less likely to occur and, even when they do, will be seen as mere potholes on the path, to be filled by the far more powerful road-paver that is the marriage relationship.

 

Certain opponents of permanence in marriage will claim that “individuals grow and change over time” and what may once have been a compatible relationship is no longer such because of this “growth” in one of the parties involved. First, I ask, what “growth” is this that acts to the detriment of one’s ability to attain values from a previously productive relationship? If anything, it is not growth, but rather a decline in one’s abilities to benefit one’s very self! Moreover, marriage as a relationship, under the “historical” definition, is available only to adult individuals for a reason. Adults are assumed to have matured to the point of developing entirely their own hierarchy of value-premises. The remainder of their lives is to be devoted to actualizing these premises in practice, through work, relationships, and all other interests. Those who do not yet have a soundly defined hierarchy of values, but are still in the process of forming it, are not yet prepared to undertake a romantic commitment; they cannot judge another individual to be optimally compatible with them because they are not fully aware of what this optimal compatibility will constitute!

 

Alas, if only the majority of adults today lived up to the responsibilities of rational thought and living that their autonomy requires of them! If only they had bothered to develop a systematic hierarchy of value-premises rather than live on the spur of the moment, guided by any arbitrary, self-contradictory hash stuffed into them by mainstream culture! And of the ones that do have an inkling of systematic thought, if only they could analyze the candidate for a romantic relationship with the most thorough scrutiny before committing themselves to the marriage endeavor! These are choices that these individuals must make of their own accord, for such decisions are necessary prerequisites to a successful permanent relationship. Let them wait and introspect and “grow and change” before they enter the lifelong commitment of marriage. But by no means need we disparage the very concept of a permanent relationship simply because some are unready to enter one. Half the marriages in the present era fail, not because marriage itself is flawed, but because the individuals rushing into it are. As Ayn Rand (who spent fifty years in a successful partnership with Frank O’Connor) would have said, if you find your world not to live up to the standards of the world envisioned in the concept of marriage, do not check its premises; check yours. 

 

An attitude of indiscriminate “sampling” of relationships is counterproductive and saps the very ability of an individual to invest his energies into a firm partnership. Yet it is granted that, in some instances, even the best-intentioned individuals can make the error of rushing into relationships too quickly. They may discover that the resulting marriage is not merely devoid of values, but presents actual harm to their individual interests. For their initial mistake, they need not be penalized permanently, and a divorce can be granted to them as an emergency measure, just as sometimes children must be separated from abusive parents. But the intention of a marriage relationship is permanence; it is not proper to enter one with the expectation that it will someday be dissolved. That is analogous to initiating a bank account with the expectation of the bank collapsing someday. For an individual rejecting the flimsy, hedonistic “live for today” attitude and considering the values to be gained during the totality of his life, a permanent relationship is the sole means of accomplishing an everlasting fulfillment in the romantic sfere. No man is obligated, either legally or morally, to enter a romantic relationship in the first place, but, if he does seek one, he should exercise the moral fortitude and consistency to render it everlasting.

 

Is permanence in a relationship necessary? 

 

Yes!

 

Romance and Economics

 

Are shared economic and romantic responsibilities in a relationship a necessary package?

 

We have already determined that a romantic relationship is of the highest proximity possible between two individuals, and that it ought to be exclusive and permanent. All of this is necessary in order to establish optimal compatibility through familiarity over time. But an individual’s life involves actions outside the romantic sfere that must be undertaken in order to ensure his survival and prosperity. The microeconomic realm of a household is concerned precisely with attaining the material requirements for individual flourishing. The household contains the property which an individual can apply most directly to himself. He can turn on his computer and type up a filosofical treatise. He can sit by the side of his piano and compose a melody. He can open his refrigerator and prepare himself a meal. While, at his workplace, especially if an individual owns a business, he may possess other property, this property ultimately aims to furnish property for the household that the individual can directly take advantage of. The household is also the repository of the individual’s personal finances, which are directed to the purchase of property which he can most directly employ. In summation, it is the most proximate economic sfere to that individual. It is also the sfere into which the majority of an individual’s time is invested.

 

But how can an individual invest the majority of his time into the most proximate economic sfere and simultaneously invest the majority his time into the most proximate romantic sfere? This is only attainable by overlapping the two realms. Only thus will it be possible to receive genuine satisfaction in both of them. Optimal compatibility between two individuals involves intimate awareness of all the critical aspects of those individuals’ activities, and, if such an integral sfere as the economic management of the household is left out, optimal compatibility cannot occur; the individuals’ knowledge of each other is incomplete. To separate the mind from the body, the spiritual from the material, is improper, it is to create the deadly ghost-corpse dichotomy that Ayn Rand repeatedly warned about. In order for familiarity between two individuals to be established, it must be forged in the material realm as well. What material objects does one’s partner enjoy, and what monetary allocations need to be made for them? What objects does one’s partner consider critical to assuring his/her happiness in his/her daily life? If the exchange of values is a defining component of a romantic relationship, how can one assist his/her partner in furnishing these material values? Each couple must discover the unique answers to these questions, which is possible only in a shared household with shared economic responsibilities.

 

The reason why marriage is primarily an economic contract, though it solidifies a romantic relationship, is because the romantic attraction between two individuals was already present prior to the initiation of marriage, though it should become fortified as the relationship endures over time. Marriage creates the economic arrangements by which a shared household can be established. It permits for shared property, shared finances, the prerogative of each partner to act economically on behalf of the household, as well as the ability of one partner to be informed of the other’s economic decisions without violating any rights to privacy. Partners in a married couple are not strangers, and privacy is not violated when any economic decision made by one is shared with the other. Such disclosure of information is clearly inappropriate where the general society is concerned, and the marriage contract exists to distinguish, in an economic sense, one’s partner from the general society.

 

Are shared economic and romantic responsibilities in a relationship a necessary package?

 

Yes!

 

Marriage and Children

 

Is official authorization needed to have children?

 

No one has the obligation to bear children, and simply because a couple is in a married relationship does not imply that it must have children by any means. This is a decision that must be made by both individuals in the couple and must weigh the values that the child would bring against the expenses that its presence would incur. But, once a child is conceived, there comes about the parental obligation to assure its transition to autonomy.

 

Objectivist psychologist Nathaniel Branden explains the necessity of parental obligation:

 

“A child is the responsibility of his parents, because (a) they brought him into existence, and (b) a child, by nature, cannot survive independently. (The fact that the parents might not have desired the child, in a given case, is irrelevant in this context; he is nevertheless the consequence of their chosen actions—a consequence that, as a possibility, was foreseeable.)

 
The essence of parental responsibility is: to equip the child for independent survival as an adult. This means, to provide for the child's physical and mental development and wellbeing: to feed, clothe and protect her; to raise her in a stable, intelligible, rational home environment, to equip him intellectually, training him to live as a rational being; to educate him to earn his livelihood (teaching him to hunt for instance, in a primitive society; sending him to college, perhaps, in an advanced civilization). When the child reaches the age of legal maturity and/or when she has been educated for a career, parental obligation ends. Thereafter, parents may still want to help their child, but he or she is no longer their responsibility.” (Nathaniel Branden, Interview with Karen Reedstrom, April 5, 1998)

This obligation is not to be taken lightly; it is the child’s warrant for obtaining full economic security during its time of dependence on the parents. This is the responsibility of ­both parents and not merely one; no one parent is to be obliged to bear the entirety of the burden of the child’s upbringing on him/herself. But this economic security can be given the child only if it exists in the first place! It can be shared by the two parents only if they have a shared household with shared economic responsibilities. Only the economic contract of marriage permits them to jointly endow the child with economic security in a harmonious, non-conflicting manner. Only the stability of marriage will permit the child to enjoy the company of both the mother and the father without needing to be shipped over to the mother’s house for a week while being denied the company of the father, or vice versa.  Moreover, only the cooperation between two parents in a marriage will permit the child to obtain the necessary values for embarking onto an independent, rational life.

 

Consider this: the two genders are equal in individual rights and prerogatives to action, but this does not deny the self-evident proposition that they are not identical. Nor is the role of the mother in the upbringing of the child identical to the role of the father. The mother, for example, is the only individual that can bear the child in the first place. The mother is the child’s closest companion during the first year of its life, and no infant, in my experience, could ever stand to be separated from its mother for any lengthy period of time. Afterward, the mother continues to give the child instruction and reinforcement and to treat it with gentleness, in order to assure it that it lives in a benevolent universe where it, as an individual, possesses doubtless value. The father, in his instruction to the child, should rather treat it with ­­firmness, demonstrating a consistency of principle and intensity of devotion to the child, but also exhibiting a certain formality in his approach and not necessarily entering the intimate sfere of this child’s existence that the mother had known from the womb. The mother’s show of love could be a hug or a kiss; the father’s is more frequently a pat on the back. Both components of upbringing are complementary and mutually reinforcing; they are best realized if they occur simultaneously within the same household. A child’s ego requires both comfort and security within, as well as strength and dedication externally.

 

If an economically secure home with both parents present is the best possible place to raise a child, and the marriage contract brings a couple into a single home and provides arrangements for shared economic security, what better aegis to raise a child under than a marriage contract? What better mechanism exists that compounds all the factors necessary for the adequate fulfillment of parental obligation? Since the beneficent material and spiritual effects of parental care are a child’s expectation by right, and it is the function of the government to protect individual rights, it is the function of the government to ensure that parental obligations are not violated. It is the function of the government to attempt, in a manner minimally intrusive to anyone’s privacy, to ensure that every child lives under the guardianship of a married couple. Recognizing that Big Brother methods such as spy cameras, public education behemoths, and weekly visits by state counselors are subversive of individual liberty, the most effective and moral way to ascertain that parental obligation is met is to require marriage as a precondition for having children legitimately! The legitimate/illegitimate distinction among children has existed in nearly every Western culture to date, and for a reason; a child born in a married relationship where it can be sustained is a joy to be celebrated; a child born out of wedlock is yet another disruption in a sea of turbulence and uncertainty. Of course, once a child is conceived, in wedlock or out of it, parents have the obligation to raise it to autonomy or, if incapable of doing so, to transfer the care of the child to someone else. If the parents get married after bearing the child and are able to care for it in the stable setting established under such a marriage, then the status of the child’s illegitimacy can be removed. In the vast majority of such instances, government would do well to encourage late marriages of this sort as alternatives to no marriages whatsoever. It is better to make a mistake and reverse it than to continue amplifying it.

 

It is, of course, also the right of the child to be free of parental abuse. Thus, despite the fact that parental obligation involves a married relationship between the parents, divorce in families with one or more children present should not be ruled out as an option, if one of the parents can clearly be demonstrated in a court of law to be of detriment to the child and/or his/her spouse.  However, the criteria for granting such a divorce should be far more stringent than those for a divorce where only the lives of the two individuals separating would be affected. In the latter case, a mere discovery of the unlikelihood of optimal compatibility should suffice as evidence in a court of law that the relationship should be discontinued at the consent of both parties. However, when a child’s right to a materially and intellectually sound upbringing enters the picture, it must trump all other considerations except those of the fysical safety of the parents. I would propose that, outside of cases of clear abuse and harm to the child or one of the parents in the relationship, divorces should not be granted to couples with children until the children reach functional maturity. The child has done nothing to deserve the penalty of insufficient parental care, and thus should not be permitted in a court of law to incur such a punishment.

 

Objectivists cannot legitimately argue against this ideal by calling the requirements of parents in certain situations to be a “sacrifice” of their individual prerogatives. Branden states:

 

“One of the cruelest injustices that parents can perpetrate is to reproach a child for being a financial burden or for requiring time and attention, as if the child's legitimate needs were an imposition on them-to complain to the child of the ‘sacrifices’ made for his or her sake, as if the child were to feel apologetic or guilty-to state or imply that the child's mere existence is an unfair strain, as if the child had any choice in the matter.” (Nathaniel Branden, Interview with Karen Reedstrom, April 5, 1998)

 

Is official authorization needed to have children? 

 

Yes!

 

Marriage and Government

 

Does government enforcement of a marriage contract need to occur?

 

The three legitimate functions of government, according to the Objectivist system of laissez-faire capitalism, are the military, the police, and the courts of law. One of the critical functions of the courts is the enforcement of voluntary contracts made between individuals. So crucial is this activity that other laissez-faire economists of our time, most notably Milton Friedman, have cited it as the fourth legitimate sfere of government activity as a means of emfasizing its importance. Whether we consider it a fourth function or a subset of the third, its need becomes evident. In a contract, individuals put forth the terms of their value-trade and bring about a legally binding instrument for resolving instances wherein one of the parties defaults on its promise. It becomes the function of the courts to uphold the contract in the event of violation and to dictate the penalties for such infraction either as determined explicitly in the contract or by the impartial judgment of the court. Friedman once wrote that the function of the government in this case is that of a referee; the government lets the individuals alone to “play the game” according to the rules those individuals had agreed to, but, once one or more of those rules is infringed upon, the government arbitrates the process in an attempt to bring about just compensation and mitigation of harms.

 

So, what precisely is a legitimate means of government enforcement of the marriage contract? If a marriage proceeds according to expectations, and there are scant, if any, conflicts, the government’s immediate services are not necessary. Both parties are playing the game by the rules, and the referee needs to but stand by and do nothing. He merely needs to be aware of the fact that couple had signed a marriage contract in the first place. But if the participants of a marriage come to view the contract’s terms as violated, or wish to seek the termination of a marriage via a divorce, they must appeal to the courts in order to do so. Whim is not a justification for terminating a pre-formulated exchange of values. The courts must determine that an infringement of contract has indeed occurred, that the continued marriage is no longer viable, and that a termination should be granted. It is the obligation of the courts to hear the statements of both individuals to this effect, as well as to resolve how previously shared property and responsibilities must now be apportioned between the separating individuals in a manner consistent with the original contract.

 

Does government enforcement of a marriage contract need to occur?

 

Yes, if by enforcement, it is meant that the services of government should always exist as a recourse in the event that something in the marriage goes amiss.

 

Male and Female

 

Is it necessary to restrict the marriage contract to one between two individuals of opposite genders?

 

Let the reader note that the question to be answered here is not, “Is the romantic relationship between two individuals of opposite genders the only valuable one or the most valuable one?” It is not my purpose to defend such an assertion, nor do I agree with it. Nor is it the government’s purpose to restrict the contractual liberties of same-sex couples. Indeed, these individuals, like any other volitionally conscious entities, must be given equal protection of their rights by the government. This is not a question of ethics; I have no ethical objection to the conduct of those individuals. Indeed, to quote Bill O’Reilly, “I just want [them] to lead a good life.” But I do harbor objections to the notion of a “homosexual marriage,” not on ethical grounds, but on far more fundamental metafysical ones.

 

The critical inquiry on this issue is not, “Is a heterosexual relationship better than a homosexual one?” but rather “Are the two relationships different?” Upon even the most rudimentary examination, one will find that, indeed, they are different, and inherently and inextricably so.

 

For example, a heterosexual relationship grants the couple the potential, though not the obligation, to bear children. This potential is not granted in a homosexual relationship. Marriage, to date, has been, in part, a legal sanction for the creation of children, something that would be irrelevant in a contractual union between homosexuals.

 

Moreover, as already mentioned, the two genders may be equal, but they are not identical. They are not identical fysically, nor do they necessarily emfasize the same qualities in a relationship. In the raising of a child, the female’s emfasis on gentleness and the male’s emfasis on firmness is merely an example of a far more complex set of differences that actualizes itself within any possible relationship. (Note the word emfasis; neither quality is the exclusive dominion of a given gender, but rather persons of one gender tend to focus on a given quality more than those of another.) A man’s relationship to his brother is not the same as his relationship to his sister, and would certainly not be the same as a woman’s relationship to her brother, and her relationship to her sister. Thus, a relationship between a male and a female cannot be the same as the relationship between a male and a male or a female and a female. Examples abound of productive, stable, mutually reinforcing relationships of all these sorts, including those where homosexual and heterosexual unions had brought nothing but happiness and progress to all parties involved. But this does not mean that one should call his sister a brother, nor does it mean that one should call a homosexual relationship a marriage. One of these things is not like the other!  

 

Certainly, there are similarities. A man’s brother and his sister would both share the same biological parents with him. They would be exposed to the upbringing provided by those parents. Correspondingly, both a heterosexual permanent union and a homosexual permanent union would require an economic contract permitting for shared property, shared finances, and shared prerogatives to action. This is currently fulfilled under a “civil union” for homosexuals, without the need to designate their bond a marriage.

 

Nevertheless, it is understood that certain homosexual couples wish to recognize the romantic dimension to their relationship within the name of such a partnership, a function that the name “marriage” currently fulfills for heterosexual couples. There is no reason to deny them this option, but there is also no reason to call this relationship a marriage! Let them invent their own special name for their bond, and celebrate it in the manner they deem proper! Let them gain the consent of the State for establishing such a name as the official title of their civil union contract! I will not venture to put forth suggestions as to how this relationship should be named, as this is their prerogative and their decision, not mine.

 

But I stand adamantly in opposition to applying the term “marriage” to same-sex relationships. It is essential to recall Rand’s assertion of the crucial need for strict, unalterable definitions. These definitions serve to identify the actual existents of reality and to guard against the intrusion of the arbitrary into one’s life and conceptual framework. The “historical” definition of marriage as the exclusive economic union between a male and a female, undertaken with the assumption of permanent duration and granting the couple authorization to bear children, characterizes a unique type of relationship that is distinct in its metafysical nature from a possible permanent relationship between homosexuals. The “historical” definition characterizes a valid existent, an integrated totality of concepts. The “reformed” definition would rather lump two different types of relationships together into the same category, rendering those unfamiliar with the old definition conceptually incapable of seeing any differences between the two! This smacks of feminists’ attempts to erase the self-evident differences between males and females, or of the Oceanians’ quest to obliterate dissent by lumping any thought in opposition to the Party along with any thought about initiating fysical force into the same word, “crimethink.” This “broadening” of definitions to include anything and everything one wants, regardless of the evidence of logic and the senses, is deadly!

 

The institution of “homosexual marriage” would grant no new values to homosexuals; they already have the option of obtaining an economic contract proper to their relationship under a civil union. However, it would act to the immense detriment of real marriage, and its meaning and enforcement within the eyes of the government. This is a tactic of concept-obliteration, employed by those who would wish to undermine an institution which, as this entire treatise has borne testimony to, is a bastion of individual liberty and happiness, a supreme citadel of resistance against the intrusions of the welfare state into the private sfere of existence. It is no wonder that, ever since the “homosexual marriage legalization” campaign has emerged into the field of the general public’s awareness, every big-government-advocating leftist of every possible stripe, be he a Marxist, a feminist, an affirmative action racist, an eco-statist, or any combination of the above, jumped onto the campaign’s bandwagon almost overnight. They see abyss into which marriage can be plunged by “broadening” its definition. It is a pity that proponents of marriage seldom do. Most of them are either equipped to defend marriage from a religious perspective, which disarms them automatically before those who aptly point out the need to keep church and state separate. Or they contend that this country’s practices have historically been to recognize only unions between males and females as “marriages.” Then, they are rendered powerless by a simple, “So what? Just because it happened, does not mean it is right.

 

There are also the well-intentioned advocates of “broadening” the definition, into which category most Objectivists would likely fall. They would claim that the legalization of “homosexual marriage” would merely assure someone else’s liberties while not intervening with their own. But, as already demonstrated, no one’s liberties are being extended by this reform. Rather, in the time of a generation if not less, marriage will cease to be seen as the most fitting environment in which to raise a child, the expectation of two-parent homes with a mother and father for children will be eroded, and parental obligations will not be met by cultural default. After all, if some marriages have the potential to create children, while other marriages do not, and all marriages are treated in precisely the same manner, who is to say what marriage has to do with raising children in the first place?! If parental obligations are not met, as met they must be, the State can assume a quasi-legitimate stance for intervening into the domestic sfere to an unprecedented extent. The State can claim moral guardianship of the child where the parents (or absence thereof) had failed to provide it. The State can establish comprehensive indoctrination facilities beginning with the cradle, not the first grade, which, due to the increasing cultural perception of their necessity after the vacuum left by the destruction of the family, will eventually become mandatory. Sound familiar? The leftists have already done this with education. They will not hesitate to do this again with nursery care and the off-school hours; they only require a proper excuse.

 

Is it necessary to restrict the marriage contract to one between two individuals of opposite genders?

 

A resounding “Yes!”

 

In Summation

 

In this essay, I have answered affirmatively, from the fundamentals of such a rationally structured system as Objectivism, every question needed to ascertain the irreplaceable value of marriage as an institution. The battle for marriage as it had been, can be, and ought to be, has not yet been lost. Certain states with notably “leftist fringe” constituencies (i.e. California and Massachusetts) have legalized “same-sex marriages,” but in most others the battle is still being waged. FOX News continues to release poll after poll affirming that the majority of Americans is still opposed to the idea. They have a vague inkling of why this is so, but seldom do they exhibit a systematic, secular understanding of why marriage must be preserved under the “historical” definition. And no, “History” does not suffice as an answer! May this essay help them articulate their viewpoint. In order to survive unfettered, marriage will need all the help it can get. As Ayn Rand would say, “It is earlier than you think.” Man the defenses, advocates of Reason!


Post 1

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Greetings.

Mr. Perigo has posted very cursory objections to this piece on another thread, but apparently has not yet endeavored to clarify them. I will not allow them to go unanswered.

Mr. Perigo writes: "Over & above that, naturally I hold his position on abortion to be anti-freedom, & he often, in my view, succumbs to the deadly trap into which so many Objectviists fall - rationalism - when presenting views that are simply religious conservativism disguised in Objectivist drag (hence my use of the term "pseudo-Objectivist"). A prize example is the lengthy essay on marriage that Mr. Stolyarov has entered on the "Dissent" board here. Some of it sends shivers down my spine (for instance, the defining of appropriate degrees of affection that a father & mother respectively should allocate their offspring ... kissing's OK from Mum, but Dad should confine himself to a pat on the back. Can't have Dad being overly affectionate, now! Then again, it wasn't that long ago that Gennady was condemning mini-skirts!). If this kind of frigid formalism is Objectivism then an Objectivist I ain't!"

This will be fairly easy to refute. I never stated that Dad should CONFINE himself to a pat on the back. Kissing may be appropriate on certain occasions, but less frequently than a mother would undertake it. The text of the essay states: "The mother’s show of love could be a hug or a kiss; the father’s is more frequently a pat on the back." Note the words: more frequently. Also note another passage: "In the raising of a child, the female’s emfasis on gentleness and the male’s emfasis on firmness is merely an example of a far more complex set of differences that actualizes itself within any possible relationship. (Note the word emfasis; neither quality is the exclusive dominion of a given gender, but rather persons of one gender tend to focus on a given quality more than those of another.)" My statements here are not categorical prohibitions, but merely identifications of certain trends and guidelines, and why these make sense from the viepoint of each respective parent's relationship with the child. Can it legitimately be denied that there are in fact characteristics distinguishing with regard to gender in relationships of parenthood as well as other relationships? Look around yourself in your daily life, if you doubt this.

Moreover, how is this essay an example of "religious conservatism?" How many times do I have to write that a religious justification to marriage is futile and is not the aim of this treatise before I get the point across?

And yes, I condemn mini-skirts. Short of inducing electric shock on my neck muscles, they are the surest way to turn my head away from the person wearing them. :) But seriously, a one-liner such as that posed by Mr. Perigo is no reason to ignore the causes of my opposition. They can be found here: http://www.geocities.com/rationalargumentator/publicprivate.html.

I am
G. Stolyarov II
Atlas Count 507Atlas Count 507Atlas Count 507Atlas Count 507



Post 2

Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Greetings, Mr. Stolyarov.
 
In light of the fact that you are fending off silly accusations that your defense of marriage is nothing but religious conservatism cloaked in Objectivist garb, I probably will not help your cause by admiring it.  People here sometimes have a problem with separating the messenger from the message, but the fact is you have done a good job in making the secular case for marriage.  Even those of us for whom the religious case for marriage is primary can -- and should -- appreciate the secular case, because it is rooted in what is true of human nature without regard to belief.
 
However, don't write off completely what the religious have had to say on the topic.  I think you'll find such works as Karol Wojtyla's "Theology of the Body", a treatise on Catholic sexual ethics, objective in its examination of human nature.  Indeed, I think you could have strengthen some points, especially on exclusivity, with natural law.  On the other hand, I thought your argument for permanence was quite compelling.
 
Don't be surprise if this is all the critique your fine work receives.  Much of Objectivism is populated by people for whom sexual liberation and all its leftist tropes against traditional authority is the foundation of their libertarianism.  Economic and political liberty are of secondary interest.  Indeed, wasn't there recently a thread in this forum in which a number of participants were prepared to embrace the socialist Kerry because he is more of a libertine than the allegedly theocratic ogre Bush?
 
The reason your opponents went silent after the tussle in the thread that lead to your essay is the same reason you will meet silence here.  They gave it their best shot and misfired.  They got solid rational arguments as to the goodness of traditional marriage.  Instead of rationally considering why, they prefer to irrationally avoid the issue.  After all evasion is the best way to protect bad ideas from the truth.
 
Regards,
Bill


Post 3

Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Greetings, Citizen Rat.

Thank you for offering your sincere feedback. Mostly, this essay has received a host of non-sanctions without explanation-- indeed the "X" button seems to have been used in this case as a talisman to ward off my heresy. I will indeed examine the treatise you recommend and see what arguments I can extract from it.

A general thought on why "traditional marriage" may be mistaken for an exclusively religious institution. Religion, as Mr. Garcia stated on another thread, is a form of systematic filosofy-- in order to adhere to it, an individual requires an intellectual consistency. Even if I disagree with the direction of this consistency, it is a quality to be admired. In the meantime, secular thought is dominated by the relativist left, whose only consistency is to shun consistency. As the various leftist plagues of socialism, pop-culturism, nihilism, and feminism spilled into society, their proliferation made rational secular thinkers seem like a minority. So there is indeed established a false dichotomy between religious traditional marriage and secular promiscuity, ignoring the fact that a growing minority of secularists can and does practice the same fidelity, consistency, and commitment in their relationships-- I wrote earlier that this even applies to the largely expatriate intelligentsia of the former Soviet Union, in which atmosfere I had grown up. Unfortunately, too many Objectivists have grown up during the "culture wars" between the religious right and the New Left, and have come to think, quite simplistically, that the religious views on social issues and the left's views on economics must be rejected in toto (I agree only with the latter part). As the only seemingly prevalent antidote to religious social views, they embrace the whole package of leftist social views, including the left's stances on abortion, euthanasia, marriage, and the general conduct of relationships. I, having had the exposure to a world in which the American package-deals do not exist, know rather to analyze each individual issue on its own merits. There are social issues on which I agree with Objectivists and some leftists, including the need to legalize drug use, pornografy, and prostitution. Nevertheless, I still consider all three of the above activities thoroughly and despicably repugnant. There is another trap that many Objectivists fall into: they reckon that simply because something ought to be legal, it is moral to engage in that activity as well. This fails to recognize that the moral is the chosen; that in order for true moral actions to take place, a person must be given the legal choice between doing good to his own self and harming his own self, and he must freely choose to do good. This is a point that Ayn Rand had focused on extensively, and which, unfortunately, slips the grasp of many Objectivists today.

I am
G. Stolyarov II
Atlas Count 126Atlas Count 126Atlas Count 126Atlas Count 126


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Greetings, Mr. Stolyarov.
 
>>In the meantime, secular thought is dominated by the relativist left, whose only consistency is to shun consistency. As the various leftist plagues of socialism, pop-culturism, nihilism, and feminism spilled into society, their proliferation made rational secular thinkers seem like a minority.<<
 
You and I recognize the same problem.  Because of these leftist plagues the secular is often reduced to an ideological domain in opposition to religion, as opposed to that greater part of society and culture that is common to us all beyond our sectarian differences.  Thus, the left has hijacked the public square that I as a believer and you as a non-believer would normally find as common ground in society.
 
I had always thought that Objectivism had the potential to give a secular voice to those universal principles of human nature, especially in the realms of public morality and politics (and perhaps aesthetics) -- a voice all but the anti-human left would recognize as true without regard to religious belief.  I doubt this now for various reasons.  I see that leftism has infected much of the Objectivist community, especially in terms of the libertine.  As you noted, it appears that many Objectivists have interpreted Rand's teaching on liberty (e.g., the law should not stop you from whatever degradation of the self you wish to indulge in) as license to do so.  Indeed, some for example take the liberty to sexually degrade themselves as a positive good.  (Although I think Regi aptly pointed out the foolishness of this by distinguishing pleasure from happiness.)
 
And the leftist infection isn't restricted to sexual nihilism.  It has plugged into the inchoate materialism that finds a home in Objectivist metaphysics.  Thus, the nihilism spreads to all manner of things, like support for abortion and euthanasia, a broad contempt for our fellow citizens, the inability to distinguish between anti-social criminals and genuinely principled rebels, and a generally snide and vulgar approach to life.  Fortunately, Objectivism endures because many do find an answer in its most stirring life-affirming credos.  Thus, it hasn't yet been pulled down the leftist drain.
 
Yours is mighty task, Mr. Stolyarov.  I wish you well in liberating Objectivism from left.
 
Regards,
Bill Tingley

(Edited by Citizen Rat on 6/17, 7:20am)


Post 5

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Greetings, Mr. Tingley.

I have found an analysis of Karol Wojtyla's, a.k.a. Pope John Paul II's treatise on the Theology of the Body here:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0058.html

From what I gather, the secularly applicable points of the treatise include that each individual was created for his/her own sake, and the practice of lust violates this individual sanctity by seeking from to take from an individual that which is not voluntarily given. I do not share John Paul's comparison of this to the Original Sin scenario, because I do not believe that man is guilty of Original Sin. However, I think that the very general message is true; man exists for his own sake, and in order to contribute the values that constitute a relationship, he must rely supremely and intricately on his consciousness, not on any primeval urge of lust. This statement holds whether or not God had created man.  

I also agree that lust involves a desire for that, which is not given freely. This is why so much of modern popular culture, instead of praising chivalric "higher love," as had been done in ages past, focuses on rape, devastation, the urge to dominate, subdue, or "to be one's slave," which I believe is in the contents of a not-too-recent Christina Aguilera song (or it could be from one of those other self-defacing young women of popular culture whose appearance and entire lives are a lustful fabrication-- I really see no difference among any of them).

If this argument can be applied to marriage in a secular sense, I think it is thus: marriage is a lasting, ongoing relationship between a male and female, in which they obtain such familiarity and fondness of one another that they become willing to reward each other with the gifts of romance and intercourse.

This bears many parallels to my arguments concerning permanence within the treatise.

Thank you for your recommendation, and your good wishes. I am confident that I will be able to win the battle against leftist infiltration of Objectivism someday. In a free market of ideas, the truth must inevitably triumf after fair competition of ideas. This is a principle that Objectivists have not yet renounced. At least I hope so...

I am
G. Stolyarov II
Atlas Count 137Atlas Count 137Atlas Count 137Atlas Count 137


Post 6

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Stolyarov: This is why so much of modern popular culture, instead of praising chivalric "higher love," as had been done in ages past, focuses on rape, devastation, the urge to dominate, subdue, or "to be one's slave," which I believe is in the contents of a not-too-recent Christina Aguilera song (or it could be from one of those other self-defacing young women of popular culture whose appearance and entire lives are a lustful fabrication-- I really see no difference among any of them).

Mr. Garcia: It is a Britney Spears song. If you are into sado-masochistic love, which I also do not approve of, I recommend reading how Howard Roark raped Dominique Francon in "The Fountainhead". Perhaps the problem is not a leftist infiltration of Objectivism. Perhaps the problem is Ayn Rand herself.


Sanction: 21, No Sanction: 4
Sanction: 21, No Sanction: 4
Sanction: 21, No Sanction: 4
Post 7

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr Stolyarov,
I'm replying to this thread very reluctantly.  The last thing I want is to encourage you and
Citizen Rat to continue posting this sort of irrational, fascist crap.  However, I'm going to
take the bait and respond, simply because I'm reluctant to let ideas like yours go unanswered.

What you are proposing is that the state determine what sort of private life individuals should
lead. 

You advocate the state banning private contracts between individuals for the purpose of
consensually ending one of those individual's lives.

You say that the state should prevent women from terminating their own pregnancies.

You say that two people can be forced to live together and share their property against their
will - slavery! 

You say that children resulting from unwanted pregnancies should be stigmatised by the label of
"illegitimate" through no fault of their own. 

And worst, you claim that government has the right to somehow authorise pregnancies.  As if
people need society's consent to make one of the most significant and personal choices they can
make!

How will you enforce all this?  You deny that you want to set up a "Big Brother" state but that
is the only way any of your bans and prohibitions could be enforced.  And maybe you could
explain how divorce is more of a denial of rights more than forcing someone to stay in an
unhappy marriage against their will.  In fact, you claim that the state owns your life and can
best determine how you can live it. 

You ignore the fact that children can grow up to be happy and normal in a sole-parent household,
or with same-sex parents.  It's true that the situation is not ideal but it is hardly so serious
a problem as to be a breach of rights.  Worse would be a situation where the parents wanted to
divorce but were forced by the government to stay together - for the sake of children.

You ignore the fact that men are individuals.  Everyone is different and should be judged as
such.  A parent's relationship with a child is a relationship between two individuals.  Just
because it is more common for males or females to act in a certain way doesn't mean that those
vague differences should be the standard for all such relationships.  In fact a more rational
response to your observations about mothers being more 'caring' and fathers being more
'disciplinarian' might well be that some fathers should try being less distant, and that some
mothers need to take more responsibility for discipline to avoid giving the child mixed
messages.

In fact you take this approach in virtually all issues which are surely a matter of individual
choice rather than blanket moral judgement.  For example, the issues of permanence, exclusivity
and sharing of property in relationships, and of sexual abstinence until marriage.
Your opinion is that one type of relationship only, following one pattern, is "objectively"
morally permissible.  This is not individualist.  It is treating all men as identical, leaving
no scope for individual preferences or differences in personality.  Your focus on permanence in
relationships leaves no allowance for the fact that people change over time.  The partner you
desire or love in high school is very rarely the partner you would want to spend your entire
life with.  It doesn't have any allowance for experimentation, for learning, for growth as an
individual.  A particular problem would be that if people aimed for a permanent relationship,
they would be more reluctant to enter into a relationship and more likely to set impossibly high
standards for a partner.  Exclusivity makes more sense but I am still reluctant to say that the
alternative is never acceptable.  And many relationships would suffer if property was shared, or
if the two partners moved in together.  It depends on the relationship, and it depends on the
character of the individuals - exactly what your moral code ignores.

Your approach to clothing and the body gives more insight into your position.  How could you
find the sight of bare legs offensive, unless you regard the body itself - regardless of the
beauty or otherwise of individual bodies - to be something ugly and shameful?  If that is not
your view, why require the body to be hidden under as many layers of clothing as possible?  Why
not celebrate beauty, and enjoy its display?

Mr Stolyarov, you advocate the initiation of force to enforce your views of private morality,
rather than to protect individual rights.  You believe all individuals should have one form of
romantic relationship, and that the human body is shameful and ugly.  How can you possibly call
yourself an Objectivist? 

I am,
Philip Howison (spelt PH - not with an F)


Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Philip, G.

I am so glad you posted this because it gives me an opportunity to agree with you.

I do not think I would have stated all your points in the same way, but the central point, that marriage, abortion, and how an individual uses or disposes of their own life is not the business of government, and any intrusion into any of those things by a government is a gross violation of individual liberty I completely agree with.

I also agree that the things you said people ought to be free to do without getting government permission or fear of government intrusion are all correct.

The difference, if there is any, would be emphasis (spelt, like your name, with "ph").  I was very disappointed with Mr. Stolyarov's article, because it had the opposite effect of the one I expected. I personally believe the vast majority of human beings would find their greatest happiness married to someone of the opposite sex, raising a family together. I think it is true, because it is essentially the nature of human beings to enjoy life in that way.

There are many for whom marriage would not be ideal, because of their personal nature--their goals in life just might not leave time or resources for marriage and a family because that kind of life does take time resources, they just may not be interested or may never find anyone interested in them, or may just decided, for any reason they choose, to live some other way. Each has to choose how they will live and enjoy the benefits or suffer the consequences of their own choices. In another place I have explained why I think many of those choices are wrong and lead to disastrous lives, but I would not think of preventing anyone from ruining their lives if that is their choice. That is the very nature of freedom.

I'm afraid if I were attempting to convince someone of the virtues and benefit of heterosexual marriage, Mr. Stolyarov's arguments would have the opposite affect. If I did not already have the views I have, Mr. Stoyarov's view would convince me marriage is some kind of state imposed social improvement program with all the good results of all such state social programs, individual human suffering and misery.

Regi


Post 9

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Howison,

I have un-sanctioned your post because of the deluded insults that you hurl at me, not the substance of your argument. The particular line responsible is "irrational fascist crap." I have been called a fascist before... by socialists and especially avowed communists. To hear that insult from one who styles himself an "Objectivist," as this indicates absolute evasion of the entirety of my ideology, and an extreme case of emotionalist, unwarranted, feel-good-because-you-blasted-the-other-guy smear-hurling. (Yes, I must bring out the E-Word, because no one can legitimately call any Objectivist, libertarian, or even "conservative" a fascist without evading enough information to be contained in 15+ volumes.)  Perhaps the infiltration by the left into Objectivism, or at least into the mind of Mr. Howison, is greater than I had imagined.

Nevertheless, I will not allow your accusations to win the day by default. I will examine them piece by piece and show them to be the formless, substance-less, vacuous absurdities that any rational thinker at this point would recognize them to be.

Mr. Howison: You advocate the state banning private contracts between individuals for the purpose of
consensually ending one of those individual's lives.

Mr. Stolyarov: Euthanasia is not and can never be consensual. It is by nature coercive. I explain this in "Daleford v. Stolyarov: A Euthanasia Debate": http://www.geocities.com/rationalargumentator/Euthanasia_Debate.html 

Not merely does the suicidist seek to eat his cake and have it too, but, by becoming a pursuer of euthanasia, he perverts the integrity of the free market by introducing a coercive element into it. What is the initiation of force, one may ask? It is an arbitrary, subjective, coercive imposition in defiance of reality, effectively barring rational pursuits by inflicting pain upon those who undertake them while leaving inherently destructive irrational pursuits as the only alternative for the victim. It is a double bind of death, and it is instituted via the defiance of objective reality, by temporarily rewarding the aggressor with some manner of service from the victim in return for the inexorable eventual demise of both for having deviated from rationality, which is the sole means of consistently maintaining life. The fysician who assists in suicide participates in such a coercive imposition, for the reason that he is rewarded with the suicidist's money for having performed an act contrary to all value and, hence, to the only pathway to reality having been available to the individual thus destroyed. This is identical to the plunderer who robs an industrialist and then briefly flourishes from the automobiles that he did not manufacture, effectively defying reality by an arbitrary and subjective confiscation. Neither of the two trade value for value. Instead, they receive value for non-value, a supplement to their lives in exchange for another's death, and could thus rightly be dubbed parasites.
 
The parasite does not survive for a significantly protracted period of time beyond the life of his prey. As soon as he finishes pillaging his victim, he possesses no other means of sustenance and must search for fresh deaths to cause and fresh non-values to foster. Thus, a euthanasia doctor (a Death Doctor), instead of earning money by ameliorating or curing his clients, will earn it by killing them, and the amount he earns will be in proportion to the clients he robs of their lives. In a coercion-free, laissez-faire capitalist system, the blending of force with economics is barred, and money is therefore earned by fysicians through the rendering of services beneficial to doctors and patients alike. Doctors tend to maximize the swiftness of their cures, the civility of their relationships, and the technological finesse of their facilities in order to maximize profit in a scheme purely compatible with reality. In a laissez-faire system, the sole purpose of government is to prevent or punish the imposition of force, i.e. to counter parasitism and thereby foster a purely rational economic system. However, should reality be defied through the legalization of euthanasia, of money-making murder, then certain doctors will employ it to, in their irrationality, earn something for nothing, to earn life for death (as the sole purpose of such legalization will be to permit them to do so). In order to maximize profit, those depraved creatures will seek to kill their patients in the most efficient way possible, and because they earn money for the killing, they will frequently persuade their patients to commit suicide even absent the case of a terminal illness or irreversible disability. Death rates will soar, as will the inpouring of cash for Death Doctors, which will result in ever more dramatic escalations of hospitalized killing for ever more trivial purposes. Only when the amount of patients available for killing, i.e. all of humanity, will expire, will the parasites perish themselves.
 
Have soaring rates of "involuntary euthanasia" in states such as Oregon and the Netherlands, where "voluntary euthanasia" has been legalized, not amply proved my point?

Mr. Howison: You say that the state should prevent women from terminating their own pregnancies.

Mr. Stolyarov: I say that the state should prevent women from terminating the human beings that inexorably result from their pregnancies. My objection is not to a choice the women make with their own lives (I clearly specify that adopting out an unwanted child is a preferable option to keeping it), but to a choice that violates the right to life of another. My difference with some other Objectivists (though not all, I have met many independent Objectivists who share my perspective) is in considering the fetus a human being, for which I present arguments far more funamental than the political level. Thus, if my premises for those arguments are accepted, I have stated nothing contrary to individual liberty. If they are mistaken, then my error is not in politics nor does it concern state intervention; it would be a metafysical misconception. I am not a statist but especially not a fascist in either case, and, absent evading the world, your attack holds no water.

Mr. Howison: You say that two people can be forced to live together and share their property against their
will - slavery! 

Mr. Stolyarov: I have never stated that it was a legal obligation for a couple to get married! I merely stated that marriage is desirable from an ethical perspective as the culmination of a relationship, and that the contract that brings it about should include joint property ownership in order to best serve the participant individuals. All this essentially states is that marriage should exist and should be protected from law, something that you and your anti-marriage associates would not like to continue. You would deny individual rights by abolishing the ability of individuals to voluntarily form marriage contracts that entail joint property ownership; you would withdraw from the state any obligation to protect the terms under which such contracts were established.

People have the right to marry and share property, I say, and for that, am called an "irrational fascist." Fancy that!

Mr. Howison: You say that children resulting from unwanted pregnancies should be stigmatised by the label of
"illegitimate" through no fault of their own. 

Mr. Stolyarov: Would you rather have a child "stigmatized" temporarily or lacking throughout its childhood in real, material values? The latter is that case if it is brought up out of wedlock in an infirm setting. The illegitimacy is not intended to be permanent. As I stated in my treatise, it ought to be used as a stimulus to enourage couples with children to marry and establish a footing on which parental obligation is best fulfilled.

This is about the child's rights to be raised to autonomy without abuse, trauma, or neglect. In all of your one-liners, you, Mr. Howison, accuse me of being an opponent of individual rights, but are children not individuals, too, and metafysically distinct due to their yet incomplete autonomy? Do they not deserve protection of their liberties as well?

Mr. Howison: And worst, you claim that government has the right to somehow authorise pregnancies.  As if
people need society's consent to make one of the most significant and personal choices they can
make!

Mr. Stolyarov: The government has the duty (not a right; governments have no rights) to protect the liberties of all of its citizens, including children, which means it can enforce parental obligation. Recall what I actually wrote: "Recognizing that Big Brother methods such as spy cameras, public education behemoths, and weekly visits by state counselors are subversive of individual liberty, the most effective and moral way to ascertain that parental obligation is met is to require marriage as a precondition for having children legitimately! " The authorization of married couples to have children by means of the legitimacy designation is the only antidote to statist intervention into individual families and individual lives. Rather than being Big Brother, the government can state generically: "If you are married, you may procreate. If you have procreated and are not married, go get married!" Note that I never stated that the parents of the illegitimate child should be forced to get married. The word I used was "encouraged." For example, if the parents do not get married, the government can simply withdraw its court services from the parents-- they will not be able to sue anyone until they assert the legitimacy of the child. No fines, imprisonment, or forced separation need be necessary. But if we recognize the government's duty to enforce parental obligation, the situation is either-or: either a generic approach to procreation linked with marriage or a case-by-case approach of intrustion, surveillance, counselling, restraining orders, and miscellaneous loathsome abuses of state power.

Mr. Howison: maybe you could explain how divorce is more of a denial of rights more than forcing someone to stay in an unhappy marriage against their will.

Mr. Stolyarov: Read what I actually wrote: " However, the criteria for granting such a divorce should be far more stringent than those for a divorce where only the lives of the two individuals separating would be affected. In the latter case, a mere discovery of the unlikelihood of optimal compatibility should suffice as evidence in a court of law that the relationship should be discontinued at the consent of both parties. However, when a child’s right to a materially and intellectually sound upbringing enters the picture, it must trump all other considerations except those of the fysical safety of the parents. I would propose that, outside of cases of clear abuse and harm to the child or one of the parents in the relationship, divorces should not be granted to couples with children until the children reach functional maturity. The child has done nothing to deserve the penalty of insufficient parental care, and thus should not be permitted in a court of law to incur such a punishment. "

I do not object to separating unhappy marriages, when only that much is at stake. But when the rights of another innocent being are to be violated by this decision, the parents, who conceived the child, cannot legitimately walk away from the responsibility of raising it to autonomy. The lack of divorce authorization is temporary; until the child attains independence; then, the parents are free to do whatever they wish-- they are free with regard to any choices they make concerning their own lives; they are not free to act to the detriment of others against those others' will (and, even in his limited capacity to make judgments, no child would want to see his parents divorce and himself be deprived of half the former financial means used to sustain him, thus of half his quality of life).

So, how is it again, that I propose that the state should "own individual lives"? Again, a ridiculous accusation that evades in entirety what I have written and what I stand for.

Also, recall that I have already refuted this argument. Read:

Objectivists cannot legitimately argue against this ideal by calling the requirements of parents in certain situations to be a “sacrifice” of their individual prerogatives. Branden states:

 

“One of the cruelest injustices that parents can perpetrate is to reproach a child for being a financial burden or for requiring time and attention, as if the child's legitimate needs were an imposition on them-to complain to the child of the ‘sacrifices’ made for his or her sake, as if the child were to feel apologetic or guilty-to state or imply that the child's mere existence is an unfair strain, as if the child had any choice in the matter.” (Nathaniel Branden, Interview with Karen Reedstrom, April 5, 1998)

 
Mr. Howison: You ignore the fact that children can grow up to be happy and normal in a sole-parent household,
or with same-sex parents.  It's true that the situation is not ideal but it is hardly so serious
a problem as to be a breach of rights.

Mr. Stolyarov: Some children may have the willpower to overcome these deficiencies, and this is certainly possible for any individual who exercises his volitional capacity with sufficient determination. But this is just like saying, "If you DELIBERATELY paralyze a man moderately, he may after protracted exercise and self-control regain mastery of his limbs, as FDR did." It is better not to allow the child to be thus paralyzed in the first place.

More important is the fact that no one, neither the state nor private individuals, have the right to thus paralyze the child against its informed consent, which it is not yet fully equipped to give.

Mr. Howison: You ignore the fact that men are individuals.  Everyone is different and should be judged as
such.  A parent's relationship with a child is a relationship between two individuals.  Just
because it is more common for males or females to act in a certain way doesn't mean that those
vague differences should be the standard for all such relationships.  In fact a more rational
response to your observations about mothers being more 'caring' and fathers being more
'disciplinarian' might well be that some fathers should try being less distant, and that some
mothers need to take more responsibility for discipline to avoid giving the child mixed
messages.

Mr. Stolyarov: My observations (as I must state again and again, as if the first time were not sufficient!) were that these distinctions are general trends that are validated by empirical evidence; they are not categorical prohibitions against any behaviors by either gender. Recall what I wrote: "The mother, for example, is the only individual that can bear the child in the first place. The mother is the child’s closest companion during the first year of its life, and no infant, in my experience, could ever stand to be separated from its mother for any lengthy period of time. " The mother's proximity attained in bearing the child is not something the father can ever equal, even if her tried his best. This does not mean he should not try, but that his relationship with the child, even if he attempts his best to be caring and gentle, will still be different than the mother's relationship with that child. This is simply due to the fact that the mother's role in creating the child was different from that of the father. It does not imply that either gender plays a more important role. Both roles are important, and have billions of individual variations upon them, some of them better than others. But, simply because I have observed that the natures of the two genders are different, I am said to ignore individuality! If I claimed that all persons of the same gender did (or should) behave in the same manner, there would be no need to write this treatise in the first place! If their behavior were universally good, why should I bother to defend the then invulnerable family? If their behavior were universally inadequate, why would I praise it? Only the individuality of relationships permitted me to discuss the matter as I had in the first place!

Mr. Howison:  Your focus on permanence in
relationships leaves no allowance for the fact that people change over time.  The partner you
desire or love in high school is very rarely the partner you would want to spend your entire
life with.  It doesn't have any allowance for experimentation, for learning, for growth as an
individual. 

Mr. Stolyarov: You are revering degradation cloaked in sweet-sounding terms. I have already refuted your claim and need not do so again:

Certain opponents of permanence in marriage will claim that “individuals grow and change over time” and what may once have been a compatible relationship is no longer such because of this “growth” in one of the parties involved. First, I ask, what “growth” is this that acts to the detriment of one’s ability to attain values from a previously productive relationship? If anything, it is not growth, but rather a decline in one’s abilities to benefit one’s very self! Moreover, marriage as a relationship, under the “historical” definition, is available only to adult individuals for a reason. Adults are assumed to have matured to the point of developing entirely their own hierarchy of value-premises. The remainder of their lives is to be devoted to actualizing these premises in practice, through work, relationships, and all other interests. Those who do not yet have a soundly defined hierarchy of values, but are still in the process of forming it, are not yet prepared to undertake a romantic commitment; they cannot judge another individual to be optimally compatible with them because they are not fully aware of what this optimal compatibility will constitute!
 
Mr. Howison: A particular problem would be that if people aimed for a permanent relationship,
they would be more reluctant to enter into a relationship and more likely to set impossibly high
standards for a partner. 

Mr. Stolyarov: Who says the standards have to be "impossibly high?" They need only be enough to ascertain the possibility of optimal compatibility developing via familiarity over time. Yes, this excludes a great many mismatched relationships right off the bat. But I did write that, if bad marriages are the cause of bad divorces, then people should indeed be more discerning, deliberate, and perhaps reluctant to enter relationships until they are ready.

How is that bit of personal advice totalitarian, again?

Mr. Howison: How could you
find the sight of bare legs offensive, unless you regard the body itself - regardless of the
beauty or otherwise of individual bodies - to be something ugly and shameful?

Mr. Stolyarov: Have you even read the essay where I make the argument for clothing?

http://www.geocities.com/rationalargumentator/publicprivate.html

"The objective need to keep bodily properties private leads to another behavioral/stylistic necessity, to which all rational individuals will adhere, clothing. Aside from those parts of the body which are indispensable to perception of and interaction with the outside world, such as the mouth, nose, ears, and eyes (and, in some cases, the hands), all others, which hint at the physical state of the proprietor individual, should be kept concealed from the view of any random passer-by. Of course, the degree to which such coverture is required is contextual; on a hot day one can wear short sleeves to prevent discomfort and nevertheless not reveal volumes about his bodily state. So can one, in a swimming pool, wear a bathing suit that is most conductive to unobstructed aquatic movement. However, one should always seek maximum privacy in the coverage that his clothing can afford under the circumstances. While it is entirely within proper manners to wear a short-sleeved shirt or dress in public, to don a miniskirt or flimsy see-through quasi-garment is irrelevant both to comfort and coverture (so is, by the way, a large portion of the swimsuits, especially of the female variety, encountered during the present day; the Victorian era should have served as sufficient proof that unimpeded swimming can be accomplished in far ampler attire). It is intended to reveal unwanted information about the possessor's bodily state and is thus a breach of etiquette, to be called by an adjective that reveals precisely the wearer's motive and the perceivers' reactions, scandalous."

I never once mention the body's ugliness. My statement of the need for clothing is based on the public-private ethical distincion. The human body is not something to be freely given to the sight of any stranger. And how does this link to your thesis about my statism? Unless, that is, you consider anyone who does not marvel at bare legs and does not encourage others to bare their legs to be a statist...

Mr. Howison: Mr Stolyarov, you advocate the initiation of force to enforce your views of private morality,
rather than to protect individual rights.  You believe all individuals should have one form of
romantic relationship, and that the human body is shameful and ugly.  How can you possibly call
yourself an Objectivist? 

Mr. Stolyarov: I believe none of those things. You have set up the crudest and most disgusting straw man I had ever seen, and have used it to foster intolerance, rabid emotionalism, and absolute perversion of the facts. I do not expect you to respond to this, but if you happen to do so, please do not use any more one-liners; they are a flimsy substitute for real arguments, and I will not waste any more time on them. If you have sense to offer an apology for this disgraceful display, I will have the courtesy to accept it and to forget that this ever happened. If not, prepare for this statement to be exposed to the world...

I am
G. Stolyarov II  

Atlas Count 137Atlas Count 137Atlas Count 137Atlas Count 137


 


 

 


Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 10

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Government involment: Nope. Only in resolving conflict in the marriage contract. Thank you very much.

Why do you care what people do with their lives? Let people be free to live their lives and succeed or fail to acheive hapiness and success as they see fit. Any code of rules designed to control/reward/punish peoples bahavior (beyond its effects on other free individuals) is nice and anti-freedom, And no, you don't need a license to have children. Your on the path to rationalizing all sorts of ridiculous government controls on our lives.


Post 11

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Greetings.
 
Mr. Firehammer: There are many for whom marriage would not be ideal, because of their personal nature--their goals in life just might not leave time or resources for marriage and a family because that kind of life does take time resources, they just may not be interested or may never find anyone interested in them, or may just decided, for any reason they choose, to live some other way. Each has to choose how they will live and enjoy the benefits or suffer the consequences of their own choices.

Mr. Stolyarov: I never said I disagreed; I just did not think that I needed to dwell on this point ten times in order for it to be grasped that, of course, I hold it. After all, I am not married, and do not plan to until I become a little older, a lot wealthier, and find a person who would fulfill my highest expectations. How, then, can I not hold to what you wrote above and remain intellectually consistent?

I only stated that if one chooses to enter a romantic relationship, one of the highest possible proximity, one should also not hesitate to offer it the highest possible commitment. My advice (not a matter of government compulsion) to all individuals is to think and think carefully before entering relationships that may have the possibility of failure or incompatibility.

Mr. Firehammer: In another place I have explained why I think many of those choices are wrong and lead to disastrous lives, but I would not think of preventing anyone from ruining their lives if that is their choice. That is the very nature of freedom.

Mr. Stolyarov: Anyone is free to ruin his own life, but not the life of an innocent child. This is where the government has the right to step in and protect the child when the child's parents fail to protect it. The existence of parental obligation is actually the surest check against government intrusion; if parents fulfill what is owed by them, their side of the implicit contract they assented to when conceiving the child, the government needs do nothing. But when the parents default on that responsibility and attempt to undermine the foundations of a child's upbringing via a divorce, neglect, abuse, or abandonment, the government must remedy the wrongs as part of its mandate to protect individual rights. This is all I have said. How this prevents people from personally failing miserably if they choose to, I know not.

Mr. Firehammer: Mr. Stoyarov's view would convince me marriage is some kind of state imposed social improvement program with all the good results of all such state social programs, individual human suffering and misery.

Mr. Stolyarov: I have looked over my principal arguments, and am quite perplexed as to what part of those arguments would convince you of the above. Re-read, especially one of the latter passages:

There are also the well-intentioned advocates of “broadening” the definition, into which category most Objectivists would likely fall. They would claim that the legalization of “homosexual marriage” would merely assure someone else’s liberties while not intervening with their own. But, as already demonstrated, no one’s liberties are being extended by this reform. Rather, in the time of a generation if not less, marriage will cease to be seen as the most fitting environment in which to raise a child, the expectation of two-parent homes with a mother and father for children will be eroded, and parental obligations will not be met by cultural default. After all, if some marriages have the potential to create children, while other marriages do not, and all marriages are treated in precisely the same manner, who is to say what marriage has to do with raising children in the first place?! If parental obligations are not met, as met they must be, the State can assume a quasi-legitimate stance for intervening into the domestic sfere to an unprecedented extent. The State can claim moral guardianship of the child where the parents (or absence thereof) had failed to provide it. The State can establish comprehensive indoctrination facilities beginning with the cradle, not the first grade, which, due to the increasing cultural perception of their necessity after the vacuum left by the destruction of the family, will eventually become mandatory. Sound familiar? The leftists have already done this with education. They will not hesitate to do this again with nursery care and the off-school hours; they only require a proper excuse.

According to my argument, the institution of marriage is an antidote to big government, not its incarnation!

 

Mr. Dawe: Government involment: Nope. Only in resolving conflict in the marriage contract.

 

Mr. Stolyarov: And did I say anything different? Here is what I wrote: "So, what precisely is a legitimate means of government enforcement of the marriage contract? If a marriage proceeds according to expectations, and there are scant, if any, conflicts, the government’s immediate services are not necessary. Both parties are playing the game by the rules, and the referee needs to but stand by and do nothing."

 

Mr. Dawe: Any code of rules designed to control/reward/punish peoples behavior (beyond its effects on other free individuals) is nice and anti-freedom.

 

Mr. Stolyarov: Did I ever state that the behavior of free individuals should be controlled/punished/rewarded so long as they legitimately exercise their freedom? No! Did I not state that a divorce could be granted to a childless couple under just about any grounds? But, for some reason, many of my opponents in this debate do not seem to conceive of children as "people." To them, children seem to be just objects of temporary pleasure, to be brushed aside when the going gets tough-- I offer, in contrast, a radical message that children, too, have inviolable liberties. I stand adamantly as an advocate of the Universal Rights of Child, and, in the words of the great William Lloyd Garrison (who stood for recognizing the humanity of another oppressed group of individuals), I WILL BE HEARD.

 

By the way, marriage has acted an an explicit sanction for child-bearing in just about every society up to our time-- I am not offering some new totalitarian scheme of creeping statism. In fact, the statists a la Dewey had always had their eyes on undermining the institution of the family through state spy networks and the homogenization of individuals in the public schools; they recognized the role strong families play as bastions of individual rights. It is a pity that many defenders of individual rights today seldom do.

 

By the way, one of the most notorious child abandoners in history was the arch-collectivist Rousseau, who traveled like a vagabond from place to place, entangling himself in various amours and then leaving the resulting children behind in orfanages or to fend for themselves. He was also an advocate of abolishing marriage and having the entire world engage in one collective orgy of self-abasement.


I am

G. Stolyarov II
Atlas Count 137Atlas Count 137Atlas Count 137Atlas Count 137

 


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 2
Post 12

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 9:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi, Regi.
 
>>I'm afraid if I were attempting to convince someone of the virtues and benefit of heterosexual marriage, Mr. Stolyarov's arguments would have the opposite affect. If I did not already have the views I have, Mr. Stoyarov's view would convince me marriage is some kind of state imposed social improvement program with all the good results of all such state social programs, individual human suffering and misery.<<
 
Well, yes, Regi, when you want to convince someone of something, you are gifted with a rollicking style of argument that grabs one's attention then directs him to essence of the issue.  So I don't expect you'd use Mr. Stolyarov's rather dry approach.  But his dryness is in the service of precision in the expression of his ideas.  His call for the involvement of the government is minimal -- the recognition a particular form of private contract called marriage that is legally enforceable.  It is hardly a Bushlike call for "conservative" social improvement funded by my tax dollars, let alone Philip's assinine label of it as fascist.
 
Considering that Mr. Stolyarov is not calling for anything that would prevent any other group of individuals contracting to form a household of whatever sort, and so it would appear the he and Philip are not far apart as to what the government should be doing in regards to marriage, I can only understand Philip's somewhat unhinged rebuke as a rejection of the wholesomeness of traditional marriage.  It was in defense of the desirability of marriage that Mr. Stolyarov first raised his standard in hostile territory and we came to his defense.  It appears to me little has changed along the battle lines that were established, except perhaps some quibbling over whether anything useful is accomplished by having the government license traditional marriages:  You, me, and Mr. Stolyarov still think marriage is a swell thing, and it looks like Philip is among those who are dubious about that.
 
I understand that you are trying to get Philip to look past Mr. Stolyarov's style of argument, hence your post voicing agreement with him.  I just hope you aren't trying distance yourself from us "fascists". ;)
 
Regards,
Bill

(Edited by Citizen Rat on 6/17, 10:07pm)


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 2
Post 13

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:00pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi, Filip.
 
>>The last thing I want is to encourage you and Citizen Rat to continue posting this sort of irrational, fascist crap.<<
 
Ah, it's been awhile since I've been called a phascist.  The last time was right about twenty years ago when we were installing the Pershing missiles in the U.K.  In a pub some skanky English hippie chick took note of my regulation Air Phorce haircut and remarked that I made a phine-looking phascist.  She later informed me that property was theft, so I suspect her assessment of me wasn't from an Objectivist perspective.  So thanks for sparking a warm memory of the halcyon days of my youth.
 
Regards,
Bill


Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 14

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 11:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'll keep it short and sweet, just to change the flow a bit.

G., you write:
The government has the duty (not a right; governments have no rights) to protect the liberties of all of its citizens, including children, which means it can enforce parental obligation.
 
Does this obligation include nutritionally-correct meals that the government has the duty to ensure the child receives?  No more trips to McDonald's?  What are the penalties for giving your child potentially teeth-rotting candy?  Or for buying them a pair of orthopedically harmful running shoes?  Should the government ensure parents don't allow their children to watch psychologically damaging television shows, to prevent the same kind of mental "defects" that may occur when a child is--shudder!--raised by one parent alone?  Will I be allowed to drink alcohol if I have children, ever?  If I can't afford a safer replacement for my run-down station-wagon, will the government buy me a new car, or penalize me for endangering my child?  The child can't make an informed decision in any of these matters--so isn't it the role of government to penalize me for leading them astray?

How far does this enforceable "parental obligation" statute extend into my life?  Will there be any benefits to having children, beyond what happiness and freedom the State hasn't yet managed to destroy?  It sounds like the best plan is to not have kids at all, seeing as how my entire life would essentially be run by my child's existence, checking him or her in with the State every few weeks to make sure I haven't turned into a drunk, or a screamer, or a fast-food frequenter, or a homo. 

Doesn't this State intrusion into private lives bring us quite a bit closer to the "society run by seven-year olds"?  Isn't the penalization of "shock-jock" carriers in the radio business an example of the government "thinking about the children" while it rends the First Amendment apart, word-by-word?  Where does one stop "thinking about the children"?  Just shy of the tyke holding a gun to your head and shrieking "I'm more important, old fogey!" before he blows your brains across the room?  (this is the simplest and most effective way to destroy liberties--invoke The Immortal, Porcelain Child

And also:
 
If you are married, you may procreate.
 
May?  I have to ask permission to have kids "legitimately"?  Do I have to ask permission for them to play sports legitimately, as well?  Ride a bike?  Swim?  Are there forms that I would fill out that somehow legitimize the existence--or the activities--of my child?
 
If you have procreated and are not married, go get married!
 
Or what?  Jail-time for the folks?  Foster care for the little ones?  Sounds extreme, but we are talking about the safety of children, aren't we?

And another thing:  How is getting government involved in the upbringing of children the purest and best method for keeping government out of the upbringing of children? 

These must be blanket moral suggestions, or I'm afraid Ethan Dawe is correct:  once the Immortal, Porcelain Child is invoked, the State does in fact gain Rights, and these sorts of rationalizations for State-involvement in private matters can and probably will lead to greater intrusion and exclusion where the Bill of Rights is--or should be--concerned.
-----

Looking for context, hoping this stuff isn't the nanny-state propaganda it seems to be at first, and second glance.
Thanks.



Post 15

Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil Howison - that was a splendid post, & right on the money. Do not be intimidated by Mr Stolyarov's threat to "expose you to the world." I would be proud to be "exposed to the world" for saying what you've said here. "Fascist crap" is *exactly* what these frigidly formalistic strictures are, bringing child-rearing under state control to the extent that they would, & it's entirely appropriate that they should find support from a Roman Catholic, & vicarious support from Rationalist Regi. Plato would be pleased with both the frigid formalist & the Catholic. I'm pleased that the frigid formalist chose to re-post his dicta about keeping all flesh apart from ears, nose, mouth & eyes (& maybe forearms on a hot day), hidden from the view of "random strangers." Here is the naked (oops!) essence of his frigid formalism revealed - something until recently practised in Afghanistan by the Taleban. Nothing could be further removed from Objectivism, & I can't begin to imagine why Stolyarov is attracted to Ayn Rand's philosophy. He must know Objectivism *only* through the ARI - & even they are not *that* bad.

Linz
(Edited by Lindsay Perigo on 6/18, 1:17am)


Post 16

Friday, June 18, 2004 - 3:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Linz,

Odd, isn't it, how people assume they know what you think, what you feel, even what you say, without even bothering to read what you actually say? It is one of the most peculiar, common, and entertaining of human traits. It seldom surprises me, but in your case it did, a little.

Since you think I have provided, "vicarious support," to Mr. Stolyarov's views on marriage and family, and I am sure you would not comment about someone's supposed "support" without reading it, I am going to do what you have taught me, I am going assume I know what you mean.

Since I responded favorably, before you did,  to Mr. Howison's critique in my Post #8 , I'm sure you read it. I assume you disagree with it or would not characterize it as support for Mr. Stolyrov.

I assume therefore--

Since I said, I am so glad you posted this, you must be unhappy about Mr. Howison's post.
 
Since I said to him that I agree with you, you must disagree with him.

Since I said, marriage, abortion, and how an individual uses or disposes of their own life is not the business of government, and any intrusion into any of those things by a government is a gross violation of individual liberty, you must think government intrusion in those things is just lovely.
 
Since I said, If I did not already have the views I have, Mr. Stoyarov's view would convince me marriage is some kind of state imposed social improvement program with all the good results of all such state social programs, individual human suffering and misery, you must think state involvement in these things promotes human happiness.

Of course I do not really assume these things about you, because I bothered read to what you wrote. I am not stuck in any kind of  "frigid formalism," "empty ritual," or "habits of mind," that speak and act spontaneously, with no more forethought than a fart or burp.

NOT that I would ever accuse you of that kind of mindless reaction, Mr. Danger.

Regi



Post 17

Friday, June 18, 2004 - 7:29amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hello, Mr. Stolyarov.
 
>>This bears many parallels to my arguments concerning permanence within the treatise.<<
 
I thought you might find the "Theology of the Body" interesting in that way.  I would not expect an Objectivist to agree with Catholics as to WHY many of the points made in that treatise are true, but he should not have any hesitation in acknowledging WHAT points are objectively true.  In the real world, I think we should all be glad when we can get an agreement on the WHAT, and not make such a fetish out of disagreement as to the WHY.
 
Regards,
Bill Tingley


Post 18

Friday, June 18, 2004 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Greetings.

 

I will first respond to Mr. Johnson.

 

Mr. Johnson: Does this obligation include nutritionally-correct meals that the government has the duty to ensure the child receives?  No more trips to McDonald's?  What are the penalties for giving your child potentially teeth-rotting candy?  Or for buying them a pair of orthopedically harmful running shoes?  Should the government ensure parents don't allow their children to watch psychologically damaging television shows, to prevent the same kind of mental "defects" that may occur when a child is--shudder!--raised by one parent alone?  Will I be allowed to drink alcohol if I have children, ever?  If I can't afford a safer replacement for my run-down station-wagon, will the government buy me a new car, or penalize me for endangering my child?  The child can't make an informed decision in any of these matters--so isn't it the role of government to penalize me for leading them astray?

 

Mr. Stolyarov: How in the world do the writings of Nathaniel Branden suggest a Nanny State? Remember that I had based my case for parental obligation on Branden’s interview? Branden implies none of the above horror scenarios that you mention. Here is more of what he said:

 

The essence of parental responsibility is: to equip the child for independent survival as an adult. This means, to provide for the child's physical and mental development and wellbeing: to feed, clothe and protect her; to raise her in a stable, intelligible, rational home environment, to equip him intellectually, training him to live as a rational being; to educate him to earn his livelihood (teaching him to hunt for instance, in a primitive society; sending him to college, perhaps, in an advanced civilization). When the child reaches the age of legal maturity and/or when she has been educated for a career, parental obligation ends. Thereafter, parents may still want to help their child, but he or she is no longer their responsibility.

 

…Above the level of necessities, it is the standard of living of the parents that properly determines the standard of living of the child, appropriately scaled to his age and level of development. It is the responsibility of the child, as she grows older, to understand (if and when it is the case) that much of what she receives, above the ordinary, is an expression of her parents' benevolence and affection-and should be acknowledged as such in the form of reciprocated consideration and good will. If his parents are genuinely devoted to the child, if they treat the child justly and do their conscientious best to guide him or her, the appropriate response on the child's part is appreciation, affection, and respect.

 

When a couple is married, it is assumed to be able to provide these necessities, since most married parents, from empirical observation and the logical arguments presented in this treatise, do. I am not the first to recognize this! The father of parental obligation was the honorable John Locke himself!

(From “Two Treatises on Government: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~kimball/locke.2.treatises.htm)

 

For the end of conjunction, between male and female, being not barely procreation, but the continuation of the species; this conjunction betwixt male and female ought to last, even after procreation, so long as is necessary to the nourishment and support of the young ones, who are to be sustained even after procreation, so long as is necessary to the nourishment and support of the young ones, who are to be sustained by those that got them, till they are able to shift and provide for themselves.

 

Locke conceived of parental obligation as a defense against Hobbes, etc., who claimed that the parents have absolute authority over the lives and conduct of their offspring and compared the situation to the absolute, monarchical state. Locke countered with the recognition that children, too, have rights, that parents’ care of them is conditional and based on their fulfillment of these rights, and that the family was the best possible establishment under which parents could comfortably fulfill their obligations while serving as mentors and guides for their children. It was Locke, not I, who first conceived of the inherent difference in how parents of different genders raise children, and who recognized the importance of both genders’ participation in upbringing. I am, in fact, the culmination of a long-standing libertarian legacy of advocacy for the family—something that was assumed a given until very recently, when a perverse fashion emerged from the socialist/hippie left to question and challenge the family. And alleged defenders of liberty have fallen for Hobbesian statism, hook, line, and sinker, by granting that parents do have absolute authority over their children, since no legitimate enforcement of parental obligation cannot (according to them) exist! Hobbes, Rousseau, and John Dewey would be proud!

 

Mr. Johnson: How far does this enforceable "parental obligation" statute extend into my life?  Will there be any benefits to having children, beyond what happiness and freedom the State hasn't yet managed to destroy?  It sounds like the best plan is to not have kids at all, seeing as how my entire life would essentially be run by my child's existence, checking him or her in with the State every few weeks to make sure I haven't turned into a drunk, or a screamer, or a fast-food frequenter, or a homo. 

 

Mr. Stolyarov: Will there be benefits? Yes!

 

(From http://solohq.com/Articles/Stolyarov/An_Objectivist_Condemnation_of_Abortion.shtml)

 

I like to think of all proper actions in terms of trade, or the consensual exchange of value for value. What is parenthood, you ask? Is it a selfless sacrifice of time, money, and psychological calm to an "unintelligent growth" or an "ungrateful little ruffian"? No. It is an investment like all others. A child can be a pillar of support during one's retirement years and can be morally conditioned to offer aid to his elderly ancestors not as a duty but simply as back payment for the sustenance provided to him during his youth. But more significant is the direct spiritual value that a child brings to a sound home as a complex, inquisitive entity on its path to full mental competence. The relationship between parent and child is undertaken for the same reason and with the same value-value symbiosis as a business contract between a producer and a consumer. The violation of a contract after a single party has paid its dues is called fraud and is a variety of the initiation of force, rightly prohibited by law.

 

In order to benefit from the terms of a contract, you must follow its terms honestly and deliberately. The government intervenes in no manner if you do so.

 

You forget that my scheme is in fact one of immense liberalization. In the status quo, the government already has the safeguards I mention and many, many more unwarranted intrusions into private lives (i.e. the public school system, child monitoring, counseling, safety seat laws) that my plan would simply toss aside. You will need to turn in nothing but your marriage license, once! (Or however many times you marry.)

 

Mr. Johnson: Or what?  Jail-time for the folks?  Foster care for the little ones?  Sounds extreme, but we are talking about the safety of children, aren't we?

 

Mr. Stolyarov: I am wondering how many times people here actually read what they are about to refute. I wrote the consequences explicitly:

 

The word I used was "encouraged." For example, if the parents do not get married, the government can simply withdraw its court services from the parents-- they will not be able to sue anyone until they assert the legitimacy of the child. No fines, imprisonment, or forced separation need be necessary. But if we recognize the government's duty to enforce parental obligation, the situation is either-or: either a generic approach to procreation linked with marriage or a case-by-case approach of intrustion, surveillance, counselling, restraining orders, and miscellaneous loathsome abuses of state power.

 

If parents violate the rights of another and continue to do so despite warnings to the contrary, who are they to demand protection of their rights from the government?

 

Mr. Johnson: And another thing:  How is getting government involved in the upbringing of children the purest and best method for keeping government out of the upbringing of children? 

 

Mr. Stolyarov: How many times do I have to say: THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT INVOLVED IN THE UPBRINGING OF CHILDREN UNDER MY SUGGESTION! before I can get the point across?

 

I am afraid you have fallen prey to Mr. Howison’s intentionally distorted interpretation of my views, Mr. Johnson, rather than analyze my views based on what I actually wrote. You are not a sloppy thinker, generally, but I imagine Mr. Howison’s crudely simplistic straw man seems all too appealing. My actual stances are far more complex than what he portrays them to be, and so are my reasons for them far different from what he believes them to be. 

 

Mr. Johnson: Where does one stop "thinking about the children"?  Just shy of the tyke holding a gun to your head and shrieking "I'm more important, old fogey!" before he blows your brains across the room? 

 

Mr. Stolyarov: How does a child’s claim to sustenance, shelter, and parental care until it reaches autonomy at all comparable to holding a gun to somebody’s head? Does an infant who cries to be spoon-fed threaten to kill someone? Does a little kid who cuddles up to his mother at times to get a hug or a kiss threaten anybody’s life or happiness? Does an older child who wishes to study and learn in a comfortable, encouraging environment endanger anybody’s welfare?

 

You are referring to some of the purest, most innocent, and virtuous beings in existence—and you compare them to disgraceful murderers! And, amidst all this, I am accused of rationalism by others, simply for the fact that I do not wish to rationalize the oppression of those creatures under a whole chain of evasions and context-dropping that would require one to abandon the very notion of a child’s humanity and view it as a mere object of parental pleasure! Who here is talking about real people, and who about oppression, deprivation, abuse, and neglect cloaked under the absolutely inapplicable “pursuit of happiness?”

 

Mr. Johnson: May?  I have to ask permission to have kids "legitimately"?  Do I have to ask permission for them to play sports legitimately, as well?  Ride a bike?  Swim?  Are there forms that I would fill out that somehow legitimize the existence--or the activities--of my child?

 

Mr. Stolyarov: Having children, i.e. assuming guardianship over another life, is absolutely different from allowing them to engage in supervised activities which are, by all accounts, harmless if inspected properly by parents! No parent would want a child to suffer while swimming or bike-riding and would take necessary precautions under the circumstances to prevent this. But it is for a reason that children are forbidden to smoke, drink alcoholic beverages, engage in fysical intercourse, etc., and parents who permit this are liable to be prosecuted. The guideline is this: when the activity is definitely harmful, the government has the right to interfere in the particular case where it occurs. No “precautionary measures” by the government are necessary, and I never advocated any.

 

As for you, Mr. Perigo and Mr. Howison, you are to be exposed for the context-dropping smear-hurling evaders that you are in my newest essay: “The Mark of the Fanatic.”

 

Here is a preview of what is to come:

 

  • How does “one of SOLO's most energetic & committed contributors” suddenly become “Fascist,” “like the Taliban,” and “un-Objectivist,” Mr. Perigo?

 

  • How does someone whose work is at one point judged as “awesome” become accused of being a “Fascist” by the same person, Mr. Howison?

 

You have evaded the world, not because I am in fact a statist or advocate of government regulation, but because I believe that there are moral standards to be followed in relationships and that the legal and the moral are not one and the same. You have lashed out at a thinker’s words without in fact knowing what these words are; your condemnation and absolute misconstruement of Mr. Firehammer’s position is a prime example of the sloppiness you allow into your thinking and expression. Despite my disagreements with Mr. Firehammer, I cannot help but admire his principled autonomy, and his willingness to align himself with no one or anyone depending on what others actually have to say on a given issue, rather than forming preconceived stereotypes that would forever blemish his future interactions. I have far fewer compliments to give you.

 

This thread will not degenerate into the “Organo-centrism” discussion, but the sentiments behind Mr. Emrich’s condemnation of you, Mr. Perigo, were well-warranted, even though his means of conveying them were not. You and nobody else managed to convince me of this, as I did not think so initially.

 

I am

G. Stolyarov II

Sanctions: 9Sanctions: 9 Sanctions: 9Sanctions: 9 


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 19

Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
G. you write:
 
The word I used was "encouraged." For example, if the parents do not get married, the government can simply withdraw its court services from the parents-- they will not be able to sue anyone until they assert the legitimacy of the child. No fines, imprisonment, or forced separation need be necessary.
 
Of course! How could I possibly think for one moment that the government was getting involved in the upbringing of children? 

The government, by abstaining from granting the unmarried parents (the monsters) justice in the judicial system, isn't actually acting, so it isn't getting involved except through negligence of its duty to protect the rights of the unmarried parents (the fiends).  Governments do not simply encourage.  The government's justified monopoly on force lends it a more potent form of coercion than simple encouragement.  But why stop at your "encouragement"?  It's the welfare of children we are talking about here.

And:
 
You will need to turn in nothing but your marriage license, once! (Or however many times you marry.)

What if I don't want to?  And if I don't and can't receive justice from the courts because I fail to "legitimize" my marriage or child, can I still be prosecuted under the same justice system that declines to serve me?

But, of course:

If parents violate the rights of another and continue to do so despite warnings to the contrary, who are they to demand protection of their rights from the government?

First, if the parents are actually violating someone's rights, then the government has the duty to take a hand in the matter.  But refusing to register their lives and their children's lives as being "official" and "sanctioned" by the State violates no one's rights, except those created by people wanting to make the government into a dictating nanny--even if it's a stand-offish one that simply refuses to act as its means of enforcement.

Second, all criminals--even convicted ones, though in this case we don't seem required to prove guilt or innocence--have a right to demand protection of their rights from the government.  It's not a case-by-case deal, where some folks have a right to protection and others don't.  The parents, just like their kids, have complete protection under the law--and just like the kids, only when their rights are violated, or they violate another's, should the State step in. 

Mr. Stolyarov: How many times do I have to say: THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT INVOLVED IN THE UPBRINGING OF CHILDREN UNDER MY SUGGESTION! before I can get the point across?
 
You can say it as many times as you like.  But, by refusal of its duty to seek justice for the parents simply because they don't get married, based on statistics that married people raise better kids makes the government involved, through omission.

You are referring to some of the purest, most innocent, and virtuous beings in existence—and you compare them to disgraceful murderers!
 
Not really.  I think of them as being the same as you or I, with less skills to cope with life.  They require the protection of the parents, and when the parents themselves violate an actual right the government should step in.  You want to--apparently--create another right, applicable only to children: the "right" to have parents that are in a State-sanctioned marriage.  That is a gun to the head.

But your contention is that since married people raise kids better, only married people deserve protection under the law--whether under criminal or civil proceedings you haven't made clear or I've missed reading.  By the non-act of the parents staying unmarried, the government has the (apparent) duty to protect one citizen's "rights" (the child) at the expense of another's (the parent's) by performing another non-act.  You say the government's non-act isn't official involvement, so how is the parents' non-act officially detrimental? 

And not for nothing, I'd still like a definition of the thin red line between neglect and good parenting.  At what point does the State decide a parent is acting in opposition to the child's welfare?  You've stated time and again that only when an activity is "definitely harmful" should the government step in.  I have no problem with this, under my definitions of what constrains the government.  But your own, which requires the State to refuse recognition of one citizen's rights (the parents) because of the statistically predicted violation of another's (the child), leaves quite a bit of room for the government to wiggle. If it can perform an effective non-act in response to the parent's non-act, why can't it step in when the parent does all sorts of other things that are objectively, verifiably (or statistically) harmful to a child's well-being, such as feeding them unhealthy foods and buying them risky toys, or letting them watch risque or violent television?

I fully accept that the benefits you describe for having kids are true--raising them, watching them learn and grow, so on.  However, these benefits do not presuppose marriage, and certainly not State-sanctioned marriage.  I can raise my kid effectively, happily, with all the benefits you describe, without the State refusing to allow me to seek justice in the courts.  That refusal does, however, presuppose the government has taken a stance on the social upbringing of children, and given the latitude I described above concerning the extent of the government's reach into a child's welfare, the trouble that might be had by conceiving seems to outweigh--morally and philosophically if not existentially--those benefits.

The Branden quote you site is wonderful.  It describes in detail the extent to which a parent should provide for the welfare of their kid.  Nowhere does it say the State should punish parents who don't want their relationship or non-relationship sanctioned or un-sanctioned by the same State that apparently doesn't see fit to protect their own rights.  Are single parents (the wretches) expected to expect this self-same State to honor their child's rights, if their own are seen as trivial compared to the empirical observations--and predictions that they aren't capable of raising children--that lead the State to take such a stance on these matters?

You've also written:
The guideline is this: when the activity is definitely harmful, the government has the right to interfere in the particular case where it occurs.  No “precautionary measures” by the government are necessary, and I never advocated any.  (emphasis yours)
 
Oh, yes you did! : P 

The government's single, all-encompassing prophetic "precautionary measure" is that it assumes one individual (the parent) must meet certain criteria (being married) before he or she is capable of protecting another individual's (the child's) rights.  The measure takes shape in the form of denying unmarried heathens their day in court, to one degree or another, and as far as I can tell, denying a parent or family's right to privacy is trivial compared to that--so why not take it a step further?  Or ten steps?  The children are in danger, Mr. Stolyarov.  They have special rights.  This problem requires the government to ensure all the protection humanly possible to prevent kids growing up wrong.  That's why it refuses to grant justice to unmarried people, right?  Am I still misrepresenting your stance, or proposal? 

On the nature of this topic as a whole:

You can't expect me or anyone else to not object to your proposal.  What you want is an invasion of privacy into the lives of citizens protected by a Bill of Rights.  No, it doesn't mean wire-taps and cigarette-cameras, but it does offer a threat in regards to the social decisions made by parents: "Do this, or there will be consequences!"  That's a fine ultimatum to give to criminals, but not to people just trying to raise their kids the best they can.  It is an invasion, by projecting the weight of the government's monopoly on force and justice into the realm of "parental obligations" that go beyond  feeding, clothing, cleaning, housing, not beating or otherwise physically harming, your child.  This is a huge deal to many people--marriage might just be the best way to raise kids, but the government--as has been stated many times by everyone here--has no business prescribing the correct methods for raising kids, beyond that law-abiding parents should just be left the hell alone, and should be able to retain their rights in the process. 
 
Beyond the mind-candy, debating with you aids my typing skills.  I'm gettin' carpal tunnels from just this one post.  : P

(Edited by Jeremy on 6/18, 1:06pm)


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.