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Post 160

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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Ellen, that is a great definition of determinism!

MSK, yea, it kinda does feel kinda sucky, doesn't it? It makes me feel somewhat depressed when I think about it. But how could it be any other way? Would you like to think that you are capable of changing the laws of reality, the relationships between the most fundamental parts of reality, simply with your own mind? (What philosophy is that?)

Instead of changing the relationships between the most fundamental parts of reality, your mind changes the state of the most fundamental parts, through operating on information and changing the operators in your brain. So your mind doesn't change the most fundamental relationships, but you do (by your own "will" or function or properties or abilities or relationships or laws) change higher level relationships, like what information you are currently operating on, what you store in long term memory, what you recall, what you senses you focus on, what your body does... etc.

I am confident that I will do what I end up doing no matter what, or that if that's not the case, then the case is that I am determined to do something but that something is determined by the outcome of perfectly random events... yet... I still find things that make my life worth living, so I live on. What's the point? I really do decide the point to my own life. I am determined to decide whatever I do end up deciding (by the nature of what I am and how I work), but still, I decide! : ) And... I am unable to know exactly what I will decide, since reality is so complex (too much data, and too many operations to figure it out before it happens).

To be, or not to be. That is the question. (Much of the situation and questions Shakespeare posed after this question do not apply or have been answered to a high degree of confidence by me.)

Post 161

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 5:14pmSanction this postReply
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Actually, I misspoke. He already did it, but without the LOLs. In post 146 he told Bill, “we are basically talking about the same thing” [!]

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Post 162

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

You know, I really don't get what value you obtain from such snarkiness, unless it is a form of Internet masturbation by imagining some kind of superior relationship to the Poster Of The Moment.

You have real talent as a comedy writer and sometimes good information. How about an article or something more constructive?

Beating off only goes so far. Then it gets boring to watch.

Michael


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Post 163

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 5:40pmSanction this postReply
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“…what value you obtain…”

I simply enjoy pointing out flagrant bullshit. With you, that’s easy, so I don’t get any feelings of superiority from it.

Innocent stupidity I forgive. Yours, though, which is invariably delivered with authority, I cannot leave alone.

Go back and read your posts from page six of this thread. Each one is full of snarky and stupid, starting with #122, (“Objectivism 101.”) Then, when your composure and the coherence of your position starts to fall apart, you appeal to the ethic of non-snarkism.

Doesn’t work with me.

Jon


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Post 164

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, you are insulting Michael, and I don't want to hear it. Maybe I wouldn't mind if I thought Michael was deliberately dishonest (and taking pleasure in wasting our time), but that's clearly not the case. Maybe he is choosing ignorance over knowledge of reality, and I don't like that, but by no standard are you bringing him justice by saying what you have said.

Michael, your calling him on it in a very provocative manner. I hope you don't continue to talk about it on this thread, but its understandable if Jon continues to attack you.

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Post 165

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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Dragonfly,

I have no problem with needing to learn more. I have a HUGE problem with defining the subject I am studying out of existence, to the point where it becomes identified as a nonessential detail. What you are talking about with awareness is the mind/brain connection, which is also a higher level of the more basic life/cell connection. Stating that a mind does not exist as an entity, nor life, and that they only exist as automatic processes of dead stuff, is too far gone for me.

(This next comment is for Dean, too.) About determinism, the whole concept that there can only be one possible future is wrong to me. How can there be something that isn't yet? The only thing we really know is that there will be a future. It doesn't exist right now, at this moment. Only the present exists and the past did exist (and exists in the present in memory and metaphysical leftovers). The future is just an open-ended wide range of possibilities.

Imagining the future with the essential characteristics of the present and past is to try to impose the human method of awareness on reality instead of capturing and processing what does exist.

Michael


Post 166

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 5:49pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

(yawn...)

Michael


Post 167

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Reality is everything that currently exists. That is always the case. Reality changes. We measure the change in various units, and we call it "time". You are correct to say that nothing in the future exist yet.

I'm not claiming that the future exists yet. What I claim is that given the current state of reality, and the relationships between all of its parts (how they change when interacting with each other), the next state is determined to happen, and no other next state could be possible.

Edit: the past doesn't exist either, but the current state of reality is the result of the past, and much "evidence" currently exists of what the past once was. For example, lets say you built a house. The materials that you made the house with in the past, in the way they were once before, do not exist in that state anymore. They are now in the current state of reality, changed, in the form of your house. Why do things from the past live exist into current reality? Because reality is "causal", it continuously is the previous state of reality except the state is slightly different through its "laws" which are the relationships between the parts of reality that cause it to change. I said "continuously", but I could be wrong about that. Maybe reality changes discretely?

Its like one freaking huge state machine. Probably infinite, because time and space are probably continuous. It might loop (go through the same states, arriving back where it started, looping and looping). It might be impossible for us to know whether it loops... but I'm sure that if it loops, then I don't live forever (because I would have never been born).
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 1/17, 8:17pm)


Post 168

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

Sincerely I see too many variables for only one future outcome.

Michael


Post 169

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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Ellen,

"Determinism is the thesis that 'there is at any instant exactly one physically possible future'


Of course,

I assume that you'd consider "free will" at minimum to entail more than one physically possible future.
...
"free will" to entail a purposeful selection amongst alternatives of action, not merely an indeterminist
(due to a quantum event)

It would only give you occasional "Epicurean swerves" (a point which apparently Penrose doesn't understand).


Agreed,

You added:

Even if one holds a theory such as Penrose proposes, that quantum effects in microtubules are sufficiently amplified in the brain so as to allow for more than one possible brain state S' at t2 resulting from brain state S at t1, this still doesn't give you purposeful direction of behavior.


My understanding is it is an immense help, hence all the research into quantum computing. Solutions, such as pattern-recognition can "crystalize". Having considered how to program a computer/robot to take directions to go to a store and buy groceries, having a quantum computer to simulate reasonableness of commands (the way we would visualize doing a task, mentally practicing it) would help a lot.

No, this doesn't have much to do with volition. Does Mr. Robot buy a banana or an orange at the store? Will Ms. Robot buy that cute plastic necklace in the checkout line because it thinks its pretty?

Another property of chaotic systems (like neural nets) is high-sensitivity, an ability to integrate very weak biases.

"Chance favors the prepared mind". The phenomena of "serendipity". Two people inventing the same thing at nearly the same time.

No, I'm not proposing some spooky Platonic nether-realm but a bias, a force consequent to nothing more than conservation of energy, and our illusory arrow-of-time. The direction of time, as a physical dimension, is there already. But the instant "now" is the point our mind's volition is swimming, oscillating through, and is changing the way the universe "evolves", or should I say developes.

But in order to support the reality of purposeful selection amongst alternate possible futures, one would have to propose that the conservation laws are breached. (Where's the extra energy coming from? And the change in momentum and angular momentum?)


Or that time and causality are illusory; that the future influences the past and present - teleology. Life "evolved" because a universe with life conserves energy, reaches thermal equilibrium, faster than one without it. Today we're using chemical energy, perhaps in the future some life form will be releasing potential energy on galactic scales, making the universe a bit smaller and more compact in the process by chucking mass in black-holes.

Chance-bias (luck) is like a balloon rising. You don't expect a balloon to rise. But the atmosphere has an imperceptable pressure-gradient, and imperceptable impulses from all those gas molecules squeeze the bottom and sides more than the top, and up it goes.

I suspect the universe has a kind of pressure-gradient in the time direction, nudging molecules at the plank-scale to invent clever configurations (life) to make the universe smaller, more compact, by liberating the order trapped in mass.

I don't think I'm too far out of line proposing something as radical as a violation of "causality" as we understand it now. I'm not alone in noticing some strangeness in the nature of evolution, consciousness and time.

Scott

Post 170

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Calopteryx,

That we strongly feel that more than one physically possible future exists doesn't mean that there really is more than one possible future. That this illusion is so convincing is due to the fact that we can't predict our own thought processes, so we don't know in advance where we'll arrive, and for us the future still seems to be open.


Ah but we do! So much in this universe is cyclical, we need only look at the past to predict the future. And then take action according to our will.


As you rightly observe, random factors like quantum indeterminism don't help one whit in creating "free will".


The "sum of all paths" is in space-time. Checkout Feynman-Wheeler absorber theory. If there wasn't an atom, such as in your eye, waiting in the future to absorb a photon from a star in a galaxy a million light-years away, that star couldn't have emitted that photon a million years ago.



I don't think so, and I've given my conjecture, my SWAG. Even if you're right, and free-will is illusory, we've still got other spooky stuff to deal with.

Scott

Post 171

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
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Changed my mind, don't want to get into it.

Sarah

(Edited by Sarah House
on 1/17, 8:23pm)


Post 172

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Just because its impossible for us to determine what the next state of reality will be (since it is so complex), doesn't mean that reality cannot be determinate. Below I assume there are no perfectly random events.

Lets say we have part of reality A and part of reality B. A and B attract, but they are also moving. No friction. You could imagine that they would loop around each other, that's what they would do. Real simple right? The next state would happen determinantly, given their current state and the relationships between A and B. Now lets add C. Still determinant. Now lets add D. Still determinant. E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, X, Y, Z, Still determinant. ... rest of reality until we get the Reality we are a part of. Still determinant.

It doesn't matter how many parts or how many relationships there are... given a state of reality and causal relationships between its parts, there can only be one next state (unless perfectly random events exist).

Like I said earlier, its impossible for us to predict the future perfectly because reality has too many parts and relationships to compute out the perfect answer before it happens (and we would have to use parts of reality to do the computation, so it really really would be impossible).

Post 173

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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Scott, separate your crackpot "science" from your well established science.

Edit: self getting a little too cocky.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 1/17, 8:46pm)


Post 174

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 10:22pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

So what you are saying is that when Jon came booming on the scene talking about eating and pooping, he had no real choice about it? He just had to do that? It was predetermined?

//;-)

Michael



Post 175

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 11:00pmSanction this postReply
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I boomed in earlier, at post 113, with advice which, had it been followed, would have saved you from making many embarrassing poops.

Post 176

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 11:43pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

I haven't been embarrassed at all. I do not have the authority problems that seem to bother you so much. (I generally like ideas much better than dumping on people anyway.)

There has been an awful lot of pooping going on, though. Waddya say we stop this crap?

Michael


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Post 177

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 5:30amSanction this postReply
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Michael, its misleading to say he had "no choice". His mind, he worked through many options of courses of action (an incredible number of courses of action are available to look at), and he decided to act on one of them. I call the process of thinking about various results of courses of actions, and choosing one of them to act on, I call that "deciding". The various courses of action are the "choices". If you don't choose, then you wouldn't be thinking about various courses of action and comparing what you think the results will be and doing the best one, instead you would simply be doing _something_, probably completely by habit or following another person's orders, or even doing nothing.

I'm confident that he couldn't have acted on a different course of action than he did when he got to the point he did, and he was the state he was in, and the rest of reality was in the state it was in. How could he have chose something different, if he was the same and the rest of reality was the same, and the relationships between the most fundamental parts of reality were the same? Because perfectly random events might exist? That's not something to be proud of.

You can be proud of the decisions you are currently making when their outcomes are what you expect them to be and when the means and ends are consistent with your goals and virtues. It is you, sifting through billions of trillions of courses of action, and deciding to act upon one of them. Or you can go "Boo-hoo, I'm determined to do what I do anyways, so I might as well just curl up into a ball in my bed and die." You now think about the various courses of action you can take, comparing their outcomes, and act upon one of them.

What do you want? What are your goals? They are determined by what part of reality you are and the relationships between you and the rest of reality and the relationships between your own parts, by what you are and what your context is and the relationships between, by who you are and what your context is and the relationships between, by you and what your context is and the relationships between.

Post 178

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 6:52amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

Objectivism locates free will in the choice to think, or more precisely, in the choice to focus. All your words about thinking versus doing are irrelevant to the Objectivist position on free will.

Are whether a person thinks (focuses), what a persons thinks and what he thinks about determined? Does the person himself have ultimate control over his focus?

Post 179

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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Dean: Lets say we have part of reality A and part of reality B. A and B attract, but they are also moving. No friction. You could imagine that they would loop around each other, that's what they would do. Real simple right? The next state would happen determinantly, given their current state and the relationships between A and B. Now lets add C. Still determinant. Now lets add D. Still determinant. E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, X, Y, Z, Still determinant. ... rest of reality until we get the Reality we are a part of. Still determinant.

It doesn't matter how many parts or how many relationships there are... given a state of reality and causal relationships between its parts, there can only be one next state (unless perfectly random events exist).
You seem to be mixing predictability in here it seems - maybe not, but it sounds like it. There can only be one possible next state, but it is not necessarily predictable, at least at small scales. 

A and B at small enough scales are not the same as at large scales.  If you get small enough, intuitively wierd things happen like the uncertainty principle which makes certain predictions impossible. 


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