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Post 120

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

When I have seen you in the past opposing some obvious fact, you’ve often done so on the grounds that, ‘next thing we’ll here is primacy of consciousness stuff.’ I have seen you argue against plain, unassailable facts because you believe them to be the first step on a road leading to some diabolical conclusion. This seems to be one of those cases. I am as uncomfortable as you are with determinism, but stopping Splendid in his tracks on a point like this will not do.

It is a scientifically proven fact that we are physically composed of water, carbon, etc. There is nothing in your body not included in the periodic chart. No special substances, only regular ones. I am not saying, he is not saying, no one is saying, that life does not have characteristics not found in a glass of water or a chunk of coal. (You may dislike that he denies some particular property, like volition, but he is not saying, hasn’t said, that there are no characteristics unique to life.)

Jon


Post 121

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 6:08pmSanction this postReply
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Ye noticed that, didn't ye.

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Post 122

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 6:10pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

Close, but no cigar. I am saying that life is a special form of existence that is conditional. The existence of inanimate matter is  not conditional. (Objectivism 101.) Life is not just a hierarchy of inanimate matter. It has its own special attributes that include, then transcend inanimate matter. It is something different than inanimate matter.

Without life to start with, there can be no other life. Try making it in a test tube. If we ever discover how to do that, we will uncover exactly what that essence is, but for now, denying that it exists qua essence negates individual volition at the highest level (man).

Michael



Post 123

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I'm confident that I or someone in my lifetime will make life in a test tube, and on a computer, all over the place with all sorts of parts of reality.

Reality is everything that exists. We are a part of reality. All of reality follows some non-contradictory causal laws. All of reality is either deterministic or there exists some perfect random events. We are volitional to different degrees. We look at various ways we could act, consider the consequences, and act upon one of the choices. This sets us apart from most other parts of reality we know of, which do not go through this particular process of operating on this particular information. Each of us are unique, we are all extremely different parts of reality with extremely different states and relationships. When I say "I", I am referring to the parts of reality that I am.
Without life to start with, there can be no other life.
That is most surely false, in the sense that life can only come from other life. Life is simply something that performs self-sustaining action. Reality need only have the properties/relationships between its parts that enable life to exist in order for there to be life. There need not be pre-existing life for life to exist.

"Self-sustaining action" has to be further refined. Reality changes, to say "self-sustaining" when speaking of life, we are not talking about sustaining the state of our atomic positions or our current mental state. Instead, we are talking about the process that our bodies, that we go through in order for some part/characteristic/process about ourselves to continue existing through the future. Otherwise we could say that your "inanimate matter" is alive because their elements influence each other to continue being in their current state (performing self-sustaining action).

Hmmm.. "inanimate matter" simply doesn't exist. Or if it did, we would have no way to know whether it did, because its "inanimate". Err, I'm saying we can only detect parts of reality that actually interact with other parts of reality that we can interact with. If there does exist some other things, "inanimate" to the reality that we interact with, then it doesn't matter at all, its completely independent and irrelevant.

What part of yourself do you find worth sustaining?

Post 124

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, you wrote:
There is nothing in your body not included in the periodic chart.
There certainly is. There's the thing that makes it all tick. And that thing gets born and dies. (It's called life.)

Just because it doesn't look like the things on a periodic chart, that doesn't mean it isn't an existent. It is.

We happen to study philosophy in order to better understand life. When philosophy leads you to conclude that life is a process of inanimate matter and nothing more, then that philosophy stinks. That position does not correspond to a simple reality that is observable by any two-year-old.

Michael

Edit: Dean, you wrote "That is most surely false..." regarding my statement that life must come from life. OK. If it is surely false, prove it. Nobody has so far. Life coming from life is observable. Where are the observations to the contrary?
(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 1/15, 8:32pm)


Post 125

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Michael SK,
Sigh. Perhaps you can pick up a basic biology and chemistry book to look it over first. You are a smart guy, a intelligent guy. A person is intelligent not because how many degrees he may have under his belt, but because he knows the limit of his knowledge. I suppose you know that, don't you?


Post 126

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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Hong,

I never claimed that the functions of inanimate matter change in living beings. They don't (although it seems that people want to push me there). I just claim that the existence of life is more than chemical reactions. How does that affect my intelligence?

Nathaniel Branden recently responded to a question (I forget by whom right now) asking him the following:

Q: What do you think consciousness is made up of?
A: Why, consciousness.

It is in that sense that I claim that life exists.

But let's do it.

Q: What is life made up of?
A (you guys): Processes of inanimate matter.

Let's do it again:

Q: What is life made up of?
A (me): Why, life.

So I will ask you also. Have you observed life being created from scratch out of inanimate matter, or know of someone who has? Will that be in the basic textbooks you advised me to read?

Michael



Post 127

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 9:27pmSanction this postReply
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“Have you observed life being created from scratch out of inanimate matter?”

Yes. Every time I eat [dead stuff], poop [dead stuff] and go on living.


Post 128

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 9:44pmSanction this postReply
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Move on folks.

Nothing to see here.
(Edited by Jon Letendre
on 1/15, 9:55pm)


Post 129

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 10:30pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

You created life from inanimate matter? You weren't alive when you ate and pooped? How did you pull that one off? I don't understand...

Sorry the technical jargon like, "from scratch," threw you for a loop and you didn't get my meaning. I will try to be clearer next time.

(You're right. Better move on...)

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 1/15, 10:43pm)


Post 130

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 10:43pmSanction this postReply
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I have a mysterious force that transforms Kibbles-N-Bits into posts on an internet forum.

Which part don’t you understand?


Post 131

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 10:46pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,
Which part don’t you understand?
How one eats and poops Kibbles-N-Bits without being alive...

Michael


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Post 132

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 10:47pmSanction this postReply
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Michael wrote,
If we are individuals, we are an individual something. Not individual processes.
Yes, we are individual living organisms, but a living organism is characterized by a specific (biological) process; it is the individual that engages in the process.
A living thing comes into existence. This is called birth. It goes out of existence. This is called death. That thing did not exist before birth and does not exist after death. Inanimate matter does not act that way, nor does it have that attribute.
You're right, inanimate matter does not act that way--it does not come into existence and go out of existence, but things do--be they living organisms (like animals and trees) or inanimate objects (like houses, glaciers, planets and even stars). What may be confusing you is the following passage from Galt's speech, in which he states:

There is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or nonexistence--and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of llfe is not: it depends on a specific course of action. Matter is indestructible, it changes its forms, but it cannot cease to exist. It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death.

This passage may appear ambiguous, given the reference to "inanimate matter" as unconditional. However, Galt also says, "Matter [not inanimate matter] is indestructible," which clarifies his meaning, because it is clear that both living entities and non-living entities are destructible. Both can come into existence and go out of existence. "Inanimate matter" in this context simply means matter (as such), understanding that the matter of which living organisms are composed is not itself alive; rather it is the particular form or organization of the matter that is alive; in other words, it is the entity or organism that possesses life (not the matter of which it is composed). There is no such thing as "animate matter" as a special constituent of living organisms in virtue of which they acquire the properties of life, which is how you may be construing it. As for existence or non-existence pertaining only to living organisms, Galt is referring not to existence or non-existence as such, but to the fundamental alternative of existence or non-existence. When he says that the existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not," he means that its existence depends on the necessity of goal-directed action in the face of an alternative. Obviously, there is a sense in which even the existence of an ice cube is conditional; its existence depends on certain conditions of temperature; lacking those conditions, it will cease to exist, just as life will if conditions do not support its existence. There is, as Dragonfly notes, no elan vital, no mysterious life force that exists over and above the laws of physics and chemistry. Teleological causation is not an alternative to physical causation, but a complex emergentist form of it. The action of living organisms is both physical and teleological.
Life does use inanimate matter, but it also exists. I am more than a process of rearranged inanimate matter going through some mystical process that has no characteristics of its own. Life is an existent, just as much as an atom is. Life exists.
On the contrary, life is simply a process of rearranged (inanimate) matter--rearranged in such a way that it acts in a goal-directed manner--that it exhibits the properties of final causation rather than simply mechanical or efficient causation (to use Aristotle's terminology). There is nothing mystical about it, however. On the contrary, it is the vitalist conception of life, which you seem to be defending, that has a mystical connotation, because it suggests an immanent "life force" or entelechy that governs and regulates the organism's action over and above the physical properties of the entity itself.
It's really strange discussing this on an Objectivist forum.
Not at all; this is precisely the sort of thing that one might expect to be discussed. :-)

- Bill


Post 133

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 11:07pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,
I'll go easy on you. What are the three kingdoms of life?


Post 134

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 11:11pmSanction this postReply
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I’m having fun with you. My post 127 was not serious. You are correct that none of us has observed spontaneous creation.

And I am correct that 2 + 2 = 4. You just seem to think your point proves a lot more than I think mine does.


Post 135

Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Thank for the non-snarky answer. You wrote:
Teleological causation is not an alternative to physical causation...
Wherever did I claim that? I spoke of no alternatives. No either-or. On the contrary, I mentioned that people are pushing me there. I spoke of life being a form of existence with ADDED attributes.

I find it strange that people say that life does not have any special attributes not contained in inanimate matter. They acknowledge that the existence of life is conditional and, as you quoted from AS, the existence of inanimate matter is not conditional.

So, what make life's existence conditional, then? If it is simply rearranged inanimate matter, then the life itself it would merely change form on death, not cease to exist. Where does it go?

It doesn't really exist? That's the answer? Or it's merely an attribute or a process of something nor the other, meaning that an attribute or process can cease to exist, but a special type of existent cannot? That sounds an awful lot like playing word games.

I can't buy it, either.

Life exists. It is special and has special laws that govern some aspects of its existence that do not apply to inanimate matter. Ceasing to exist is one of them. Coming into existence is another.

To be clear and try to head off the pushing I mentioned above, all of the attributes of inanimate matter not included in the special attributes of life ALSO apply to life. But SOME attributes are specific to living organisms only, and are not included in inanimate matter.

How can anyone disagree with that? It sounds like we are philosophizing ourselves out of existence...

Michael


Edit - Hong, I had to do a Google on that one, since I am not a scientist and have not done much reading on molecular biology, but the answer I found for the three kingdoms of life is archea, eubacteria and eukarya. (I prefer King Arthur type stuff myself...)  I even got a basic notion of what they were. But it seems that they still have the attributes of coming into existence and ceasing to exist and this is something specific to life and MORE THAN a change of form.

Edit 2 - Jon, whoever said I can think? There is no "I," just some kind of process running...  //;-)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 1/15, 11:45pm)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 1/15, 11:47pm)


Post 136

Monday, January 16, 2006 - 12:24amSanction this postReply
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?????????????

I suggest we just give it to him…

Yes, Michael. Life exists. Some here were pushing you into a corner where it doesn’t, but you were strong. It does exist. And it is special. You were right all along.

Sleep tight.


Post 137

Monday, January 16, 2006 - 12:49amSanction this postReply
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Dayaamm!

Right when I was starting to get accustomed to my non-existing essence and actually being a process of tiny lumps of stuff instead, all bunched up.

Is sleep a process of inanimate matter too?

(See, I'm starting to learn...)

Michael


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Post 138

Monday, January 16, 2006 - 6:19amSanction this postReply
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MSK: Who asserted that there is no difference between the living and the non-living? You said "it was asserted," but I couldn't find it. I didn't see anybody come right out and state it clearly. I have been seeing people talk all around it.
Well if it wasn't explicitly asserted before, Cal did later

"No, the point is that the laws of physics and chemistry are the same for life as for inanimate matter. From a purely physical viewpoint there is nothing special about life, even if it does exhibit features that are not found elsewhere."

However, it's pretty obvious that we're somehow different from inanimate matter.   Our physical sciences though are inadequate it seems to describe it. 


Post 139

Monday, January 16, 2006 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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MSK: You created life from inanimate matter? You weren't alive when you ate and pooped? How did you pull that one off? I don't understand...
Organic matter has been experimentally created spontaneously from inorganic matter given the right conditions.  This is generally thought to be the first steps to creating life from the basic elements.  True?  Open to interpretation I guess.

But essentially, I'm agreeing with you that life is "something", but any conclusions on the nature of this "something" are just speculations. 



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