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Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 9:46pmSanction this postReply
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"What kinds of fantasies are not justified? Those with no intellectual or moral application to human life—for instance, the movies about man-sized ants from another planet invading the earth. "Wouldn't it be horrible if ants suddenly conquered the earth?" Well, what if they did? If those ants at least symbolized some special evil—if, like animals in a fable, they represented dictators or humanitarians or other human monsters—such a story would be valid. But fantasy for the sake of fantasy is neither valid nor interesting."

She did not "get" it, did she?

Of course, by this standard, Kang and Kodos from The Simpsons would be all right because they do represent our own evils.  (Of course, so does Homer, but that is another subject entirely.)  I like their appearence in the Halloween "Monkey's Paw" story where Lisa wishes for total world disarmament, and Kang and Kodos come down from orbit brandishing slingshots, but we chase them away -- "Look out! The human has a board with a nail in it!"

And, painfully, there were no movies (plural) "about man-sized ants from another planet invading the earth" but only Them.  (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047573/)  The ants were of our own making, coming from the New Mexico desert where we exploded atomic bombs.  So, this is a morality play, right?  Also, once they are out, chasing them down requires some thinking and doing by scientists -- and a little love interest because the one scientist is a nubile female.  We, the viewers, have to piece the clues together -- though the theater posters told us what to expect.  All in all, I liked Them then and I like Them now.  Ants are so trivially harmless -- well, fire ants are not -- that the scariest part of a story like this is "the world turned upside down."  What if everything you thought you knew was suddenly proved false??  What if sharing was evil?  What if taxation was theft?  What if capitalists were heroes?  We called them "atoms" because they were uncuttable.  Then we split them...

These monster movies follow certain formulas and one of the continuing elements is that all of the guns and bombs and things are useless and we have to think our way out of this.  The heroes -- and villains -- are scientists, which is why this is all (loosely, perhaps) "science fiction."  Atlas Shrugged fits into the genre.  Does the new mode of electrical power generation "represent" something (like a new philosophy) or is it just what it is, an unreal, anti-reality fantasy element?  Or is it an exciting new idea, not allowed by present knowledge, but what if...  Would the man who invented it be hailed as a hero or condemned as a destroyer?

Robots can have attributes that humans cannot, such as altruism according to Asimov's Three Laws.  We have computers now, we have machines.  We wear contact lenses, hearing aids and cardiac pacemakers.  Given the existence of an android -- a biomechanical "man" what then is the definition of "man"?  This has been attacked many times from many angles in science fiction, but my favorite is the Star Trek: Next Generation episode Measure of a Man. 
 
This is a recurrent theme for STNG. The episode Tinman is about a sentient lifeform that is a spaceship.  Silicon Avatar deals with a lifeform that actually scours planet surfaces clean of all life -- including the humans -- and yet, Captain Picard and the Enterprise crew attempt to defend it.  Perhaps some people might not be able to tolerate ten minutes of this unless you told them that the Avatar was a quasi-free semi-socialist society or something...  To me, it was just a lifeform, much like the wasps in my attic whom I can kill or for whom I can open the window... 

All art comes down to who you are inside.


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Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 2:08amSanction this postReply
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Tinman was a rip-off of Anne McCaffery's Ship who Sang...

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
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     Re Rand's reference that "But fantasy for the sake of fantasy is neither valid nor interesting." Clearly she didn't consider 'valid' as the ONLY criteria for judging genres; if it's at least 'interesting,' the genre could apparently be...worthwhile. Also clearly, she's talking in 'subjective' terms ('Interesting'...to whom?). What confuses me re that statement is that by 'valid' she couldn't have meant 'justifiable' else 'interesting' would be irrelevent. Not sure just what 'valid' meant there.

     Also, she certainly was talking as an adult.
     I was a kid when I saw Them and, per 'fantasy,' I was delighted. Delighted for reasons that no longer apply for me to that movie.  It showed a 'fascinatingly different world' than I, at age 6, was already aware of around me. GIANT ANTS ATTACKING A CITY! WOW! And my 1st SF book: Star Man's Son (aka Daybreak: 2250 AD) by Andre Norton (Alice Mary Norton d. 2005) one of the 1st 'post-Armageddon' novels starting the sub-genre, about a solitaire wanderer (think Waterworld) in a post-apocolyptic remnant of a sentient-mutant world. WOW! --- But, for 'adults' such vicarious visits to 'other worlds,' per se, do really lack unless they merely are background adding to a special 'foreground' point; in books anyway. Yet, the 'fantasy' genre has been selling well for decades, if B&N stores are any indication. As well, put some of it on screen with today's digital magic (I WILL see the new King Kong remake), and I'm ready to go back to my young Harryhausen days. Funny the difference therein for some of us re books and movies; book-wise, my only interest in this genre now (well, since I later discovered Clarke and Heinlein...and Analog) is in 'hard' SF...with a point other than travel-elsewhere/elsewhen into only 'escapist'-adventures.

     No, Mike, I disagree that "She did not 'get' it, did she?" Put that way, I'm sure she didn't "get" the Marx Bros and their ilk. But I'd say that she merely, personally, had no interest in such (that was done, anyway), and that's all there is too it. Such was a waste of time...for her framework of interest. Much like a chef having no interest (or, not "getting") in architects' professional interests...and vice-versa. Ironically though, she did consider SFiction (not Fantasy) a potential venue for a story or two by her; no doubt done 'her' way, had she done it. Wonder how THAT would've affected the SFiction genre? (I know: some consider AS as SFiction; I doubt if she did, by her 'meaning' of SFiction, which methinks even she distinguished from Fantasy.)

     A last point about Them and their movie-story ilk. She probably didn't "get" that that movie (and all later ones) did have a 'point:' they were new, updated versions of the (ostensible) point of Frankenstein which was "There are some things man was not meant to know/do." (Them resulted from use of the atomic bomb.) Such is no different a point from most of Michael Chrichton's books/movies nowadays.

     Anyhoo, good post.

LLAP
J:D


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Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Call me a libertarian, but I think enjoying bad art is a victimless crime.  ;-)

Seeing as this is the dissent forum, I feel free to say that Rands comments on what makes "good art" seem just plain loopy the more I read of 'em.  Is it really so un-Objectivist to say that great art speaks to our whole consciousness, not just the rational and waking part?  I'm sorry, she just sounds like a Sunday School teacher with this stuff.

I see SOLOists having to defend their love of a Sting song, because it lacks uplifting lyrics, when music itself is uplifting.  Philosophically, Billy Holiday sings almost nothing but malevolent tripe, but the power of her voice transforms these miserable rants into rapturous odes to memory and losses felt and overcome.  Her singing reminds me of one of my favorite non-Objectivist sayings:  crying makes room for strength.

Music in particular reflects our feelings and often the feelings that we need to feel are resoundingly negative.  After a painful breakup, our feelings of grief and rage and jealousy may make us feel abnormal or insane, but Billy Holiday reminds us that it's all part of the mystery of being human.  Sometimes (I said, sometimes) I get the feeling Ayn wanted to remove all mystery from our lives.

Here's a bit from the preface to The Fountainhead
I write--and read--for the sake of the story...My basic test for any story is: 'Would I want to meet these characters and observe these events in real life?  Is this story an experience worth living through for it's own sake?  Is the pleasure of contemplating these characters an end in itself?'...
By these criteria, she could be talking about porn.  Furthermore, she would have to avoid Hamlet, Othello, and especially Macbeth--who would want to observe all those stabbings and poisonings and plain cussedness in real life?  Porn is in, Tragedy is out.

I think there are novels and art that are meant to challenge our values, to test how deep our convictions run by showing us precisely how bad things can get--or even showing us things getting worse than our reason would allow us to expect.  1984 is a ghastly book, with a ghastly ending.  As I move through it's pages I can hear myself saying to Mr. Orwell in my mind, "But you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong."  And I imagine his novel as a constant rejoinder of "Are you so sure?  Are you?  Are you?"  I call that story ultimately (after the interminably boring middle section) bracing and harrowing and a brilliant vision.  I'm glad I read it.

I guess what I'm saying is, "No, Michael, as far as I can tell, she didn't.  She really didn't." 

-Kevin

(Edited by Kevin Haggerty on 10/06, 1:05pm)


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Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 3:47pmSanction this postReply
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Everytime I hear about Rand's dislike of this or that painting, story, or song, I think back to WE THE LIVING and her take on the International Anthem: the lyrics were communist poison, the music however was a spirit raising anthem. She got it.
The giant bugs and fantasy-for-fantasy sake interest me as a guilty pleasure, if it's truly guilty at all. I like to draw such things, usually robots or dragons or monsters, and often they have no purpose other than for fun. Nothing more than B-movie material, no problem. But if one wants to do something with more substance, the monsters and robots have to be integrated with existence and have some point or thought behind them. Actually, one of the things that appealed to me about Rand was that she used such examples, for example, her references to immortal robots, stranded astronauts confronting unknown creatures, subatomic worlds where the dumbest mini-creature can comprehend self-evidently what the smartest humans cannot. Atlas Shrugged has the Thompson Harmonizer and the Galt Motor, which earned it attention at the Seattle Sci Fi Museum. And she was a fan of Walt Disney.
She got it.

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