About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I defend Abstract Expressionism as an objective artform, one which represents honest Human expression, sometimes in symbolic form, and which could be understood timelessly by human culture. Music is an artform that embodies not representational idealism, but ideal emotions(good music anyway). It is not enough for a "musician" to sit down with out a thorough knowledge of musical concepts and play any crap he chooses to call emotional whims. One must have a firm grounding, whether organized by theory or not, of what music is and how to communicate with it. This is not to say, however, that spontaneity in music is always bad(Sonic Youth- rock band- praises individuated song form- experiments in improvisation. If an artist who believes firmly in life improvises, then it is reasonable that the feelings expressed by that unbridled stream of consciousness should speak of his sense of life. Being a musician, and a person who loves the feeling of pure directed focus, musical improvisation provides me with the experience of un-cut invention. and since the feelings of achievement present themselves in me with each note I play, the satisfaction grows, the emotion becomes more focused and directed. In doing this I feel less in control in away, as though a somnambulist. But this is only a feeling. I am in control, because it is my consciousness, my emotions, and my talent that allows me to materialize feeling with sound and bring an improvisation to life.

This stuff about music is not the focus of this essay, i just wanted to make clear my stance on improvisation for the sake of another point I'll make on the subject of Abstract Expressionism. And, also i am not primarily a musician. It is just something i enjoy. i was in a band once, but i quit because in coming to age my band mates had become a Marxist square, an Existentialist drug-addict, and an ideologicically-vacant drug-addict(acid). I am actually a painter, and my work in Abstract Expressionism has revealed to me its potential.
Like music it is a nonrepresentational artform that is created by a process of concious arrangement of parts. Whether color or sound, these parts are both vibrations, visual and audible vibrations percieved by the brain. And since these arrangements of perceptual data are built by Human(rational or, and often, irrational) concepts of structure they are, in a sense of a likeness to human thought and emotion. Everything in the universe is vibration of energy, and since it is from this energy that a conciousness is grown, vibratory sensations lies at a very deep level in our humanity, our sense of enjoyment, and art epitomizes this Human constant and makes it into a directed activity that engages the viewer or listener in a conscious process of (in the case of music)-non-representational introspection and emotional response.

I don't understand why music should be different from visual art in the sense of not being representational. A Human's reality is created as much(perhaps) by sound as it is by visualization. Why is it that this singular sensual activity should be regarded exempt from the philisophical necessities of other media described by Ayn Rand.
By asking this, my intention is to simply raise the idea. I know what the answer is. Music is beautiful. Period. It makes Human's feel good. But to deny that this logic does not apply to color is strange to me. It is the one idea I can't agree on with Ayn Rand. Color arrangement can have the force, dynamism, and rational continuum, of any song. True, it must be explored further than it has, and it was the subectivity of emotion-driven -isms of modern art that brought it to a point within the scope of human ingenuity. But even these forms of art, Impressionism, Post Impressionism, German Expressionism, Futurism carry along within the dust of their collective clouds instances of genius. For instance, Edvard Munch, an original pioneer of expression through color organization, often expressed humans in an austere and beautiful sense. Duchamp, although a believer in nihilism and anti-art(Dada) concepts, his abstraction and symbolic representation of motion in "Nude Descending a Staircase" is fascinating, and represents positive human values in that it stands for thought, reexamination, and the power of an individual to create a symbol devoid of cultural imaging and brought to existence in the image of a single mind, but understandable by Mankind.

Abstract Expressionism takes this function to its highest form, in visual art any way.

It creates parallels with human consciousness through, like music, not re-creation but rather volitional action. Like music, the style in which the tone is applied is essential to expression in that it gives depth to the sound or color used. Expressive mark making gives the space a Human Integrity(as opposed to non-being fantasy) . I believe that mark carries integrity and stands for the integrity of its maker. This is a concept lacking in such preceding movements as Fauvism, Cubism, and Futurism. These artforms, if one can call them that, embark on interesting concepts of arrangement, abstraction and motion, but are lacking in human integrity, for they were, although stepping forward in thought, inhibited by barriors that began where their philosophies ended. Abstract Expressionism is the embodyment of everything modern in art, and is perhaps the exaltant point which the "pioneers" of modern art sought to avoid, by shackeling their peices with barred aesthetic.
Those who say that the form is not art because it lacks the necessity of faculty, are belligerent fools. It is ignorant to say that all Pollock did was hurl paint a canvas based on whims. Pollock's understanding of dynamism and his incredible control of line form are of the highest artistic genius. Krasner is a master of direction emphasis and depth, and has one of the most striking faculties to create consistent mark forms. I feel the same way about much of de Kooning's work.
Please, give me arguments. I do feel strange questioning the aesthetic philosophy of a woman with such incredible artistic strength, but I feel that even if at the bottom of this inquiry I change my view of Abstract Expressionism, I feel it will have been worthwhile to question, consistently and objectively to question, for one must always question ideas, so to find their faults and improve general theory, and if not for anything else, to know what one is rejecting so to understand the nature of what they embrace.
And if you haven't viewed much or simply don't like Abstract Expressionism, try viewing a peice now, after considering this essay.

Post 1

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 10:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Welcome, Andrew. Since this is a dissent thread, and you've asked for arguments, I'd like to invite you into the Music forum so you can gain access to some of the pre-existing discussions and arguments on the matter (still building the archives, but there's a few things there already you may find helpful).

I'd like to discuss an aspect of this with you, but first I need to obtain a visual example that I'd like to share with you from the library, which I can do tomorrow. In the meantime, regarding this sentence:

"Those who say that the form is not art because it lacks the necessity of faculty, are belligerent fools."

Belligerent fools aside, you might be interested in the etymology of the term art:

"art, skill, craft," "fit together, join" As an adj. meaning "produced with conscious artistry (as opposed to popular or folk). Fine arts, "those which appeal to the mind and the imagination..."

The Greeks, in regards to music, I believe, were the first to distinguish arts from esthetics. ARTists were seperated from ARTisans by the emphasis on esthetics, which did not have a "utilitarian" purpose beyond contemplation (which is where the Muses came in). Both certainly imply forms in their work, but the difference is in the function. Form is certainly a part of art, but is it the art itself? Is it esthetic?

(And it's no coincidence that the principle thinkers in the matter, Plato and Aristotle, disagreed over the existence of "ideal forms". But, taking Plato on his own terms, if the forms are pre-existing, an artist/esthetician cannot create forms, only "recreate" them, so in that sense, form would not be art in itself, but the subject of art. BUT, if there was a primacy of conscious, that would imply a creator who created the "ideal forms", making him the supreme artist and mankind mere imitators of that artist's work, creating imperfect forms. Safer ground is Aristotle's assertion that the universe exists sans consciousness (ok, there's the matter of the prime mover), but not necessarily sans form, so that forms are pre-existent and archetypal in some manner. That would mean the artist does not create form but utilizes it?)
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 11/11, 10:11pm)

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 11/12, 2:05am)


Post 2

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 1:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hey Andrew, welcome.

Three questions to get to know you better:
1) Dine or Francis?
2) Weisman or Walker?
C) Flanders or Theiss?

Best,
J


Post 3

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Reading these links might give food for thought...

http://www.aristos.org/aris-03/art&cog.htm/
 http://www.artsjournal.com/letters/20030129-3352.shtml
http://www.artsjournal.com/letters/20030205-3458.shtml


Post 4

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
jonathon,
i visit both of those museums occassionally, and i rarely find compelling work at the Weisman, and the 'wierd for the sake of weird' building design is pretty stupid, in my opinion. It didn't surprise me when i learned that it was designed by a group.
Right now there is a pair of sculptures at the Walker: two men, head and torsos only_ sculpted in realistic fashion. the two men are staring into eachother's eyes, and the positioning of their bodies creates the beginning of a spiral. i really love that one. there are also two pieces made by Japenese Abstact Expressionists that i enjoy, and another by DeKooning.
I'm sorry I am not familiar with the other names.


Joe,
Maybe "Belligerent fools" was a bit strong, but I have worked so hard to master splatters, and strokes, and color arrangement, that it pisses me off when people assume it requires no talent. I'll put some of my own work on this site in the next couple weeks if i find time, and a camera.



Post 5

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I can relate, Andrew. I can draw figures and objects, but I can't paint texture to save my life.

Post 6

Monday, November 14, 2005 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andrew,
Regarding the museums, I'm the other way around as far as the architecture is concerned. The Weisman design is much more fun, and the new expansion of the Walker doesn't do much for me. Maybe it'll grow on me (Btw, I didn't realize that Gehry had design assistance with the Weisman. I've never really read much about the project. Thanks for the info).

As far as the other names I asked about, Flanders Contemporary Art and Theiss Gallery are my favorites in Minneapolis. Flanders shows a variety of genres of regional to international talent, where the Theiss Gallery seems to focus more on regional talent with a representational bent. Both are worth visiting.

And works by renowned abstract artists Jim Dine and Sam Francis have been displayed at Flanders. I have a very tough time choosing a favorite between the two. Dine's work seems deeper, but Francis' seems happier. Tough call.

Best,
J



Post 7

Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Further thoughts on this subject...


http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2005/abstract/ross1.asp

(Edited by robert malcom on 11/14, 4:09pm)


Post 8

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Do you guys consider music art?


Post 9

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Music is the art to which all other arts aspire."

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 10

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A pretty girl who naked is
is worth a million statues.
- e. e. cummings

Post 11

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mike-
How the hell did you find something that redeeming from e.e. cummings?  I sanction that post and that sentiment.  Indeed, indeed.


Post 12

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thank you Jody.

I like many of ee cummings poems. I also enjoyed "six non-lectures" when I was just out of high school. He was a pretty independent thinker though certainly not a philosopher or scientist. He said "The only true profession of man is poet". [Paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact words]. I know he sort of goes over like a lead balloon here, but I think he has his moments. Like the above, my favorite.

Post 13

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andrew, re your original post, here's what I wanted to share, thought you might appreciate this. This is taken from Scott McCloud's UNDERSTANDING COMICS:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Post 14

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Post 15

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Post 16

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ok, so I find the problem presented by these examples to be similar to the one in music of how certain scales and intervals invoke emotions. WHY is it that these abstract shapes and lines evoke these emotions?

Post 17

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 9:07amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There is some good sense in the Objectivist manifesto of what art is, in terms of romanticism, for one thing. But, it is limited. No, I don't find piss in a jar to be art, and I don't really even think much of it as expression. It was hard enough to accept John Cage's 4'33" of silence (which, as has often been pointed out, isn't silence at all, but maybe some of the more overt performance art out there).

When I say "limited," I mean just that, and artists by nature do not work well when screwed into confines- it is too hard to be prolific, too hard to explore.

That being said, I will also say that I find most abstract art and experimental music to be lame, and it isn't because I don't "understand" it. A lot of times people have impacted the artistic world without being crafty. Consider the punk movement in music- people were sick of grandiose arena rock, and there came the Sex Pistols, putting a shot back in the arm. It was a political statement about the state of populus music.

There are different kinds of art, but art is not defined purely by the level of "craft" aspect it contains. Craft-focused art (including music) has a very different purpose than other things, and it shows. It is very often inner-directed, showing the discipline of the craftsman.

One man's drink is another man's poison, you know...?


Post 18

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rich:"Consider the punk movement in music- people were sick of grandiose arena rock, and there came the Sex Pistols, putting a shot back in the arm. It was a political statement about the state of populus music. "

SOME people were sick of grandiose arena rock, boo for them. Arena rock still remained popular among average fan, it was radio that pandered to this rebellion, partly out of rejection of the failure of the sixties revolution, to forget their hippie past, NOT by replacing it with new values, but by rejecting value altogether. The New York punks like the Ramones were morons who couldn't play the Beatles's songs they wanted to play, so they dumbed them down to 3 chords and no dynamics. The English punks were rebelling against the British class system, but in a misguided way, acting as crabs in the bucket trying to pull the good musicians down. If they were merely reacting against decadence, that would be one thing, but they embraced the "no future" mindset. The Sex Pistols could barely play. But they were phonies. (Johnny Rotten was caught with a Van Der Graff Generator album under his arm.) And the sheep jumped on the bandwagon, and suddenly it was no longer acceptable to actually play music with more than an idiot's level of intelligence. IT WAS A MARXIST BASED REBELLION AT THAT. Oh, and it was nihilistic in a true sense of the word.

But if it was to continue, what had to happen? The musicians had to progess...and then we had new wave and the Clash. And the Clash were accused of selling out because (a) they actually developed and (b) they signed to a major label (they claimed they were going to destroy it from the inside). 25 years later, punk has been neutered by capitalism, an 8 year old's rebellion promoted by Clear Channel with no real teeth (Fuck Green Day and AMERICAN IDIOT.)

Thank God for the New Romantics. (Duran Duran!)

The only truly decent that could be said to truly come out of punk was the DIY (Do IT Yourself) philosophy. But that idea was already rampant in capitalism, and to a much better degree. The reason why "arena rock" was so much better than punk is because the artists agreed on a division of labor with the recording and distribution companies, enabling better sound quality, better sounding shows, and better packaging. The punks settled for dirty basements, crude sound, wheat paste fliers and the mosh pit.

Rant over.

Post 19

Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 8:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I dunno, Joe. I'm not sure if there was anything civilized that would have gotten it done. The record industry was a nasty dinosaur back then (but isn't it always). The shows were getting ridiculous, it was starting to be Spinal Tap, although of course there was some amazing stuff that I cherish.

I disagreed with the punk movement, mainly with their lifestyle and politics, which to me were not communist but more along the lines of stupid anarchy, if you get my drift.

But it was funny, too, they had energy, and it came across in shows. I was there, out playing pretty heavy back then. Punk bands often blew the snot out of other bands on pure octane.

I saw the Ramones back then. That had to be one of the most horrible things I've ever witnessed, but the parody cracked me up. I liked the show, gawd knows why. It was weird for me because at the time I was very into technical playing- I was trying to hit benchmarks set by people like McLaughlin, Fripp, Holdsworth, and so on. And yet, these morons come in and they have a fantastic fucking show. I suddenly realized that there was more to music than technical expertise. Actually, I guess what it was that I started to look at it from a pure show-biz aspect, entertainment that was more vauldville than theater rock.

Even Fripp himself felt the influence- remember his League of Gentlemen band?

Now, in visual art, I think there's a lot out there. I think that there is not a lot of reason to go to the old Jackson Pollock type criticisms. There's more precision and variety out there.


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.