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Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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Under the Articles Discussion in a thread entitled "Indians and Finance Reform," Robert Davison quoted excerpts from Bob Bidinotto's critique of anarchism, which were very good. Unfortunately, an anti-anarchist argument was made there that I think is incorrect. I'm not sure who made the argument, because in certain sections of Davison's post, involving dialogue between Bidinotto and anarchist respondents, it was unclear who the speaker was. At one point, it appeared that Davison was expressing his own views, because Bidinotto was referred to in the third person, but no distinction was made between these remarks and Bidinotto's. At any rate, here is the argument, by Davison or Bidinotto, with which I disagree.

First you object to licensing, so anyone with any degree of experience or lack of it can be a protection agency; all they need is the start up capital.
Second, would you not want licensed Doctors? Who would license them? A private agency is your answer. Which private agency, and how could they earn a living doing it? The first person or investigative reporter who purchased the information would disseminate it. It would be available in the public library, no profit there. The only people who could make a living promoting such a licensing agency would be doctors themselves. They would probably form a guild that would put a stamp of approval on physicians, and exclude those doctors who chose not to pay their ‘dues’. The guild would, of course, be coercive, a closed shop, just as labor unions are. Some doctors would resist and you would have unlicensed Doctors practicing, especially among the poor, at a reduced rate, but you would have no measure of their competence. By virtue of their poverty the poor would be disadvantaged, and don’t kid yourself "the poor will always be with us".

This argument is fallacious, even by Objectivist standards. For a refutation of it, see Alan Greenspan's article, "Assault on Integrity" in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. See also Markets Don't Fail by Objectivist economist Brian Simpson (which is available from the Ayn Rand Bookstore). A passage from Simpson's book is worth quoting in this context:

In essence, licensing laws prevent many trades form taking place that otherwise would have taken place without the initiation of physical force or fraud. This is true because anyone who can do a competent job in a given field but is unable to meet the minimum requirements set by the government will not be able to legally provide the service. This is true even if the person barely misses achieving the minimum requirements, and even if the person could get people to purchase his services voluntarily, with full knowledge of the skill level involved. Thus, many beneficial trades will not occur that would have otherwise taken place.... Without regulation, it will not be the case that anyone will be able to enter and compete in any field he wants to regardless of his skills. Barbers and butchers will not be able to become doctors under capitalism. Without regulation, competition will establish education and performance requirements. Those who provide services will have to get people to buy their services voluntarily and thus will have to provide a level of quality that is acceptable to their customers. If they cannot get people to buy their services they will not be able to succeed in the field. However, if regulation did not exist there would be many more people, in probably every field, who could enter and successfully compete by providing acceptable services.

For instance, without licensing laws for doctors, there are many nurses, physicians assistants, and paramedics who could be competent doctors. They may not be the doctors with the greatest skills, but they could easily deal with basic medical cases and make referrals to more talented doctors in difficult cases. The existence of a greater number of doctors would help make healthcare much more affordable, all while maintaining an adequate level of quality--a level of quality that healthcare users would help to determine through their own voluntary choices concerning which doctors to see.... Some might think that, without regulation, people will be able to easily enter an industry by committing an act of fraud (such as by someone pretending to be a doctor). However, this is not true. Fraud...is an indirect form of the initiation of physical force--a violation of individual rights--and would be illegal under capitalism. (pp. 102-104)


- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 1/14, 1:49pm)


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Monday, January 16, 2006 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I have to apologize.  The Bidinotto excepts that I quoted were corrupted by a coloquy I was having with an anarchist.  It is unfortunately too late to edit the post.

The arguments you are objecting to are his view.  You are of course correct.  Sorry for the confusion and the effort you wasted in pursuing them. 


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Monday, January 16, 2006 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, you mentioned that if a proper form of government existed, an alterntative defense agency would by definition be immoral (or something to that effect).  I'm not sure that I agree with this.  For example, what if the other agency had the same respect for individual rights as this imaginary government, yet was differentiated only in the respect that it was cheaper and more efficient by virture of being private?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 - 11:40pmSanction this postReply
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Pete wrote,
Bill, you mentioned that if a proper form of government existed, an alternative defense agency would by definition be immoral (or something to that effect).
No, I was saying that an alternative legal system with a different set of laws could not be tolerated by the existing government, if only because by the government's standards, those laws would then constitute the initiation of force.
... what if the other agency had the same respect for individual rights as this imaginary government, yet was differentiated only in the respect that it was cheaper and more efficient by virtue of being private?
You're assuming that the other agency would be bound by the government's laws and procedural guidelines, right? In that case, it would simply be an enforcement arm of the government, not a competitor to it. There is nothing theoretically wrong with a private agency offering police services. It might, in fact, be preferable to have private police, provided once again that they adhered to the government's guidelines for law enforcement agencies. The quality of the service would undoubtedly improve. In his book Cutting Back City Hall, Robert W. Poole, Jr. chronicles numerous examples of private police services already in operation in our major cities. One example is worth noting:

Stretched across [San Francisco's] northern section are 62 private police beats, "owned" by private police officers who are paid by their customers--the businesses, apartment owners, and homeowners. The "Patrol Specials," as the officers are called, receive a complete police academy training, carry guns, and have full arrest powers. But they are fully private entrepreneurs who receive not a penny of tax money. Instead, once a Special "purchases" a beat (from its previous "owner")--generally for ten times its monthly revenue--it is up to him to negotiate contracts with as many of the beat's property owners as wish to purchase his services. Depending on what is provided, the fees can range from $10 to $1,000 per month.

Some customers, such as the Japan Trade Center, want and pay for 24-hour-a-day foot patrol. Others want only periodic drive-by checks. Special Roger Levit charges homeowners from $10 to $20 a month to watch a house while the occupants are on vacation--rotating house lights, taking in newspapers and mail, etc. For another $30 his men will make regular on-foot backyard checks. Small retail stores may pay as little as $35 a month, while a large apartment house wanting three to six nightly inspections may pay $450.

The San Francisco system thus provides a vast diversity of police services, tailored to the needs of the individual customers who pay for what they want. As in most big cities, the city's own police force has its hands full trying to apprehend serious criminals. The taxpayers can neither afford to provide the specialized patrol services, nor should they have to. The user-pays principle is far more equitable. And in San Francisco it has stood the test of time. The city's private beats date back to the city's beginnings in the 1850s, and were formalized in its 1899 charter.


- Bill

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 7:35amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

If you enjoy combating this ignorance you should try libertyforum.org.  Tackle Peter Carswell and Richard A Garner.

ps- Can't believe that Rick Passato who champions this issue and should be well informed is still using Roy Childs as an argument.  Childs recanted that letter admitting he was incorrect.  Unfortunately he did not tell us why he reached that conclusion before his death.

(Edited by Robert Davison on 1/17, 7:42am)


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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:38amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Thanks for the referral! Childs argument is the principal reason why libertarian anarchists still regard government as incompatible with freedom--that and David Friedman's "anarcho-capitalism" as presented in his book The Machinery of Freedom. But, as I demonstrated, it is anarchism itself that is incompatible with liberty, and interestingly, Friedman concedes that his system is non-libertarian, yet he continues to call it "anarcho-capitalism." One wonders what his definition of "capitalism" is! Coercion for fun and profit?

What is particularly unfortunate is that anarchism has gained such a wide following among libertarians that it has infected (there is no other word for it) the libertarian movement and virtually destroyed any chance of its ever becoming politically viable. As Peikoff notes, there are two ways to destroy an idea: attack it outright and defend it badly. Anarchists have taken the second route. With "libertarian" friends like them, who needs enemies?!

What is encouraging about Objectivism is that it is the kind of well-grounded and intellectually sophisticated philosophy that should, with time, attract the best and brightest minds to its cause. Much of the philosophical and political theorizing that one sees in the libertarian movement today is naive and amateurish--the equivalent of the faith-based defenses of ethics and morality among the religious right. But if we can maintain a measure of intellectual freedom in this country, Objectivism or something very close to it should become the accepted way of thinking among the intellectuals and eventually among the general populace. When that happens, we will truly have witnessed a second renaissance.

- Bill

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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Just for clarification: I recognized none of my own arguments in the material quoted earlier in this thread.

I think I've probably argued in favor of limited government and against anarchism at greater length (and I hope with greater persuasive force) than any other Objectivist. Anyone wishing to acquaint himself with my views on this topic is invited to go to my blog's Table of Contents, scroll down to the subheading on "Anarchism Vs. Limited Government," and read the articles linked there -- ideally, starting with those at the bottom of that section (the earliest articles) and going sequentially to those at the top (the most recent posts).


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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 8:08amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Coercion for fun and profit?
LMAO

What is encouraging about Objectivism is that it is the kind of well-grounded and intellectually sophisticated philosophy that should, with time, attract the best and brightest minds to its cause.

I hold a pessimism not shared by most Os that there are not enough 'bright' minds to make a difference; that the average man can not handle the epistemology.

But if we can maintain a measure of intellectual freedom in this country, Objectivism or something very close to it should become the accepted way of thinking among the intellectuals and eventually among the general populace. When that happens, we will truly have witnessed a second renaissance.

I fear that conservativism is a close as we will get (see above) and then there is is the question of tenure.

But I love your spirit and hope I am wrong and you are correct.



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Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 7:44amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Roy Childs did not recant his argument. I suggest you read Roy Childs on anarchism by Ronald N. Neff for a better understanding of the problems with Roy's enigmatic statements.

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Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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Very interesting, Rick - thank you.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Bill, I sanctioned both of your first two posts in this topic.  Even though I disagree with your premise (or conclusion?) about the nature of government, I do appreciate the citations. I printed them for one of my law enforcement 3-rings and I will follow up on finding the Poole book. 
 
Establishing truth requires a unity of theory and fact.  Invalidating an argument means showing its internal inconsistencies and its failure to conform to (or explain) known facts. 
 
Ayn Rand said that love is exception-making and Objectivists who are in love with government make a lot of exceptions for it. 
 
   


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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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Michael, you quote AR that "love is exception-making" and use that quotation to knock supporters of limited government (which she emphatically supported) in defense of anarchism (which she emphatically opposed)? Please...don't stomp on her grave like that.

Post 12

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 12:41amSanction this postReply
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Michael, thanks for the sanction. Poole's book is excellent; he documents private alternatives to virtually every government function - from private roads to private police to private fire departments to private arbitration agencies. Poole doesn't just operate in the realm of theory; he presents real-life examples of this sort of thing already taking place before our very eyes.

Another book that you might find worth checking out is The Voluntary City by David T. Beito, Peter Gordon, and Alexander Tabarrok (with a forward by noted historial Paul Johnson). This book is more recent than Poole's and is a compilation of many excellent articles on the privitization of municipal public services.

- Bill

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Monday, March 20, 2006 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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Poole doesn't just operate in the realm of theory; he presents real-life examples of this sort of thing already taking place before our very eyes.
In these discussions, I have also cited realworld examples.  "What if... what if... what if..." has already been dealt with for a profit.  I find it even more interesting that the classic "what if" has never been documented. 

"What if the guards of two competing companies are called by clients in conflict..."

In 100 years plus, Burns, Pinkerton, Wells-Fargo, Brinks,... apparently, none of them has ever opened fire on the other.  After all, we Objectivists do not find odd that after Opel canceled a contract on Ford and switched to GM, a world war did not break out.  Heck, GM and Ford have been neighbors for 100 years without firing a shot -- which is more than can be said for most of Europe.

For all of that -- and despite my personal relationship with the Tannehills -- I do agree that some anarchists fall into a "would/should/could" fallacy.  That the competing agencies in conflict could arbitrate because they would find it in their self-interest does not mean that they will.   They do indeed!  The fact remains that as stated in The Market for Liberty the proposed solution rests on a grammatical difficulty.


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Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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I still think you need a monopoly legal system with a single set of laws in order to preclude the kind of problems that arise from two different legal systems attempting to enforce different sets of laws within the same geographical area. But we've been over this before, so no need to retread old ground. I've made my arguments on behalf of this concept, and I stand by them. Of course, I don't think that my concept of a government is incompatible with what Poole is saying, because the private police agencies are bound by a single set of laws. They cannot become vigilante agencies of force, as that would be "illegal," in which case, they would be subject to punitive action in the same way that renegade police officers are today.

- Bill

[Edited for syntax]
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 3/21, 12:08pm)


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Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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I still think you need a monopoly legal system with a single set of laws in order to preclude the kind of problems that arise from two different legal systems attempting to enforce different sets of laws within the same geographical area.

Well, yes, that is why some of us look forward to a (constitutionally limited) world government.  I think that Ayn Rand agreed with that idea during a Q&A.  It might be said that conflict comes from have different expectations; and conflict is resolved when those differences are resolved. 
 
That said, no one really lives in a monochromatic society with "one set of laws."  Guilds and cities and churches had parallel structures.  I have mentioned a nice example from my childhood of the professional football player Frank Ryan who had a Ph.D. in mathematics.  He had two professions governed by two totally different -- but very enforceable -- sets of rules.  So, we may not need "a single set of laws... within the same geographic area."
 
On the hand, here in the USA, we have examples of "competing laws" for the same crime within a single geographic area.  In our common language, we say "don't make a federal case out of it." For crimes such as bank robbery, you can be tried at the state or federal level.  The police "compete" and the prosecutors "negotiate" (with the attorney of the accused) and a "deal" is reached, without the FBI opening fire on the locals.  What avoids that is that the law enforcement personnel have compatible goals.
 
While it did not begin a new thread, the post I placed about the 1893 Hague Convention on Private International Law also points to over 100 years "competing laws" without bloodshed in the real world of today.  Different countries have different laws -- by definition.  Yet, people have interest that cross those boundaries.  How do we handle inheritances?  How are children adopted?  How do we interpret contracts?  It is one thing for you to buy a Toyota Prius -- it is another matter entirely for Toyoda Machine Tool's "Toyota" division to buy steel in China, tires in Japan, transmissions in Holland, and on and on and then assemble the cars in the USA for sale here and elsewhere around the world.  

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 3/25, 11:53am)


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