About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 80

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I get the idea that uncertainty is what it is that makes certainty logically possible in the first place (ie. it's only because we CAN be uncertain about some things -- that certainty "matters" about some matters).
Yes! ie. it's clear that the ocean exists (certainty), but not how far it extends, or what we'll find at the end of it.

Disconnected uncertainty just doesn't make sense to me, let alone have any practical purpose.


Post 81

Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 9:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Starting points must be certain -- we have to "know" (not merely "believe") what it takes to light a room; before we can discover how to light it with the same or greater lumens, at the same or better cost. It has to be known (not merely believed) what it costs to light a room, before we can know if we have made the kind of progress that we have.

Scientific method starts wth a well defined problem and then collects relevant data, doesn't it? An affirmative case for debate begins with a proposal, perhaps that more efficient and less expensive ways to light a room are needed. Then comes a history of the status quo, what it takes now to light a room. This is followed by supported contentions and a plan which meets the need identifed in the proposal. Finally, a summary lists the advantages of accepting the plan and adopting the proposal. My post on Women in Combat is an example of such an affirmative case.  (Nobody is takng the negative yet.)

Some starting points are not certain. They are merely starting points. It doesn't really matter where we take the first step of a 500 mile journey, as long as we don't take it after the 2nd step. And liniar movements are being experimented with in literature. Not all stories are chronological. Some use flash-back and all sorts of novel ways of organzing.

Some people here like the traditional approach to essay writing; into, body, and conclusion. Others like stream of consciousness, rambling, covering points along the way. Many works in philosophy are not well organized, but there are important points made. Nietzsche wrote much of his stuff in aphorisms, loosely connected, deliberately trying to be unsystematic.

Much poetry is very ambgious. Not very clear and certain, yet we think it enlightens us somehow.

Existentialists start with themselves. They exist first. Then, they work on their natures. They don't think of it as being born into a pre-existing mold on a course they have to discover. "It is existence prior to essence." The Objectivist thinks man's essence is already there, as the oak tree is in the acorn. "It is essence prior to existence." I think this conflicts with freedom, even if the Objectivist litereature doesn't.

NickOtani'sNeo-Objectivism holds that there can be both existentialism and essentialism. There is a humaness which exists prior to man, a human nature into which man is born, and there are natural laws which exist prior to man, like gravity exists even when nothing falls. However, there is also room within those fixed and universal parameters for freedom, for a human to participate in working on his or her own nature. 

Chew on that or awhile. I've got to go talk to William.

bis bald,

Nick


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 82

Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nick,

=======================
Some starting points are not certain. They are merely starting points. It doesn't really matter where we take the first step of a 500 mile journey, as long as we don't take it after the 2nd step.
=======================

But do you 'definitely' HAVE to take the first step -- in order to get to the second? Yes, you do. Because that is what reality is like. There is finality and certitude in THAT (to a mind capable of a sufficient understanding of what it means to be taking a "second step").



=======================
Existentialists start with themselves. They exist first. Then, they work on their natures. They don't think of it as being born into a pre-existing mold on a course they have to discover. "It is existence prior to essence." The Objectivist thinks man's essence is already there, as the oak tree is in the acorn. "It is essence prior to existence."
=======================

There is no such thing as an "existence prior to essence" or an "essence prior to existence." And there is a very basic Objectivist tenet that precludes the possibility of there ever being such things: Existence IS Identity.

Choke that one down.

Ed
[we're born with a certain and definite capacity for change -- we're not born with MORE (or less) than this certain and definite capacity]


Post 83

Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
=======================
Existentialists start with themselves. They exist first. Then, they work on their natures. They don't think of it as being born into a pre-existing mold on a course they have to discover. "It is existence prior to essence." The Objectivist thinks man's essence is already there, as the oak tree is in the acorn. "It is essence prior to existence."
=======================

There is no such thing as an "existence prior to essence" or an "essence prior to existence." And there is a very basic Objectivist tenet that precludes the possibility of there ever being such things: Existence IS Identity.
Nope, the "IS" you capitalize is too static. It doesn't allow that some things which exist are still becoming, finding or creating their identities. However, in Objectivist talk, identity is essence, or nature. Everything that exists has a specific nature. That's the same as essentialism, essence prior to existence. There is such a thing as human nature which exists objectively, prior to and independent of humans.

bis bald,

Nick


Post 84

Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, is this  basically Heraclitian, or something else?

Nope, the "IS" you capitalize is too static. It doesn't allow that some things which exist are still becoming, finding or creating their identities.
Or is it pure Hegelian Flux stuff?


Post 85

Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Actually, it is Sartre. Whitehead is also into process, and it is much like the samsara in Hinduism and Buddhism.

bis bald,

Nick


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 86

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 7:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa,

Ed, is this  basically Heraclitian, or something else? ...

Or is it pure Hegelian Flux stuff?
Nick seems to jostle in and around those 2 worldviews.

Sometimes Nick, with Heraclites, seems to accept the absurd notion that "change" is the only actuality (not incorporating the important Aristotelean distinction that, for there to be any change in the first place -- there need be something to exist as itself, something that "undergoes" the change). Change is not a logical possibility, without any entity capable of undergoing it.

Sometimes Nick, with Hegel, talks about a process of becoming of which the mind can be in complete, though ineffable, idealistic control. For Hegel (and Nick, too), there was a sort of pan-logic to human existence. Your "life-job" is to align your nature with the ultimate absolutism (Hegel's Spirit). Your personal struggles then, would not be because your acts are mis-aligned with YOUR nature (only the ultimate absolutism has actuality).

This is what Nick is saying -- whether he wishes to, or not ...

Humans aren't just self-made souls, they're self-made humans. You don't become human by being born with a rational faculty, you become human by engaging in the type of behavior that has been socially-associated with the human type of being. For Nick, some key facts about the shared features of all humans are under-appreciated -- in order to salvage a subjectivist, Nietzschean, 'beyond good and evil" existentialism.

In truth, each and every one of us was born with a certain and definite capacity for change (ie. an essence, if you will). It's part of -- no, let me re-phrase that -- it IS our nature.

Ed


Post 87

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks, Ed.

Post 88

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed is misrepresenting me, Teresa. I am in no way a Hegelian. I am too much of an individualist and an egoist. For Hegel, as for Marx, the dialectic is primary. The individual is just a cog in the larger system. 

I do have some Heraclitus in me, encapsulated within Aristotelian and Randian essentialsm. I don't mind being compared to Nietzsche and existentialists like Sartre.

Can't you read my posts and decide for yourself, Teresa?

I am a NickOtani'sNeo-Objectivist.

bis bald,

Nick


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 89

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
No prob, Teresa.


Nick,

=====================
I am in no way a Hegelian.
=====================

Are you saying that calling you a Hegelian is an "antithesis" to that which you either are being, or are in the process of "becoming?"



=====================
I do have some Heraclitus in me ...
=====================

Well, just give it time, Nick -- and that'll "change."



=====================
I don't mind being compared to Nietzsche ...
=====================

Now Nick, you're beginning to sound like an insane narcissiso-subjectivist. You know? The kind of guy who would even say something like (caps for italics) ...

=================
This demand follows from an insight which I was the first to formulate: that THERE ARE ALTOGETHER NO MORAL FACTS.
=================



=====================
... and existentialists like Sartre.
=====================

C'mon, not JPS!!! I mean, JPS is the kind of guy that would say things like ...

=====================
Consciousness ... is total emptiness (since the entire world is outside it) ...
=====================

And his thinking error was to fail to integrate the fact that Consciousness IS Identification (of the world). A consciousness is not a logical possibility, without a world of which to be conscious.

Friedrich and Jean-Paul -- are a couple of fellows that didn't quite think straight. They may have been prolific ... but so are cockroaches, and Eurasian milfoil.

Ed







Post 90

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 10:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nietzsche and Sartre are not perfect in every way, but they had ideas worthy of contemplation. You, Ed, seem too quick to judge and dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you entirely.

And his thinking error was to fail to integrate the fact that Consciousness IS Identification (of the world). A consciousness is not a logical possibility, without a world of which to be conscious.

And you fail to integrate the fact that your statement above sets up an operational dualism between consciousness and the world, and it does not recognze the differences between the objects, being in itself, and subjects, being for itself. Therefore, it cannot account for freedom other than by edict, by saying it is self-evident. You might as well base your views on faith, Ed.

bis bald,

Nick


Post 91

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 12:47amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
=====================
I am in no way a Hegelian.
=====================

Are you saying that calling you a Hegelian is an "antithesis" to that which you either are being, or are in the process of "becoming?"

=====================
I do have some Heraclitus in me ...
=====================

Well, just give it time, Nick -- and that'll "change."


Funny stuff! What is this, the philosophical three stooges? :-]

Post 92

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 4:09amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
YUK YUK YUK  :-)

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 93

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Can't you read my posts and decide for yourself, Teresa?
Of course, Nick. And you're exceptionally skilled at applying idea's I've not studied in many years. Thus, I require an able, and trustworthy interpreter who can explain in terms I understand, point out the flaws and fundamentals, etc.

I am a NickOtani'sNeo-Objectivist.
I'm still waiting for the Objectivist part.  You've defended everything classic Objectivism rejects.

"Neo" implies something new built into, or onto, the foundation, but it's not just any 'ol addition to the foundation. It's got to work with the fundamentals, otherwise, it's a superficial rejection of the foundation. 


 


Post 94

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yeah, I don't get the "Objectivist" part either. Nor the "Neo" part; how can you have the prefix, if you don't have the suffix?

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 8/15, 9:39am)


Post 95

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Maybe he's a 'neo-suffi'? ;-)
(Edited by robert malcom on 8/15, 9:50am)


Post 96

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Listen, I could just tell everyone straight out what my Objectivism is, but I told you before. You missed it. Go back over my initial postings on this board, perhaps visit my board, and see if you can find where I present my views. See if you can find the Objectivism part of my philosophy. It will mean more to you if you do that way. 

bis bald,

Nick


Post 97

Monday, August 21, 2006 - 6:22amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Just as I thought. You asked me a question, but you weren't really interested enough in the answer to do a little research. 

Nick


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4


User ID Password or create a free account.