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Sunday, July 9, 2006 - 9:32pmSanction this postReply
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 In 1640, Rene Descarte sat at his desk and meditated on what, if anything, he could be certain. He could doubt his perception and much of his reasoning, but he could not doubt that he was doubting. To even wonder about his existence, he thought to himself, he had to exist. "I think, therefore I am." he said.

Descarte admitted that the rest of his conclusions were not as solid as the apparently logical proof for his existence. He said that if he could be certain of his existence, then there must be a God. This God, he decided, would not fool him about the existence of bodies. He existed as a thinking thing, a mind or soul, and he apparently had a material thing called a body.

He had a problem with the relationship between the soul and the body. The body is solid, tangible. It takes up space and has a location. Does the soul have these same characteristics? If not, how does the soul interact with the body? If the soul is not a physical thing, then how does it cause the body to move?

Benedict Spinoza, 1632-1677, tried to solve the soul-body problem by saying they are both the same. Like Thales, he thought God is in everything. Mind and matter are attributes of the same substance. When one is affected, the other is also.

Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, 1644-1716, tried to solve the soul-body problem in another way. He said innumerable atom-like beings, called Monads, are active in substances and give the appearance of interaction. The Monads of the mind and the Monads of the body, each acting according to their prescribed nature, function in unison to give the outward appearance of interaction.

John Locke, 1632-1704, contended that the human mind is, at birth, a blank tablet which, through the perception of sensations, develops ideas. This contrasted with Descarte who thought some knowledge was inate.

Locke did not know, however, if there was anything more to substance than those qualities which are experienced. What is a red ball, for example, other than its shape, color, weight, and texture? He claimed anything more is unknowable.

George Berkeley, 1685-1753, went even further than Locke. He said any qualities which cannot be experienced, do not exist. Mental images, he said, are all we have, and independent matter, therefore does not exist. This would evolve into a position known as Solipism, the belief of an individual that he or she alone exists while everything else is in his or her imagination, but Berkeley decided we are all part of the mental experience of God.

David Hume, 1711-1776, went even further than Berkeley. He attacked all knowledge by saying we are directly aware of perceptions only. We cannot perceive God, mind, laws of science, or laws of causation. Therefore, all these things cannot be proven to exist.

So much for the soul-body problem.

Immanuel Kant, 1724-1804, seems to have saved science and religion from Hume's attack and brought together two divergent views about the source of knowledge. Rationalism is, very generally, the view that a primary source of knowledge is reasoning, like when Descarte searched his mind for knowledge unattached to experience. Empiricism focuses on knowledge from experience, on sensations and perceptions. Kant said both are needed. They work together. Experience is like the raw material which becomes finished when processed through the machinery of reason. A rational understanding of our sensations is knowledge.

What Kant did seems comparable to what Plato did when he reconciled the theories of Heraclitus and Parmenides. Kant's transcendental realities, in fact, resemble the ideal forms of Plato's construction.

This new idealism influenced another German philosopher, Friedrich Hegel, 1770-1831, to come up with a process for arriving at truth. It combines "thesis" with "antithesis" to form "synthesis."

Hegel inspired Karl Marx in the construction of his Dialectical Materialism, but he aslo provoked several people, like Friedrich Nietzsche and Soren Kierkegaard, to rebel against his systematic approach. Heideggar and Sartre soon followed.

Although there are many differences among the philosophers who rebelled against Hegel, other than the analytical philosophers, they share certain things in common which has classified them, in textbooks, as Existentialists. All Existentialists share the view that reality is not as rational as Hegel and Kant and Leibniz believe. There are no absolutes, they say, but this is okay because it means we can be free and responsible.

The systematic philosophies are, say the Existentialists, like the beautiful homes one observes in magazines. They are nice to look at, but nobody can actually live in them. It seems the foundations of some intricate structures crumble when people need them most. When we meet someone in the street, all the fancy furnishings of systematic philosophies are of little value. We must deal with life.

It is left to Nick Otani to attempt the impossible and combine elements of existentialism with a systematic philosophy called objectivism.


Post 1

Sunday, July 9, 2006 - 10:53pmSanction this postReply
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Two problems with the claims by previous philosophers.

First, they assert the mind must be an entity onto itself. This is an error if one considers all the research on how many brain dead individuals clearly are not thinking. Or seen a person in a state where the brain trama has left them in a vegetative state. Often it is the case, that many philosophers fail to see the scope of that situation. In that view, science has refuted any attempt to make the mind an entity onto itself. It is a property to an entity in that context.

Second, they assert that how the mind develops is very much different from how physical objects develop, being that it has no weight, mass, or any matter to its composition. Yet, in computer science and physics, it's been known that all information in any system carries a very small amount of energy, and mass due to having some measure of energy. Because of this, information that a brain accrues, the pathways the neurons create, by the same token have mass and energy. Thus are measurable. As to their content or meaning, it is still unknown to scientists, but the fact we can observe their formation when a subject is exposed to new perceptual data, shows that the neurons are the foundation to which one could call a mind, being it carries all the needed data in a form yet not fully understood.

Just on that note alone, I see no mind/body problem at all. I see a lot of hot air over an issue that is easy to handle without need to plead to a special entity status for the mind. The mind in my view is categorically the action of our brain, it is essentially 'wetware.' A pliable formation of our composition that changes with its own self-directives [free will] to any give situation or new data or stimulus. It needs not any extra physics, or ideal realm to operate upon just as my PC needs not the same things for it to contain all the data within it.

In the end, you are your body and you best love it. :)

-- Bridget

Post 2

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 12:58amSanction this postReply
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Bridget, where is the "self"? If what we think of as the the mind is the electrical and chemical actvty in the neurons in the brain, as it responds to stimuli, and if it melts down like electrical connections in an electrical device that burns out, is there an executive center which makes decisions for the body, like the President of the U.S. is the cheif executive of our country? He may not be doing everything, but he represents us to other countries in the world. So, our "self" takes responsibility for what the action in our neurons makes us do. Dennett thinks there is such a thing in each of our bodies, and nobody is more of a materialist than he.  

In our language, we think of the self as the subject. If there is thinking going on, there must be a thinker, just as there is a runner if there is running and a walker if there is walking. If there is actvity in the neurons, is there something there evaluating and integrating the activity and making decisions on what the body is going to do? Or, is this done automatically, as the genetic unfolding responds to the external stmuli in the mechanstic model. Is there an operator for the computor which is our body? Or, are we just all body? Is the subject just an artificial construction of our language?

The Buddhists might believe this, that the self doesn't really exist. We are all just part of nature, part of reality, part of the whole. This certainly conflicts with Rand's egoism and individualsm and Sartre's as well. 

I think our language makes us unique among animals. We volitionally manipulate symbols in a structured form. It allows us to think conceptually, with words and sentences. Animals make meaningful sounds but no structure is detected. Experiments with apes using sign language is still inconclusive, so human-like language seems to make humans unique, different in kind and not just degree, from other animals. And, Chomsky has a creativty principle which demonstrates how humans can make meaningful sentences which have never been made or experienced before. We have substitution frames in our language into which we can place words and form meaningful patterns which have never before been formed. This is the key to free will. It allows us to invent things which bring about industrial revolutions and effect our lifestyles in ways that other animals don't do. They are bound by their natures, like objects, but we humans are the subjects, the animals who create and use reason, if we choose to do so.

So,  I do have a dualism. It is the subject-object dualism, the for-itself and the in-itself. I am distinct from nature, but I am also bound up in it. I discover and create.I exist and participate in working on my essence and makng reality, as reality is what I make it, but I also do so within objective parameters which are uniersal and fixed, prior to me.

bis bald,

Nick  

(Edited by Mr. Nicholas Neal Otani on 7/10, 1:04am)


Post 3

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 6:34amSanction this postReply
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(Nick)Bridget, where is the "self"?

(Me) Self references both tangible and the informational content of my makeup.

-- Bridget

Post 4

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 6:38amSanction this postReply
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Mind and matter are both forms of energy, matter being concentrated energy... but mind is a specific formulation of energy derived from a specific formulation of particular kinds of matter - consider it, in effect, as an anti-entropic balance of complexity...
(Edited by robert malcom on 7/10, 6:39am)


Post 5

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 6:41amSanction this postReply
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Robert refines the definition further. Yay! ^_^

-- Bridget just woke up so she's going to make simpler definitions... :-3

Post 6

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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I'm not sure you answered my question of where the "self" is. It's like Hume said, if the self is just a bundle of perceptions, like the railroad cars in a train; to look for a self beyond the ideas would be like looking for a train beyond the cars.

bis bald,

Nick


Post 7

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
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Self is directiveness, value judgement, and all the above. What you seem to fail to understand is that you want an entity beyond your body, there is no ghost in the machine. You are the machine for lack of a better phrase. And if that scares you at your already long lived age, then you're going to get more scared with each passing season.

There's two ways you can take the world, yourself, and the way things work. Either you can follow the belief your feelings are better than what is or you can accept what is and master it. This is why I don't buy into dualism nor into Newage-sewage oneness. Both are false choices, and both assert a level of subjectivity that cannot be in the avalanche of empirical facts that stream into the laboratories of scientists in every field every day. It is inevitable that there will be those that want the Exie way out, and then there will be those that take the better route, to the eye of the storm as it were.

That's my round about way of saying that self is what you are what you do, and what you choose. So, perception in this regard is not the only thing that is with regard to self. It is a part, but not the whole. Anything Hume has to say in my eyes is unworthy of any further inspection...



-- Bridget
(Edited by Bridget Armozel
on 7/10, 8:49pm)


Post 8

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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That's my round about way of saying that self is what you are what you do, and what you choose.

That's pretty incoherent, Bridget.


Is it what you are or what you do? And, what is it that chooses?

bis bald,

Nick


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Post 9

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 10:07pmSanction this postReply
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It's not incoherent if you recognize that it's an abstracted statement. It can reference any particular. If you want a particular, then you don't want philosophy, you want science. I have Quinten Smith's personal website on bookmark if you want an Analytic's view of this argument. ;)


But seriously, I think you're dodging the issue now since the more we refine our definitions and even give details, the more you try to evade the definitions given. Either you want an answer or you are trying to get attention. I am not here to give you attention since you have not paid me for that service. If you want to be serious, then define your terms and set your stance. Otherwise, this discussion is over.

-- Bridget doesn't have all day to talk nonsense...


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Post 10

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 10:39pmSanction this postReply
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I can see why you want to cut and run, Bridget. It's okay. I understand.

bis bald,

Nick


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Post 11

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 10:44pmSanction this postReply
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No, either define your terms and setup your argument or go away. Because guess what Nick, I've talked to folks like you from another sort of stance, the religious kind. I've debate apologists that do the very same tricks you do. I have zero tolerance for it in any form. If you want be the Exie apologist, fine be the Exie apologist, but do not diguise it or hide it. I prefer an honest dissenter to a dishonest one. Hell, most of my friends are NON-Objectivists. I got a friend that's mostly into Analytics and another that's a fan of Nietzsche, and a load of religious friends. Needless to say, none of them lie to me, nor try to pad up my feelings. You just want to see how far I'll jump through your hoops. I don't perform circus tricks. So, stop it and deliver your treatise, or shut the hell up.

-- Bridget

Post 12

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 8:35amSanction this postReply
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Since Bridget won't deal with this anymore, I'd still like to see if anyone else can locate the self. This is a legitiate phlosophical problem.

bis bald,

Nick 


Post 13

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
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This is a legitiate phlosophical problem.

Maybe for you.


Post 14

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 11:58amSanction this postReply
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Maybe for you.
Well, maybe it isn't a legitimate phlosophical problem for a relativist. Let's ask the Bigot at the Bar.

bis bald,

Nick


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Post 15

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
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Nick

===========
I'd still like to see if anyone else can locate the self. This is a legitiate phlosophical problem.
===========

There are 2 spelling errors above, 2 errors coming from one source. That one source, Nick, is yourself.

Ed

Post 16

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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Would the source of this cheap evasion be you, Ed? 

Nick


Post 17

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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Yes and no.

Ed


Post 18

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:06pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not sure you answered my question of where the "self" is. It's like Hume said, if the self is just a bundle of perceptions, like the railroad cars in a train; to look for a self beyond the ideas would be like looking for a train beyond the cars.

bis bald,

Nick



Post 19

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:20pmSanction this postReply
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Nick,

====================
It's like Hume said, if the self is just a bundle of perceptions, like the railroad cars in a train; to look for a self beyond the ideas would be like looking for a train beyond the cars.
====================

Animals are mere bundles of perceptions. Humans are something more than that (something involving conceptual awareness). Like Professor Randall said (in his book on Aristotle), only humans have explicit purposes (not even God can stake claim to THAT self-referential dynamic). The intentionality that is unique to the being: homo sapiens, just IS the self.

For all existence, one is what one repeatedly does. For humans, you are what you repeatedly intend. The 'self' is that unique intentionality.

Ed


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