About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:22amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Philosophy is filled with binaries, dualisms, like good and evil, mind and body, objective and subjective, classic and romantic, and faith and reason. Some of these are a bit artificial, just ways of trying to categorize things so that we can understand them. We do it as soon as we are born. We seperate things, as babies, into that which goes into our mouths and that which doesn't. It's a Piagetian schema. And, we know that sometimes each category can be broken down further, or two opposing categories, like thesis and anti-thesis, can be synthsized and then become another category which opposes something else. Plato, Kant, Hegel, Marx, and others had a ball building up systems with this, and Derrida enjoyed deconstructing them. Nevertheless, it does sometimes help us devise a simple conceptual model, and then we can talk and think about things about which we might not otherwise be able talk and think. Does this make sense?

Anyway, faith and reason play hugh roles in history and philosophy, and the history of philosophy. Faith represents religion and belief, and reason represents wondering, questioning, doubt, and thinking. Perhaps faith can be equated with the right-wing side of politics, the conservative side. It is the side where convictions are firm. Things don't change quickly. Tradition is important. Order is important. Reason can be equated with the left-wing side of politics, the liberal side. Things are a little more fluid. Convictions are challenged. Laws are questioned. If faith is religion, reason is philosophy.

The history of philosophy is a history of the relationship between faith and reason. (Yes, I know I am speaking generally. There is some reason in faith and some faith in reason, perhaps more than some in each. But there are still some interesting developments which arise when we see them as seperate entities.) Prior to Thales, people relied on myths, religious beliefs. Thales and his students emphasized the rational way of looking at things. Later Plato and Aristotle advanced this way of looking at things. However, the rise of Christianity and the fall of Rome, the dark ages, represented a set back for reason and a reemergence of faith, for a thousand years. Gradually, reason fought back.

Some people have tried to combine faith and reason. Agustine and Aquinas brought back Plato and Aristotle but only within the parameters of their Christian dogmas. Faith, for them, was still primary, but they kept reason alive. With reason, they made faith stronger and more appealing to intellectuals. Reason was the hand-maiden for religion, for faith. However, while Aquinas said that he had to believe to understand, Abelard said that he had to understand to believe. Faith and reason were being combined in different ways. And, in the Age of Enlightenmenmt, reason often became an adversary to faith.

I don't know to what extent I combine faith and reason in NickOtani'sNeo-Objectivism. I try to justify everything with reason, but I also know that there are axioms upon which my reason rests. And, some people will say that free-will, natural rights, and essentialism cannot be justified entirely with reason. And, there are those who have said that all rational arguments are merely sophisticated pronouncements of faith. (I refered to this, myself, in my writng on Perception, Logic, and Language.) However, there are certain fixed things in my philosophy which could be equated with the right-wing side of this model. I do say that we are free within generalizable parameters. The Objectivism of my Neo-Objectivism, is fixed and universal, but the Existentialism, the Neo part of my philosophy, is fluid and free. It is the left-wing side of my philosophy.

Anyway, before I get side tracked again. Let me ask a question: How do you think reason and faith should be related? Do we need both? What happens if there is too much of one or the other?

bis bald,

Nick


Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nick,

Faith is a method of learning. This is where you accept ideas as true arbitrarily-- lack of evidence or even contrary evidence. If you would like to have more faith, a tool like magic mushrooms may be of use. Or you can join a cult I mean church.

The scientific method is a method of learning. This is where you make predictions, and compare your predictions to observations, and have higher confidence that an idea is true as supporting evidence confirms the idea.

Reason is a method of learning. This is where you use induction and deduction on a knowledge base to discover new relationships. One uses reason for things like "What time do I need to start getting ready for work, given that I need to be at work by 9:00 am and I have to do X, Y, Z, etc, which take A, B, C, etc minutes to complete?"

====

Practically everyone uses the scientific method. You wouldn't be able to discover what your eye lids do or what your fingers do or... anything... without it.

Practically everyone uses Reason. You wouldn't be able to do much planning without it. You wouldn't be able to find new relationships between parts of Reality.

Many people do use faith. For myself, I can't think of anything that I have accepted as true by Faith.

I don't think these learning methods "overlap" or that one has "mixes" of the other or something like that. But surely people use these different learning methods to different degrees and on different sets of ideas.

Post 2

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
For myself, I can't think of anything that I have accepted as true by Faith.

Dean, when you get on an airplane, do you have faith that the engineers who built the plane and the pilots who fly it know their stuff about aerodynamics?

Do you have faith that there is enough order in the universe for reason to hold?

What about all those times when things happen that don't seem to make sense or have answers, do you have faith that there is a rational explanation?

Do you have faith in reason?

bis bald,

Nick

(Edited by Mr. Nicholas Neal Otani on 7/13, 12:40pm)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nick you are resorting to the equivocation fallacy with the term faith. Faith in one's skill or piloting abilities, is a different word that faith in the supernatural.

Whereas one is verifiable, someone's skill, the latter is unverifiable, the supernatural.

I think it might be best you brush up on some basic logical fallacies.

Post 4

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nick you are resorting to the equivocation fallacy with the term faith. Faith in one's skill or piloting abilities, is a different word that faith in the supernatural.

Whereas one is verifiable, someone's skill, the latter is unverifiable, the supernatural.

I think it might be best you brush up on some basic logical fallacies.





John, where did I say anything about faith in the supernatural alone? I think it might be best you brush up on some basic comprehension skills.

bis bald,

Nick

(Edited by Mr. Nicholas Neal Otani on 7/13, 1:58pm)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
My reading comprehension is fine Nick. Dean was speaking of faith in the arbitrary, or that which is contradictory, or faith in a cult, or church, i.e. the unverifiable or the unverified. I never said you mentioned the supernatural. I said you are resorting to an equivocation. You are defining faith differently than what Dean has defined it to be.

Jeez man, get a hold of yourself you're falling apart.

Post 6

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
(John)...Dean was speaking of faith in the arbitrary, or that which is contradictory, or faith in a cult, or church, i.e. the unverifiable or the unverified. I never said you mentioned the supernatural. I said you are resorting to an equivocation. You are defining faith differently than what Dean has defined it to be.

(Nick)Is reason ultimately verifiable? Is it possible to verify everything in life before we take action? Is the future 100% verifiable?

bis bald,

Nick




Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 7

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nick,

I'm not going to let you weasel your way out of this one, you said


Dean, when you get on an airplane, do you have faith that the engineers who built the plane and the pilots who fly it know their stuff about aerodynamics?


Which is verifiable.

Post 8

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Do you have faith in the verification process?

bis bald,

Nick


Post 9

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean, when you get on an airplane, do you have faith that the engineers who built the plane and the pilots who fly it know their stuff about aerodynamics?

Do you have faith that there is enough order in the universe for reason to hold?

What about all those times when things happen that don't seem to make sense or have answers, do you have faith that there is a rational explanation?

Do you have faith in reason?
No. I don't have faith in anything as far as I know.

For each instance of "faith" replace with "confidence", and my answer will be "Yes." instead.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 7/13, 7:35pm)


Post 10

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, faith has more than one definition, one being confidence, another being blind acceptance of the irrational:

faith

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs



Post 11

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, Shakespeare might see this as a rose by any other name. Hume would say that even the smallest leap of faith, as in all inductive reasoning, is still a leap of faith. One can still be wrong, and a miss is as good as a mile. (and other neat cliches)

bis bald,

Nick 


Post 12

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Faith presupposes one cannot be wrong. Reasonable assumptions presuppose that possibility of being wrong. Therefore, faith is not the predication of any philosophy that has assumptions.

So, Nick, stop shifting definitions or I'll hit you with my n00b stick. :-P

-- Bridget

Post 13

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Let's say Jack, an Objectivist, has an old car and, lately, he has been hearing squeeking noises when he uses the breakes. However, he is "confident" that the breaks are okay based on the inductive reasonng that they are still working, when he drives on flat surfaces and doesn't go very fast before he breaks. George, a Neo-Objectivist, suggests that Jack get his breaks checked, but Jack thinks Neo-Objectivists are not as rational as Objectivists, so loans his car to another friend who dies when the breaks fail on a hill and the car crashes. Was this Jack's fault?  Did he have too much "confidence"?

bis bald,

Nick 


Post 14

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 9:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
That's a faulty argument because you're presupposing one would not check the brakes to be sure. If you hear squeaking, it means the brakes are about flat pass the regulation/standard level of metal. Your logic also fails because there are clear signs of brake failure or weakness by examing the brake wheel, to which a pad presses against, for any grooves or odd line-like blemishes. Btw, how do I know this, Nick? I was a CDL licensed bus driver, so I know how disc brakes have to work, lines, pumps, and all. It's state regulation that I must know as much as the mechanic knows about a vehicle I operate. QED again Nick.

Also, in your case, suspending all critique, if that were to happen that is misguided confidence thusly, it is faith and not based on reason, nor is it inductive because inductive reasoning requires as many variables to be isolated before agreeing within a margin of error that it is so. So, if you want to pull more bulls**t out of your arse on what induction entails, be my guest, but remember, you are talking to a science major, and you will be corrected every time by your claims about induction. Also, your example is what is called NAIVE INDUCTION, or faulty induction, where variables in the line of causation have not been isolated. It's also the source of common sense, folk medicine, folk psychology, and other schema driven propositions.

Again, you lose, good day sir.

-- Bridget

Post 15

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I would also add what philosophy a person has is not the basis for any argument with regard to inductive propositions. Inductive propositions must be handled by what variables are accounted for in it. If Jack does not prove he has isolated all known, and possibly unknown, variables then his argument is suspect. If George does not ask if any variables have been isolated, then his argument is equally suspect, but on the basis that he has no reasonable doubt within bounds of a margin of error.

Thusly, the plead to differing philosophies in such arguments is pointless, induction is a universal method outside of any particular set of philosophies. Essentially, I call it the 'meta'-philosophy of all of them.

-- Bridget

Post 16

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 4:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Again, you lose, good day sir.
I see you are confident about that. Sartre would call that "mauvaise foi."

bis bald,

Nick 


Post 17

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
And I would call Sartre a Nazi sympathizer, oh wait, they did let him publish his books and he stood by and watched them brutalize millions of people, and he never considered to lift a finger to aide the french resistence. Right...

-- Bridget

Post 18

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
(Bridget)And I would call Sartre a Nazi sympathizer, oh wait, they did let him publish his books and he stood by and watched them brutalize millions of people, and he never considered to lift a finger to aide the french resistence. Right...

You reveal your ignorance, Bridget. Sartre worked for the French resistance durng WWII. He actually complained of nausa, a kind of post partum depression, when the war was over and he had no more purpose for his efforts.

bis bald,

Nick


Post 19

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 6:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Sure, right, then why was he left alone to publish during the occupation?

More than that, why can't you refute my points about induction? Hmm? Can't beat it? Dude, if you're going to post generalities about induction, please do research and please try to defend your claims at the very least, because it seems you're so stuck on the concept of belief being the foundation for induction that you won't consider otherwise. Maybe you fear that faith is all that makes the difference between the human animal and the other kind of animals? If that's your reasoning, I hate to tell you, even apes in the wild have been seen using induction to make tools to get at food. :)

As Morpheus would say, "Welcome to the Real world." ^^

-- Bridget
(Edited by Bridget Armozel
on 7/15, 6:47am)


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.