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Post 20

Monday, July 31, 2006 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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 And without men, there would be no women       
 
 
Wrong - the female is the first sex, and if needed, can engage in parthenogenesis....

(Edited by robert malcom on 7/31, 10:12am)


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Post 21

Monday, July 31, 2006 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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...a clarion call to women's liberation from domestic servitude
Pray, Bill, who will liberate women from domestic servitude? When women are encouraged to pursue "careers commensurate with their talents and abilities", who will be nursing babies, changing diapers, cooking meals, and washing dishes? Or perhaps you think all these domestic chores can somehow be done by themselves?  Or that as soon as a baby is born, he can somehow raise himself to become an independent human adult?

And I see from your profile that you don't have any child.


Post 22

Monday, July 31, 2006 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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None of this is a surprise being that society up to this point has been and continues to be a Patriarchy. I know plenty of women I'd say are better then some of the men I know.

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Post 23

Monday, July 31, 2006 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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                               Hong,


                               Jon Letendre et al?
(Edited by Sharon Romagnoli Macdonald on 7/31, 11:23am)


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Post 24

Monday, July 31, 2006 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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Ah, Sharon, yes, I consider Jon an embodiment of true equality between man and woman. In spirit only, of course.  

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 8/01, 8:42am)


Post 25

Monday, July 31, 2006 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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Hong wrote:

Pray, Bill, who will liberate women from domestic servitude? When women are encouraged to pursue "careers commensurate with their talents and abilities", who will be nursing babies, changing diapers, cooking meals, and washing dishes? Or perhaps you think all these domestic chores can somehow be done by themselves? Or that as soon as a baby is born, he can somehow raise himself to become an independent human adult?

And I see from your profile that you don't have any child.


Ouch. Wow Hong, don't you think you're getting a little too personal with Bill about this?

I don't think it has to be the case a woman ought to not choose a life of rearing children or playing a domestic role in the household, only that a woman ought to decide for herself what she wants to do with her life. And why can't a man rear children, do the dishes and cook meals while the woman pursues a career?




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Post 26

Monday, July 31, 2006 - 10:34pmSanction this postReply
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Hong wrote,
Pray, Bill, who will liberate women from domestic servitude? When women are encouraged to pursue "careers commensurate with their talents and abilities", who will be nursing babies, changing diapers, cooking meals, and washing dishes? Or perhaps you think all these domestic chores can somehow be done by themselves? Or that as soon as a baby is born, he can somehow raise himself to become an independent human adult?
If a woman chooses a career that is incompatible with motherhood, then if she is rational, she won't have any children that need raising. Of course, she can choose to become a mother and a raise a family, if she wishes, which is a career in itself if done properly, and then when her children reach an age when they can be relatively self-sufficient, choose a career outside the home. My own mother did that, and this was back in the '40's, long before women's lib.

Nothing in what I wrote suggests that there is anything wrong with a woman's assuming the role of motherhood, if that is what she desires. The point I was making is that women shouldn't be confined to that role by the assumption that that's all they are fit to do, a view that is common in the Middle East, and used to be common in this country.
And I see from your profile that you don't have any child.
Gosh, maybe I need to run out and have one, just so I can speak authoritatively on this subject! Hong, are you serious?? What does that have to with the price of tea in China?

- Bill


Post 27

Monday, July 31, 2006 - 11:51pmSanction this postReply
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I am “an embedment,” Hong?
Shouldn’t there be a body in that bed,
as in “embodiment?” Or do I read you wrong?

Or do I?

Hold it, Hong
this is wrong—both of us are married.

My mistress says that if I were strong
I wouldn’t even know your name.
The lib’ers can have their cubicles. I have it made.


Post 28

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 7:24amSanction this postReply
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Hey Hong/Sharon/All,

Months ago I wrote an article about spanking. I haven’t polished it, don’t intend to, and do not want it published here.

I show how to build autonomy and independence in young children without any spanking, which I show to be counter-productive to the goal—all tied together with constant analogizing to one of my hobbies: the art of training pointing gun dogs.


Whoever wants to read it, send me an RoRMail with your email address and I will send you the Word file.


Post 29

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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...don't you think you're getting a little too personal with Bill about this?
Nope. I just think that we should get out of abstraction, and get real.



Post 30

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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Hey Jon,
What dirty thoughts you have! But of course it should be a body and not a bed - it should have been "embodiment"!!! My mastery of English language is really shameful. And I don't even understand what the rest of your message means.

BTW, send me your article on spanking. My email is in my profile.



Post 31

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
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If a woman chooses a career that is incompatible with motherhood, then if she is rational, she won't have any children that need raising.
Gosh, Bill, the way you so lightly brush off the woman's choice of motherhood indicates to me that you haven't got slightest idea of the problems that are facing today's women every day. I will not discuss these issues with you any further.


Post 32

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 10:04amSanction this postReply
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Hong wrote,

Pray, Bill, who will liberate women from domestic servitude? When women are encouraged to pursue "careers commensurate with their talents and abilities", who will be nursing babies, changing diapers, cooking meals, and washing dishes? Or perhaps you think all these domestic chores can somehow be done by themselves? Or that as soon as a baby is born, he can somehow raise himself to become an independent human adult?

Hong, you have got to be joking. In your world, childcare must be restricted to the role of a female.

Yours is an old, outdated mindset. Sexist ideas like that are out just like their Christian "conservatives" who enforce those kind of gender roles.

Post 33

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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“What dirty thoughts you have!”
Yes.

Your English is very good, certainly better than my second language…I don’t have one!

The meaning of the rest of my poem will be clear if you substitute Nathaniel for me, Patrecia for you and Rand for “my mistress.” (Hey, it was late and I wrote it in sixty seconds.)

The last line means that if women’s liberationists want to work in the business world, then they can have it—I neither need nor want it (anymore.) My wife wants and does that. I am so in love with my arrangement that I almost feel like I am getting away with something! (“I have it made.”)

Oh, well. Not all women can have the best of both worlds: A business career—and me. But we could sit our spouses down and make a proposal, Hong. Come on, Hong, why not? All they can do is say no!


Post 34

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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This should be a lesson to you, Nick. Your pass at Jenna was so inept!

Note that Hong has asked me for my article on SPANKING.


Post 35

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Jon,
I understood your last line and...bravo. Thanks for the explanation of the rest. Yes, it is now clear.

"Not all women can have the best of both worlds: A business career—and me."
Very true.

"But we could sit our spouses down and ...All they can do is say no!"
Ahem, uh, do we have to tell them? ;-^



Post 36

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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This should be a lesson to you, Nick. Your pass at Jenna was so inept!

Note that Hong has asked me for my article on SPANKING.
Gottja! I'll try to be more smooth next time.

bis bald,

Nick


Post 37

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 12:38pmSanction this postReply
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“I understood your last line and...bravo.”

Well, not really “bravo.” That makes it sound like some kind of unpleasant duty. I hear that often; “hats off to you,” etc. It doesn’t annoy me too much, though I feel the need to correct it when I hear it. I wouldn’t be doing it, four-plus years now, unless I loved it.

There’s a mental inertia for the “way things are.” People assume women are naturals at child rearing and men are not. Maybe that is true on average, I would guess it is. But that assumption fails to take account of a glaring fact I have discovered in the last four years: A significant percentage of women rearing children are bad at it and shouldn’t be doing it. I know several men at home with children and not one of them is bad at it.

Women are expected to do it, so many do even though they are bad at or don’t like it. Men are not expected to, so if they find out they don’t like it, they quit—knowing no one will put them down, as would be so if a woman quit. So, all the men rearing children love it. This might explain talk I have been hearing about studies consistently showing superior outcomes for Dad-raised children. The only specific I have heard was greater confidence in the children compared to Mom-raised. Has anyone else heard of this?

If anyone out there, woman or man, is considering having and rearing children I highly recommend a day or two a week of daycare, or some way to get that much time off from it. Both of mine started Thursday/Friday daycare starting at walking. (Think of Wednesday night as my Friday night.) It gives you some time off to pursue other things, be those work (I renovate the house constantly, Home Depot has me by the nuts,) hobbies or sleeping late. Then you can have relaxed weekends, neither of you waking up Saturday already feeling burnt out by the kids. And make no mistake—they can burn you out.


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Post 38

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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My "bravo" is not just for your taking on a very worthy job, but more for your confidence in yourself that you no longer feel the need to prove it in the business world.

"People assume women are naturals at child rearing and men are not."
Well, men don't have uterus and breasts no matter how good they are at child rearing. So, naturally the default candidate for the job is always the woman.


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Post 39

Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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Hong,

I would say that children need "mothering"  ( unconditional care and attention) for the first few months; and then when they begin exploratory behaviour, children need the logical support of  "fathering". I'm not implying that mothers and fathers need to be gender specific.

In the developing world, often children are kept with their mothers, only until they are weaned; after that they are put down and left  pretty much to their own devices. Without "fathering", their brains do not develop as logically as they might.

Our modern societies have not valued children or housework because men have never done it. Nick's charge of patriarchy is correct.

NOW that we have NEMs such as Jon, "women's work" is gaining more respect.  When men became chefs, the status and rewards for cooking increased. Now childcare is becoming more popular with men; and soon word is going to get around about how much fun it is; to watch children's minds develop.

As for a career woman who wants to become a mother?  She needs a marriage of convenience with some smart, rich, retired guy with his own pension (like Bill),  who will stay at home once the child is weaned;  and write his Guide to Raising Excruciatingly Objectivist Children, while he argues endlessly online about the validity of his data collection methods, observations and conclusions.  Checking his former premises with the diapers.

All due to the Women's Movement.  Thank you Betty Friedan.   Don't you like it when a plan comes together :?)

Sharon

(Edited by Sharon Romagnoli Macdonald on 8/01, 2:52pm)


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