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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 9:06pmSanction this postReply
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When many non-Muslim Americans think of Islam, they envision angry mobsters burning American and Israeli flags. They may think of an old and angry looking Ayatollah, sitting on a Persian rug, resisting pleas from Americans to free American hostages. They may think of women being forced, by men, to wear clothing which covers their bodies, including heads and faces, and not being allowed to go to school or vote or even walk outside the home without being accompanied by a man. Certainly, they think of terrorists flying airplanes into buildings or strapping bombs onto themselves to blow-up themselves and innocent people to protest against Americans and those America supports, like Israelis.

However, Islam is more than this. Muslims are adapting to a variety of different cultures. They are not all the simplistic stereo-types shown on the media, in headlines. Some Muslim women are going to school, voting, and even serving in political offices. Yes, some wear head scarves, as a personal choice, and some do not. Some wear western dress. Many Muslims disagree with Osama bin Laden. Many do not like the Taliban. Many are as unlike the terrorists in the headlines as any typical American.

To be a Muslim, one must accept the Five Pillars of Islam: One must make a declaration of faith, that there is no god but God [Allah] and Muhammad is the messenger of God. One must engage in prayer five times daily: at daybreak, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset, and evening. One must engage in “purification” rituals, which consists of giving to the poor. One must fast during the month of Ramadan, and one must, when one can, make a pilgrimage, or hajj, to Mecca. Sometimes referred to as a sixth pillar, although it has no official status, is the jihad, the struggle to be a good Muslim, to be virtuous, to defend Islam. Some people consider the later to be “holy war,” and extremists such as bin Laden have used it for their own purposes.

Prior to Islam, in 7th century Arabia, People roamed in tribes and families. Religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism were represented, and so were polytheistic pagan religions. The tribes would often fight among each other to take what they could and survive by being most fit.

Mecca was a commercial center, as it is now, and tribes would often stop there to trade goods, to the extent that private property and fair trade was respected.

The most powerful tribe in Mecca, in the late sixth and early seventh century, was the Quraysh. In 570 C.E., Muhammad was born into this tribe. His parents died when he was still very young, so his uncle, Abu Talib, a respected member of this tribe, raised Muhammad.

A woman named Khadija, a widow who was 15 years older than Muhammad, (He was 25, and she was 40.) approached him, married him, and hired him to manage her caravans. He became known for his honesty and contemplative nature, and he would often retreat to a hilltop to reflect on the meaning of life. On one such night, in 610 C.E., he heard a voice commanding him to recite, and, as Muhammad reported, it turned out to be the voice of the Angel Gabriel revealing to him, Muhammad, what would latter be collected and complied into the Quran, basically a correction of what had been corrupted over time from the prophesy which was in the New Testament in the Bible.

Much of Muhammad’s message was unwelcomed by tribal leaders and the business community. He denounced the status quo and called for social justice for the poor and for women and children. He was, like prophets before him, persecuted by those who had different religious views.

In 622 C.E., Muhammad and 200 of his followers emigrated to the town of Medina, approximately 250 miles away from Mecca. Here, they set up a community where the call for prayer, five times a day, went out over the roof-tops. It was the first Islamic community-state, even though non-Muslims also lived there.

There were conflicts with the Meccans. They fought wars with each other, and, ultimately, Muhammad and his force at Medina, although overcoming greater odds, won. This established Muhammad as a great leader, and his influence spread. His followers grew.

One problem, however, was that some Jews at Medina did not accept Muhammad as a Prophet. They made a deal with the Meccans to attack, in the Battle of the Ditch, from the rear. After the Medina victory, Muhammad had all the male Jews killed. He saw them as traitors and treated them in the customary way traitors in those times were treated. However, many people today, including Osama bin Laden, cite this as support for anti-Semitism.

Later, when Muhammad and his followers subdued Mecca and consolidated his rule over Arabia, he was magnanimous in his victory. He allowed pagans and non-Muslims to co-exist with Muslims, but most would freely convert to Islam. The pagan idols were destroyed.

Muhammad died in 632 C.E.. The decision about his successor split the Muslims into two camps. The majority thought the successor to Muhammad should be the most qualified person. They chose, as caliph, Abu Bakr, and they became the Sunni Muslims. The minority thought the successor should be hereditary within the Prophet’s family and that Ali, Muhammad’s first cousin, should be the leader, the imam. They became the Shiis, or “Party of Ali.”

Ali was passed over for the position of caliph three times but finally got the position after 35 years, but he was assassinated a few years later. His son, Hussein, and a small band of followers revolted but were massacred by Caliph Yazid, a Sunni. This event is reenacted each year in a passion play, and it brings tears to the eyes of grown men sympathetic to the Shiis. There is lots of emotion in the Muslim community.

For the Sunnis, Islam experienced a golden age. It spread from North Africa to South Asia. It continued to expand, as a religion and a political power, from the 8th to the 12th centuries. While Greek and European civilizations were going trough a dark ages, the Muslim world flourished. The built elaborate mosques with intricate architecture, and they made contributions to philosophy and science. Much of what we have from Greece’s golden age, the age of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle was preserved and restored by the Muslims. However, the Christian Crusades massacred Muslims in Jerusalem. When the Muslims took over, they were much less cruel. Later, when the Muslims left Spain, their wonderful buildings were either destroyed or taken over by Christians.

Today, Muslims are dealing with images of the Taliban and Osama bin Laden, of profiling, and of discriminatory laws. In France, a country with a large Muslim population, a law was passed forbidding women from wearing scarves in classrooms, but they made no such law forbidding Jews or Christians from wearing their religious trappings. Is this fair? In Spain, there are still public celebrations of the expulsion of Muslims when Ferdinand and Isabella took over. This has got to be offensive to Muslims.

Muslims have lots of challenges in getting along in cultures around the world. They are doing so. There are Muslims who are traditional, and there are Muslims who are secular, who think Islam should be personal and not political. The Five Pillars of Islam are still followed by all Muslims (They were not followed initially by the Black Muslims of Elija Muhammad, in the 60s.), but Muslims are finding ways to fit into cultures. Islam is the third largest religion in America, behind Christianity and Judaism, and it is the second largest religion in Europe. It is growing.

bis bald,

Nick


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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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Islam is a religion I have found to be more articulate and passionate than Christianity, but equally violent. The Muslims I have known have been educated and well mannered. The extreme side of the religion is definently what is portrayed in the media and the stereotype Americans have. A lot of people who associate this image with Muslims are Christians who don't know they are worshipping the same god.

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 10:54pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with that, Dustin.

bis bald,

Nick


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Monday, December 4, 2006 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
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Well said, indeed there are extremist sides to all religious faiths per se it be Roman Catholocism, to envangelical protestantism, to Orthodox Judaism and to even some sects of Hinduism.

Religious zealotry will bring the madness of men, or it can bring the divinity out of men. All in all, the perspective of which depends on person to person.



Post 4

Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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     So...the real prob is: Why aren't these 'other' unstereotypical Muslims heard from in the media?

     Media-Conspiracy?

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 2/28, 2:35pm)


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Post 5

Monday, September 17, 2012 - 4:30pmSanction this postReply
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It has been quite a few years since this thread was created, and today, we are in looking at the radical Islamic demonstrations of 9/11/12 that arose in over 33 countries and the death of our Ambassador in Libya.

I believe that investigations will reveal the degree and kinds of planning that led to these demonstrations, and that that infamous video will be discovered to have been no more than useful to the planners. It has been all the talk about that video that got me thinking.

I know that I can be perverse at times.... and maybe this is one of those times.

It occurred to me that in this day of digital communications and the internet, that a fun-loving organization could put together a large number of articles, videos, and cartoons that ridicule radical Islam and publish them everywhere in great quantities and again and again - but always anonymously. They should only be in Arabic or Persian. This deluge should leave absolutely no source to attack - no tracks back to a publisher, a person, an organization, or a country - just content that won't quit appearing.

Just for fun, every now and then some content could be made to look like Shiites ridiculing the Sunni, or wahhabi/salafi and so forth.

And this should continue until the Muslims who get upset over this kind of thing finally get over it. Consider this to be a therapeutic desensitizing of a neurotic tendency :-)

Post 6

Monday, September 17, 2012 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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I agree. Unfortunately, if Steve Wolfer is your real name you just got fingered as the brains behind the whole operation. This page is already cached somewhere, so it's too late to delete your post. If you use a head and shoulders shot on any other sites, there are free websites that can use facial-recognition software to link those sites to your picture on this one.

If you're lucky, you will get arrested for a "hate crime" and be placed safely in prison before the jihad catches up with you.

I feel bad for all the other folks on this site who also use their real names and photos. They will surely be tagged as associates of the infamous Steve Wolfer. Have you caught the interviews of various Muslim politicians decrying that movie as "an act of terrorism?" You're all terrorists now. President Obama will have you on the no fly list. You won't see the inside of a plane again until they fly you to Gitmo.

It was nice knowin' ya, Steve. Say hi to the Castros for me.

Post 7

Monday, September 17, 2012 - 8:46pmSanction this postReply
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I don't doubt that a scapegoat would be found, but the delightful part of the scheme is the overwhelming quantity and the inability to stop it. Given that, any scapegoat is as good as another as the object of finger-pointing and fatwas - keeping alive the appearance that the imams are doing something, but attempt to combat the horror proving just as futile as the one before.

Historically, the psychology of the fundamentalists is to be empowered by the harms done to them (real or imagined), but I think that empowerment reservoir that would run dry. And if so, the underlying human nature would be to look for a new, and less painful, and possibly workable way to view publications that can never be stopped or avoided.

Just a fun thought.

Post 8

Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 8:04pmSanction this postReply
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And how do you react when people make fun of Objectivism? Does Rachel Maddow seduce you?
In other words, the geo-political world in which Rand wants us to admire her heroes is not our own, or even (like that of 1984) a plausible, allegorical variant of our own, but a third-rate science fiction dystopian future, complete with imaginary technology, which, by definition, makes comparison to today's world impossible. The U.S. of Atlas Shrugged is about as real and realistic as Narnia, and capitalism is to Atlas Shrugged what Quidditch is to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone: a fictional construct, vaguely similar to something we have in real life, used for purposes of drama and entertainment. Ellis Weiner in HuffPo here


Read Atlas Punked* here

Cracked Magazine (never as good as Mad) mock of the Part 1 Trailer here

Do those influence you?



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Post 9

Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 10:39pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

What do you want me to say? Do you think I'm in the same category as an Islamic fundamentalist? Are the fundamentalist and I equivalents in your mind? That is so weird.

Do you expect me to say, "Gee, when Rachel Maddow criticizes Ayn Rand I just wish she had a consulate so I could get out my RPG and kill her Ambassador! Guess I'll just have to chant, 'Death to Maddow!' and burn her in effigy."
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I put my post in dissent because it wasn't entirely a serious proposal. I say "entirely' because there is strange psychological twist in there that says it might actually have a positive effect.
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I thought it was bizarre that you offered me web addresses where I could read ugly slurs against Rand. Why would I want to do that? It is akin to asking me if I'd like to rub my face in something that smells really foul. Thanks, but I'll pass.
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Maybe you have an idea for effecting a change in that subculture such that they'll quit killing people who say things they don't like... and quit killing complete strangers that are unrelated to those who said things they don't like.


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Saturday, September 22, 2012 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Rachel Maddow's comments are ridiculous. I accessed your links, and didn't see anything there of interest. The first one wasn't worth wading through to see what the author was saying. From what I could tell, all the second so-called "spoof" was saying is that the movie should have been updated to a more contemporary context (which I guess was part of Maddow's criticism). If so, not much there. I think most people viewing this would say, what's the point? Anyway, that was my reaction. Did I miss something?

(Edited by William Dwyer on 9/22, 8:26am)


Post 11

Saturday, September 22, 2012 - 9:36amSanction this postReply
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Steve and Bill, while I appreciate the suggestion that a campaign of ridicule against Islamic jihad might seem appropriate, I only point out that neither of you was swayed by similar attacks on your own beliefs. Steve refused even to read them.

No silver bullet, no magic formula or incantation exists to change people's minds. After a century of "scientific" studies of marketing, every new product launch is a gamble. We know how the Dow Jones 100 and Fortune 500 churn, with new firms replacing old ones, and venerable corporations closing.

The root cause is the same: individuals are ineffable. At some level, we cannot be reduced further. And no two are alike. It is an absolute scientific fact that within your own body, no two hemoglobin molecules are identical: they are composed of different kinds of atoms. Individualism is not a political philosophy, but a fact of reality. That has deep consequences.

The best you can do is to broadcast a signal and wait for its reception. Good ideas go unacknowledged, it is true. The success of Atlas Shrugged in particular and the many ideas of Ayn Rand in general cannot be reduced to a single cause. All we know is that we were attracted. And clearly, each of us differently.

We speak of a Renaissance. The first one was in Italy, of course. And if you study the period, you will follow it northward to Holland and England. But it did not flourish in Spain. And the first export, the first place outside of Italy to repeat the cultural expressions of the Renaissance, was Hungary. Obviously, it did not take root there, despite its early expression. Why not? Hard to say...

The next Renaissance will look explicable only in retrospect.

In the mean time, if you want to attract intelligent, like-minded people from the Middle East, then broadcast a message of reason and wait for a response.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 9/22, 9:39am)


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Post 12

Saturday, September 22, 2012 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Again you lump me, and this time Bill, together with Islamic jihadists as somehow intellectually/psychologically/morally comparable because we were not swayed by your links that ridiculed Ayn Rand. You don't seem to grasp that Bill and I and nearly everyone who is a member of RoR is swayed by reason and that doesn't appear to be the case with Islamic jihadists, and that Ayn Rand was an advocate of reason and individual rights, not of faith and violent attacks on infidels.

I pointed out this insulting bit of moral relativism in my previous post - but in what seems like a fit of passive aggressiveness, you've decided to repeat it.
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Then in your last sentence of that post you suggest that to attract intelligent, like-minded people from the Middle East that we should broadcast a message of reason and wait for a response. I don't want to throw water on your parade, but the problem is the Islamic jihadists and they do not fit the description of "intelligent, like-minded people."
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These are my objections to your post:
  • 1. You lump Bill and me with Islamic Jihadists in an insulting and logically unwarranted fashion.
  • You imply that people can not change (because they are different from one another all the way down to the molecular level, you say). That's an attack on both reason and choice.
  • You call for broadcasting reasonable messages and then waiting for the next Renaissance. But, if people have no choice, or can't change, that might be a long wait.
  • I was addressing Islamist jihadists, as you note in the first sentence of your last post, and they are not "intelligent, like minded people" as per the last sentence in that post.
  • When you are under violent attack where people are being killed, broadcasting reasonable messages and waiting for a response (for centuries) might seem reasonable to a pacificist or someone deep into appeasement, but it isn't practical.
  • Just as I'm capable of walking and chewing gum, I can broadcast reasonable messages to those in the Middle East that are reasonable, while ridiculing the fundamentalist crowd.


Post 13

Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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Another truly great rant from Pat Condell: "Islam, we don't care if you're offended, and we never will. Get used to it."




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Post 14

Friday, October 12, 2012 - 6:01amSanction this postReply
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And how do you react when people make fun of Objectivism? Does Rachel Maddow seduce you?

O man how the hell did I miss this one??!!!

Michael...objectivists don't put fatwas on people that draw silly cartoons of Ayn Rand...something to do with that whole respecting people's individual rights thing.

justtt sayyyinn...

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