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Thursday, December 7, 2006 - 5:14amSanction this postReply
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My ability to contribute to the forum has just been restricted to the Dissent section under pretense that "This site is for Objectivists".  Is this policy now categorical, or have I been singled out for special treatment?  Just curious.

Post 1

Thursday, December 7, 2006 - 5:58amSanction this postReply
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You are not the only person in this category. It was set up earlier this year.

Ethan


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Post 2

Thursday, December 7, 2006 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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Help, help... I'm being repressed!!
 
(sorry...)


Post 3

Thursday, December 7, 2006 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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You could always seek a court position in Sweden, Willi. In any case, some people here actually like rolling around in the mud. Check out the dissent section and you'll see. And are you implying by "pretense" that you actually are an Objectivist?

Que será, será...


Post 4

Thursday, December 7, 2006 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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Where you say "under pretense" you probably mean "on the grounds."  Your own experience would seem to indicate that most of the forums really are for Objectivists.  Rather than categorical, the policy is hypothetical - if you behave this way, then here's what will happen.

Peter


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Post 5

Thursday, December 7, 2006 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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Post 6

Thursday, December 7, 2006 - 5:17pmSanction this postReply
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Rather than categorical, the policy is hypothetical - if you behave this way, then here's what will happen.
In my experience, William has been nothing but polite, even though he and I disagree about the few things we have discussed. How did he behave that justified his banishment to the dissent forum?



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Post 7

Thursday, December 7, 2006 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Because, regardless of his genius, he didn't discover the calculus first, and he is only here to argue against Objectivism.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 12/07, 5:45pm)


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Post 8

Thursday, December 7, 2006 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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If it were a behavior issue, I would have either banned him or put him under moderation. In fact, he remains unmoderated (allowing him to post without moderator approval), but simply restricted to the Dissent forum. This isn't a form of punishment. It's simply a way to keep the rest of the forum more focused on the Objectivist ideas and framework.

Post 9

Friday, December 8, 2006 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
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And are you implying by "pretense" that you actually are an Objectivist?
Negative ghost-rider.
Where you say "under pretense" you probably mean "on the grounds."  Your own experience would seem to indicate that most of the forums really are for Objectivists.  Rather than categorical, the policy is hypothetical - if you behave this way, then here's what will happen.
Usually I mean what I say.  This is one of those usual times.  I was relegated to the dissent forum "under pretense" of "This site is for objectivists."  Now, while this is, in truth, a site for objectivists, it is not the case that my being reminded of this fact amounted to an honest disclosure of the rationale behind my being banned from the rest of the site.  How do I know this?  Simple logic, really.

1.  I enjoyed unrestricted access to the forum up until my being banned. 
2.  I was a self-avowed non-objectivist up until my being banned. 
 
Therefore, I'm led to believe that the 'powers that be' disapprove of my recent activity in the forum, i.e. whatever I've written as of late, the regime don't like it, man

Admittedly, my first reaction to being banned (from all areas of the forum with the exception of 'Dissent') was one of amusement.  Who was it, by the way, that at long last discovered my intimate ties to an anti-objectivist shadow organization which goes by an unknown acronymic title? 

Just out of interest, of which principle(s) found in "Principles of an Objectivist Forum" am I in violation?  If I had to venture a guess, I would say the second.  Now, under the second principle, I find it expressly stated, "If someone is making an honest effort to learn and understand Objectivism, they should be encouraged to stay and work it out.  But when someone shows up making wild assertions, and is unwilling to discuss them intelligently, then they provide no benefit to the forum.  For those people committed to an opposing worldview and unwilling to learn, they provide value only to the extent that people can and want to use them as a debating foil or sounding board."

Open question:  Am I "making wild assertions"?  Am I "unwilling to discuss these opinions intelligently"?  (An affirmative answer to the last question requires qualification, btw.)  Am I "committed to an opposing worldview"?  Hint:  Yes.  Am I "unwilling to learn"?  No, I'm actually, contrary to popular opinion, quite willing to learn.  But, I must ask, are the members of this website willing to learn also?    

This isn't a form of punishment.   
Au contraire.  'Separate but equal' has been passe since Brown vs. Board of Ed.     


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Post 10

Friday, December 8, 2006 - 6:38pmSanction this postReply
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1.  I enjoyed unrestricted access to the forum up until my being banned. 
2.  I was a self-avowed non-objectivist up until my being banned. 
You're not "banned." If you can post, you're not "banned."  The last guy who used the word "banned" for his Restricted to Dissent status (after weeks [months??] of whining and bait posting there)  was illuminated to the reality of the term by being completely "banned" from the site.  Joe would be happy to "ban" you. Just ask.



Post 11

Friday, December 8, 2006 - 8:48pmSanction this postReply
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I believe he meant banned from other areas of the site. The term is appropriate.

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Post 12

Friday, December 8, 2006 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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Our resident faith-based theist had this to say:
Open question: Am I "making wild assertions"? Am I "unwilling to discuss these opinions intelligently"? (An affirmative answer to the last question requires qualification, btw.) Am I "committed to an opposing worldview"? Hint: Yes. Am I "unwilling to learn"? No, I'm actually, contrary to popular opinion, quite willing to learn. But, I must ask, are the members of this website willing to learn also?
Give me a break!

Let me remind you, Gottfried, that it was you who conceded some time ago that the God you believe in so strongly and are willing to base your entire morality on must be accepted on faith (i.e., cannot be rationally defended). Do you really expect us to consider you an honest intellectual who is "willing to learn", if you abandon reason whenever it doesn't suit your preconceived religious ideas?

While this site does tolerate a certain amount of disagreement with Objectivism, it most emphatically is not a site for religious trolls who endorse faith as superior to reason.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 12/09, 10:25am)


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Post 13

Saturday, December 9, 2006 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
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Let me remind you, Gottfried, that it was you who conceded some time ago that the God you believe in so strongly and are willing to base your entire morality on must be accepted on faith (i.e., cannot be rational defended).
I stated that the existence of God could not be proven; I did not say that God's existence could not be rationally defended.  If you cannot grasp that distinction, I am truly sorry. 
Do you really expect us to consider you an honest intellectual who is "willing to learn", if you abandon reason whenever it doesn't suit your preconceived religious ideas?
To believe in something that is not proven is not to abandon reason, so long as reason provides sufficient evidence for motivating belief. 

Now, are you going to apologize for so grossly misrepresenting my beliefs, or are you going to continue to attack what you unfoundedly and pejoratively call my "preconceived religious ideas"? 


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Post 14

Saturday, December 9, 2006 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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Liebniz wrote,
I stated that the existence of God could not be proven; I did not say that God's existence could not be rationally defended. If you cannot grasp that distinction, I am truly sorry.
On your thread "Without God there is no purpose," I asked you the following question: "In a previous post, you referred me to Richard Swinburne's The Existence of God. Rather than my reading the entire book, why don't you present what you consider to be his most persuasive arguments." To which you replied, "No one believes in God (I hope) based on arguments for his existence. I think many people (myself included) believe in God because that's just the way they see it. God exists within their worldview."

I took this to mean that you believed in God not because you viewed the idea as rationally defensible, but simply because you accepted God's existence on faith. Are you now telling me that you do believe there are good arguments for God's existence -- that the idea can be rationally defended? If so, what are the arguments?
To believe in something that is not proven is not to abandon reason, so long as reason provides sufficient evidence for motivating belief.
Very well, what evidence do you consider sufficient to motivate a belief in God?

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 12/09, 7:31pm)


Post 15

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 3:47amSanction this postReply
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William wrote: 
On your thread "Without God there is no purpose," I asked you the following question: "In a previous post, you referred me to Richard Swinburne's The Existence of God. Rather than my reading the entire book, why don't you present what you consider to be his most persuasive arguments." To which you replied, "No one believes in God (I hope) based on arguments for his existence. I think many people (myself included) believe in God because that's just the way they see it. God exists within their worldview."

I took this to mean that you believed in God not because you viewed the idea as rationally defensible, but simply because you accepted God's existence on faith. Are you now telling me that you do believe there are good arguments for God's existence -- that the idea can be rationally defended? If so, what are the arguments?
You keep creating a false dichotomy.  It is possible to accept God's existence on faith and view the idea as rationally defensible.  Faith, in this case, describes an assent to an objective uncertainty, not an objective improbability. 

Arguments for God's existence attempt to prove the existence of God.  In my view, insofar as such arguments purport to prove God's existence, they're untenable; however, I think that the arguments taken together, in an inductive sense, form a large-scale collection of probabilistic evidence for God's existence. 

When I earlier wrote that many people believe in God because "that's just the way they see it," my point was that belief in God draws from, at bottom, innumerable and often inaccessible experiences, evidences, judgments, inclinations, dispositions, evaluations, partialities, etc.  This is not to say that belief in God is irrational, but rather that it more often than not arises from a person involuntarily.     


Post 16

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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GWL,

This is not to say that belief in God is irrational, but rather that it more often than not arises from a person involuntarily.
So, it's (most often) a revelation, right? Most often a belief that has not been consciously traced to basic premises or corollaries, right? More of a 'feeling' one has, about a 'being' that is rationally incomprehensible (a being impossible to conceptualize, because of the impossibility for the human mind to differentiate "God" from anything and everything else known to man).

Right?

Ed


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Post 17

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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Liebniz wrote,
You keep creating a false dichotomy. It is possible to accept God's existence on faith and view the idea as rationally defensible. Faith, in this case, describes an assent to an objective uncertainty, not an objective improbability.

Arguments for God's existence attempt to prove the existence of God. In my view, insofar as such arguments purport to prove God's existence, they're untenable; however, I think that the arguments taken together, in an inductive sense, form a large-scale collection of probabilistic evidence for God's existence.
As Kira, the heroine of We The Living said, "If you write a whole line of zeroes, it's still nothing." A collection of bad arguments does not add up to a good one. If I concoct a multitude of fallacious arguments that you are guilty of murder, could I then argue that, due to their sheer volume, they constitute probabilistic evidence of your guilt? I don't think so.

You stated earlier that "No one believes in God (I hope) based on arguments for his existence." Yet, you now say that these arguments do constitute a sound basis for that belief. Why would you then say that you hope no one believes in God based on arguments for his existence? Doesn't that imply that you don't regard them as a sound basis for that belief?

More importantly, you seem to be confusing a bad argument with insufficient evidence. A bad argument is no evidence at all. To be sure, it is possible that in a murder case, there is some evidence pointing to the accused, but not enough to justify a conviction. Let's say that witnesses place the accused at the scene of the crime, that articles of his clothing are found there along with his finger prints and samples of his blood, that the victim's blood is found on his clothes, and that he is caught trying to dispose of the incriminating evidence. The fact that witnesses place him at the scene of the crime would not by itself be sufficient to convict him, but together with all the other evidence, it is. But this is true, because each of these individual facts does qualify as actual evidence. A fallacious argument, on the other hand, does not.
When I earlier wrote that many people believe in God because "that's just the way they see it," my point was that belief in God draws from, at bottom, innumerable and often inaccessible experiences, evidences, judgments, inclinations, dispositions, evaluations, partialities, etc. This is not to say that belief in God is irrational, but rather that it more often than not arises from a person involuntarily.
This is beside the point. The issue here is whether the belief can be justified or must be accepted on faith -- i.e., without adequate justification, which is what "faith" means in this context. Judgments, inclinations, dispositions and evaluations can serve as the reasons for someone's belief. The question is: are those reasons good ones? From what I can tell, you don't have an adequate justification for your belief in God, and are claiming, in so many words, that it must be accepted on faith. You have abdicated reason in the very act of claiming to preserve it.

- Bill

Post 18

Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote: 
This is not to say that belief in God is irrational, but rather that it more often than not arises from a person involuntarily.
Ed responded: 
So, it's (most often) a revelation, right? Most often a belief that has not been consciously traced to basic premises or corollaries, right? More of a 'feeling' one has, about a 'being' that is rationally incomprehensible (a being impossible to conceptualize, because of the impossibility for the human mind to differentiate "God" from anything and everything else known to man).
In brief:  no; maybe; no.  Belief in God is, for many people, 'properly basic' (to borrow Plantingian terminology).  This means that its epistemic justification is essentially non-inferential and intuitive.  After all, not all justified beliefs need to be arrived at through conscious reasoning from well-derived premises, at least not if one is of a certain foundationalist variety.  Yes, belief in God can be described as a sort of "feeling" one has, but an intuition of this order is not much different from the strong intuition many of us adopt with regard to the existence of other minds, an intuition rationally supported via analysis of human behavior in conjunction with personal introspection.  As to your supposition that theistic belief pertains to "a being that is rationally incomprehensible," I can only respond that orthodox Christianity has never asserted God to be purely incomprehensible, but has rather developed analogical language to speak of his naturally-derived attributes, and a specialized theological vocabulary to speak of his revelation-derived properties (for example in the case of the Trinity).  Christianity is not Neo-Platonism (a fact the early Church fathers were careful to point out). 
You stated earlier that "No one believes in God (I hope) based on arguments for his existence." Yet, you now say that these arguments do constitute a sound basis for that belief. Why would you then say that you hope no one believes in God based on arguments for his existence? Doesn't that imply that you don't regard them as a sound basis for that belief?
I didn't say they constitute a sound basis for belief.  I said they amount to probabilistic evidence for God's existence.  The reason why I earlier wrote of my hope that no one believes in God based on theistic arguments was intended to show that other factors, such as personal experiences and broader epistemic commitments, are desirable in order to establish firm and existentially meaningful belief.  
A collection of bad arguments does not add up to a good one. If I concoct a multitude of fallacious arguments that you are guilty of murder, could I then argue that, due to their sheer volume, they constitute probabilistic evidence of your guilt? I don't think so.
Theistic arguments are not necessarily "bad arguments".  Some forms of the ontological argument (like the Godelian formulation), for instance, are universally recognized as valid.  The difficulty is that in these arguments (and in most philosophical arguments that actually purpose to prove something beyond mathematics) you get people who, for whatever reason, don't accept the premises as necessarily true:  they can come up with some ingenious and completely ridiculous counter-examples with which to assail the premises.  Hell, philosophers are still trying to figure out how to resolve Zeno's paradoxes and deal with skeptics who refuse to trust even the appearances delivered by the senses.  Why?  Because some maverick philosopher always finds a counter-example to arguments intended to refute Zeno's paradoxes and recurrent manifestations of Pyrrhonian skepticism. 
The issue here is whether the belief can be justified or must be accepted on faith -- i.e., without adequate justification, which is what "faith" means in this context.
Considering beliefs cannot be measured in terms of probability (there are various philosophical problems with this understanding of belief), "adequate justification" for them is open to unceasing philosophical disagreement about doxastic and non-doxastic forms of "faith". 


Post 19

Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 7:43amSanction this postReply
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GWL, please comment on the following quote from Aquinas, which supports the proposition that God is incomprehensible ...

Since we cannot know what God is, but only what He is not, we must consider ways in which He is not rather than the ways in which He is. --Summa Theologiae, I, Pt. 1, Qu. 3, introd.
Ed


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