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Post 40

Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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Hmmmm....so much for 'civil' discussion worth responding to. When such 'sensitivity' to questions result in insult-responses, the responses have no rational worth for continual following up on. Short of enjoying 'devil-advocate' exercises, why bother?
It wasn't an insult.  The point was simply that Robert's statement revealed either a misreading or a non-reading of my earlier posts.  Ignorance, of course, was not predicated of his person, but rather of his possible understanding of my earlier posts (n.b. disjunctions are not necessarily affirmative). 
Why others continue reading such 'debaters' (who obviously can't stand even an apparent hint of merely possible criticism), much less responding to, after such, I have no idea.
My reaction was occasioned not by a "hint of possible criticism" in Robert's post, but rather by the fact that Robert's one-sentence 'refutation' of my statement was neither legitimate nor rational, and in fact belied an ignorance of my earlier posts.   
I'll certainly read no more of this thread, much less anything by GWL. I suggest that others do the same.
So I'm not entitled to call someone out when he/she makes an obviously uninformed statement?  In any event, you're in no position to accuse me of being infelicitous.  In an above post, you stated that I had been "decrying that [my] preferred debate subjects are not wanted anywhere than in 'Dissent.", when, as was self-evident, I never made such a complaint.  If you can show that I did make such a complaint, please point it out.  
Very true - tis the old Fields addage - "Never give a sucker an even break, nor smarten up a chump..."
How does this contribute at all to the discussion?  You didn't even answer my objection to your earlier post.  This shows another disjunction:  either you failed to read my objection, or you did read it, and, being unable/unwilling to engage it, decided to resort to petty name-calling. 
   


Post 41

Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 12:11amSanction this postReply
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When you give me an ounce of God, then I'll listen. Until then God is that little thing people like to talk about, but have no proof and no reason to believe in. :)

Remember, the proof rests on your shoulders, GWL, not us. Also, what is rational is not explicitly empirical. A mind without evidence [facts] is a mind that spins away looking at itself as if it is a god. Meaning, all the logical proofs in the world doesn't prove God or anything exists empirically. It just says it could be logical for such a thing to exist, but not factual. :)

-- Bridget

Post 42

Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 5:24amSanction this postReply
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When you give me an ounce of God, then I'll listen.
I hope you're kidding. 
Until then God is that little thing people like to talk about, but have no proof and no reason to believe in.
False dichotomy.  I can't give you "an ounce" of truth, or aesthetic quality, or relation, or number, or concept.  Does this mean that truths, aesthetic qualities, relations, numbers, and concepts are just "little things people like to talk about, but have no proof and no reason to believe in"?  I'm afraid not.  ;)
Remember, the proof rests on your shoulders, GWL, not us.
Which is interesting because I never purported to be capable of proving God exists. 
Also, what is rational is not explicitly empirical.
That's been a theme of mine, yes.
A mind without evidence [facts] is a mind that spins away looking at itself as if it is a god.
But wouldn't a god be privy to evidence and facts?  (One would hope so!) 
Meaning, all the logical proofs in the world doesn't prove God or anything exists empirically.
Which explains why most logical proofs aren't concerned with proving the existence of empirical entities.  (Usually that's a given). 
It just says it could be logical for such a thing to exist, but not factual.
"Facts" usually presuppose certain unproven assumptions, e.g. consistency of memory, etc. 


Post 43

Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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GWL: I hope you're kidding.

Me: Nope, I need real proof, that's the point of the ounce statement.

GWL: False dichotomy. I can't give you "an ounce" of truth, or aesthetic quality, or relation, or number, or concept. Does this mean that truths, aesthetic qualities, relations, numbers, and concepts are just "little things people like to talk about, but have no proof and no reason to believe in"? I'm afraid not. ;)

Me: But a concept can be validated by external properties such as tangible evidence. Take Gravity for example. It has no one particular tangible property, but there are a number of tangible properties that validate its existence as a phenomenon and a principle. Also, concepts must be predicated on the same operational parameters otherwise it's just mental masturbation.

GWL: Which is interesting because I never purported to be capable of proving God exists.

Me: You've made claims to the contrary. Everything from us having no purpose without a God to silly crap like what you put in the prior post are based on the idea that a God must exist.

GWL: That's been a theme of mine, yes.

Me: Then provide the proof that God exists. And I don't mean logical proof.

GWL: But wouldn't a god be privy to evidence and facts? (One would hope so!)

Me: Just as a killer is privy to a crime? Yes, but that requires proof that EVERYONE CAN DETECT. Take quarks for example, very hard to detect and elusive little particles. Yet the evidence for their existence is not privy to any one person, it's apparent when you give the data from particle collider detectors. Thus, is privy to anyone that wants to know. God on the other hand seems to only be privy to itself and that no one else can detect it. Therefore, your God effectively does not exist at all to the rest of the universe and the inhabitants therein. Now, if God has an existence that is objective like the quark, then God's existence is privy to everyone that can find the evidence or apprehend it. You have not provided any evidence that I can detect on my own, nor does it fit in reasonable apprehension.

GWL: Which explains why most logical proofs aren't concerned with proving the existence of empirical entities. (Usually that's a given).

Me: Then the logical proof is useless. I've explained that to Plantinga when he came onto PT and it was clear he couldn't grasp that fact.

GWL: "Facts" usually presuppose certain unproven assumptions, e.g. consistency of memory, etc.

Me: Nope, facts presuppose facts. In that each given percept is independent from other percepts until verified by methods and means that are consistent with them. I suggest you take at least one semester in inductive logic before making that error again. *smacks you with the nerf bat of justice*

-- Bridget is still waiting for proof of God [or Godet]...

Post 44

Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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W hat - ye mean there isn't an appointment in Samaria? ;-)

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Post 45

Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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Remember, logically the Flying Spaghetti Monster is equal to God. ^_^ But emotionally he's cooler! I mean he gives you a babe factory and a beer volcano in the afterlife!

-- Bridget

Post 46

Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
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Sanction Bridget!

Post 47

Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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GWL: I hope you're kidding.

Me: Nope, I need real proof, that's the point of the ounce statement.
Yes, and real proof isn't necessarily empirical. 
But a concept can be validated by external properties such as tangible evidence. Take Gravity for example. It has no one particular tangible property, but there are a number of tangible properties that validate its existence as a phenomenon and a principle. Also, concepts must be predicated on the same operational parameters otherwise it's just mental masturbation.
Gravity is not the best example because gravity is a word used to describe an empirical phenomenon that does not exist in all possible worlds.  Properties, and other things such as numbers and truths, exist in all possible worlds-- meaning that it is their existence which is necessary to all possible worlds (not their instantiation).
GWL: Which is interesting because I never purported to be capable of proving God exists.

Me: You've made claims to the contrary. Everything from us having no purpose without a God to silly crap like what you put in the prior post are based on the idea that a God must exist.
Show me where I've made claims to the contrary.  The claims I make which concern or touch upon the subject of God, here and elsewhere, are obviously motivated by my worldview, which is, as has been made evident, unabashedly theistic.  I explicitly made this point earlier in order to avoid being misinterpreted as making absolutist claims, which I have/had no intention of making. 
GWL: That's been a theme of mine, yes.

Me: Then provide the proof that God exists. And I don't mean logical proof.
What sort of proof?
GWL: But wouldn't a god be privy to evidence and facts? (One would hope so!)

Me: Just as a killer is privy to a crime? Yes, but that requires proof that EVERYONE CAN DETECT. Take quarks for example, very hard to detect and elusive little particles. Yet the evidence for their existence is not privy to any one person, it's apparent when you give the data from particle collider detectors. Thus, is privy to anyone that wants to know. God on the other hand seems to only be privy to itself and that no one else can detect it. Therefore, your God effectively does not exist at all to the rest of the universe and the inhabitants therein. Now, if God has an existence that is objective like the quark, then God's existence is privy to everyone that can find the evidence or apprehend it. You have not provided any evidence that I can detect on my own, nor does it fit in reasonable apprehension.
People don't "detect" God's existence because to detect the existence of an omnipresent being as omnipresent is to...demonstrate that such a being is precisely not omnipresent.  Kierkegaard communicated the paradox ably:  "an omnipresent being should be recognizable precisely by being invisible." (Concluding Unscientific Postscript to the Philosophical Fragments).  Your assertion that God seems to be privy only to himself is true in a sense, insofar as only God can fully comprehend himself, but this is not to say that no one can experience God in everyday life (usually within the framework of a religious tradition but not always).  Many people claim to have had religious experiences over the course of their lives- most of them cases in which, in my opinion, God was made present to them in a more direct way than is usual (i.e. beyond sustaining, acting as the ontological ground for, everything that exists), probably on account of God's grace moving them toward a hightened state of perception, or induction from perception.  That not all persons claim to have been affected by such experiences in no way undercuts the existence of the God who effects them. 
GWL: Which explains why most logical proofs aren't concerned with proving the existence of empirical entities. (Usually that's a given).

Me: Then the logical proof is useless. I've explained that to Plantinga when he came onto PT and it was clear he couldn't grasp that fact.
No, it just means that the logical proof works to demonstrate that certain relationships or properties obtain with respect to certain concepts.     
GWL: "Facts" usually presuppose certain unproven assumptions, e.g. consistency of memory, etc.

Me: Nope, facts presuppose facts. In that each given percept is independent from other percepts until verified by methods and means that are consistent with them. I suggest you take at least one semester in inductive logic before making that error again. *smacks you with the nerf bat of justice*
The difficulty is that the mental act of appropriating the sense phenomenon is affected and shaped by underlying presuppositions, the truth of which remain unproven, though they provide a consistent schema.
Remember, logically the Flying Spaghetti Monster is equal to God.
In a conceptual sense, the two are obviously different.  As to the name:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose/ By any other word would smell as sweet."

                                                                                         - Shakespeare. 


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Post 48

Saturday, January 6, 2007 - 2:08amSanction this postReply
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If one defines "god" as a pure spirit who created the universe out of nothing, then such a god is impossible by its very nature. A pure, disembodied spirit is no more of a possibility than a pure, disembodied color, shape, size or quantity. If I said, "I have two in my pocket," you'd ask me two what? If I replied, "two nothing, just plain two," you'd be justified in dismissing my assertion out of hand. Similarly, if I said, "A great mind lives next door," you might ask me what he or she looks like. If I said, "Oh, it doesn't have an appearance, because it doesn't have a body; it's just a pure mind," you'd likewise be justified in dismissing my assertion out of hand. A mind or spirit is an attribute of a living organism, and cannot exist outside that context.

Remember, also that a consciousness must be conscious in some particular form, e.g., visually, auditorially, tactilely, etc., and, accordingly, must possess a particular means of awareness by virtue of a specific sensory organ(s). A pure consciousness is impossible for that reason as well, since it would lack the preconditions of awareness.

As for creating the universe out of nothing, if there were nothing in existence, there could be no god, because a consciousness conscious of nothing is a contradiction in terms. Nor could the universe have been created out of nothing, since every creation requires pre-existing materials from which it is made. Creation presupposes existence; existence (as such) does not presuppose creation.

Also, why would a benevolent and omniscient being, like a god, want to create a race of intelligent creatures, whom it knew would disobey it and inevitably be sent to Hell where they would suffer for all eternity? Why would an intelligent and benevolent (let alone omniscient) being even want to do something that bizarre and sadistic?!

Besides, how could an immortal, indestructible god, who has nothing to gain or lose by its actions, have any values or desires that needed to be fulfilled and for the sake of which it is motivated to choose between alternative courses of action? How could it have any goals that it recognized as worth pursuing? How could it regard anything as for or against it, as serving or threatening its welfare, as fulfilling or frustrating its interests? It could have no interests and no goals. The very idea of a god's making choices and of orchestrating the kind of morality play that is the stuff of religious myth and superstition is preposterous. Values, interests, ends and goals are biological phenomena that apply only to living organisms that have something to gain or lose by their actions. Teleological action is entirely inapplicable to an indestructible, invulnerable, non-biological entity such as a god.

Our resident theist claims that without a god there would be no purpose. Quite the contrary: If there were such a thing as a god, it could have no purpose.

- Bill



Post 49

Sunday, January 7, 2007 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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If one defines "god" as a pure spirit who created the universe out of nothing, then such a god is impossible by its very nature. A pure, disembodied spirit is no more of a possibility than a pure, disembodied color, shape, size or quantity.
The hidden assumption this line of thought betrays is that a spirit is essentially something that has "lost" or has been "removed from" its body.  Given contemporary discussions concerning the mind-body problem, and the advent of materialistic reductionism, such an assumption is perhaps understandable.  However, in order to be made aware of precisely what the Christian notion of God actually is, it is necessary to place questions about the metaphysical status of man to one side, so as not to unconsciously import a sort of Cartesian-esque mind-matter dialectic into inquiries having to do with the nature of God.  God, from the theistic perspective, is not described as 'spirit' because his nature is antithetical to what is physical, but rather because his nature possesses a mode of existence over and above what is physical.  God, on this view, is the height of Reality itself, Being itself-- his distinction from the world consists not in a lack but in a positive possession:  Existence itself.  Having thus presented what is the correct understanding of the way in which God is 'spirit', it becomes evident that the analogy of a "disembodied spirit" to a "pure, disembodied color, shape, size or quantity", fails for two reasons.  First, it carries the false implication that God is "disembodied"-- as if it should be a perfection for Him to possess a body as well as a spirit, when a body describes something essentially material and, hence, limited.  Second, colors, shapes, sizes, and quantities, which appear in your analogy, refer to properties, whereas God, as Spirit, is property-less (because the de re predication of multiple properties to a single entity implies disunity and disharmony-- things God can't have).  As Aquinas says of God (on account of a philosophical reflection upon His Divine Name revealed to Moses, viz. 'Yahweh', i.e. "I am that I am"):  His essence is his existence [i.e. 'what' God is (essence) is indistinguishable from 'that' He is (existence)]. 
If I said, "I have two in my pocket," you'd ask me two what? If I replied, "two nothing, just plain two," you'd be justified in dismissing my assertion out of hand. Similarly, if I said, "A great mind lives next door," you might ask me what he or she looks like. If I said, "Oh, it doesn't have an appearance, because it doesn't have a body; it's just a pure mind," you'd likewise be justified in dismissing my assertion out of hand.
As has been shown above, this form of argument by analogy fails.     
A mind or spirit is an attribute of a living organism, and cannot exist outside that context.
This is a good example of epistemological closed-mindedness.  Just because we are empirically unfamiliar with any living, earthly organism that has a mind/spirit which is separable from its material being, it in no wise follows that material composition is necessary to the existence of a being possessing a nature analogous to 'mind'.  (I say "analogous" because God's mind is not like ours.  Indeed, it would be misleading to speak of God as 'having' a mind at all, insofar as God just is, intrinsically, on the order of intellectual substance.)  Such a supposition-- one which metaphysically restricts the 'property' of mind to physical entities-- is simply intellectually presumptuous.  
Remember, also that a consciousness must be conscious in some particular form, e.g., visually, auditorially, tactilely, etc., and, accordingly, must possess a particular means of awareness by virtue of a specific sensory organ(s). A pure consciousness is impossible for that reason as well, since it would lack the preconditions of awareness.
A consciousness must be in some particular form for us, yes.  But Christianity is not so anthropomorphically inclined as to suppose that God is conscious in the same sense that we are, and that the consciousness of God faces the same restrictions and limitations that human consciousness does. 
As for creating the universe out of nothing, if there were nothing in existence, there could be no god, because a consciousness conscious of nothing is a contradiction in terms. Nor could the universe have been created out of nothing, since every creation requires pre-existing materials from which it is made. Creation presupposes existence; existence (as such) does not presuppose creation.
Well, 'in the beginning' as it were, when it was just God, God was conscious of himself.  Indeed, as Aquinas asserts, the intellect of God knows his creation through himself, since it is by contemplating himself that God perfectly knows that which he creates, i.e. all those things which participate in himself.  The first objection thus fails because it neglects to realize the self-consciousness of God, and the way in which God's self-consciousness allows him to become conscious of entities other than himself.  As to objection that the universe could not have been created out of nothing, Aquinas anticipated it, and makes it very clear how this is possible, and how it does not violate the ancients' maxim, "From nothing, nothing comes", in Summa Contra Gentiles, bk. II. 

To be continued...  


Post 50

Sunday, January 7, 2007 - 7:08pmSanction this postReply
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Some things to ponder, regarding religious beliefs ...

Religions are not revealed: they are evolved. If a religion were revealed by God, that religion would be perfect in whole and in part, and would be as perfect at the first moment of its revelation as after ten thousand years of practice. There has never been a religion that fulfils those conditions.--Robert Blatchford, God and My Neighbor, 1903.
It has always seemed absurd to suppose that a god would choose for his companions, during all eternity, the dear souls whose highest and only ambitition is to obey.--Robert G. Ingersoll, "Individuality."
A being who can create a race of men devoid of real freedom and inevitably foredoomed to be sinners, and then punish them for being what he has made them, may be omnipotent and various other things, but he is not what the English language has always intended by the adjective holy.--John Stuart Mill, Examination of Sir William Hamilton's Philosophy, 1865.
Since the masses of the people are inconstant, full of unruly desires, passionate, and reckless of consequence, they must be filled with fears to keep them in order. The ancients did well, therefore, to invent gods, and the belief in punishment after death.--Polybius, Histories, 125 B.C.
Heaven, as conventionally described, is a place so inane, so dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have described a day at the seaside.--George Bernard Shaw, Misalliance, 1910.
Our reason can never admit the testimony of men who not only declare that they were eyewitnesses of miracles, but that the Deity was irrational; for He commanded that He should be believed, He proposed the highest rewards for faith, eternal punishment for disbelief.--Percy Byssshe Shelley, Queen Mab, 1813.
God's contempt for human minds is evidenced by miracles. He judges them unworthy of being drawn to Him by other means than those of stupefaction and the crudest modes of sensibility.--Paul Vale`ry, Tel quel, 1941-43.
Ed


Post 51

Monday, January 8, 2007 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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Aquinas on the Divine Name (which was discussed in my earlier post):
"This name HE WHO IS is most properly applied to God, for three reasons:

   First, because of its signification. For it does not signify form, but simply existence itself. Hence since the existence of God is His essence itself, which can be said of no other (Question [3], Article [4]), it is clear that among other names this one specially denominates God, for everything is denominated by its form.
   Secondly, on account of its universality. For all other names are either less universal, or, if convertible with it, add something above it at least in idea; hence in a certain way they inform and determine it. Now our intellect cannot know the essence of God itself in this life, as it is in itself, but whatever mode it applies in determining what it understands about God, it falls short of the mode of what God is in Himself. Therefore the less determinate the names are, and the more universal and absolute they are, the more properly they are applied to God. Hence Damascene says (De Fide Orth. i) that, "HE WHO IS, is the principal of all names applied to God; for comprehending all in itself, it contains existence itself as an infinite and indeterminate sea of substance." Now by any other name some mode of substance is determined, whereas this name HE WHO IS, determines no mode of being, but is indeterminate to all; and therefore it denominates the "infinite ocean of substance."
   Thirdly, from its consignification, for it signifies present existence; and this above all properly applies to God, whose existence knows not past or future, as Augustine says (De Trin. v)."-Summa Theologiae (p. 1, q. 13, a. 11)
Let me now return to William's statement: 
Nor could the universe have been created out of nothing, since every creation requires pre-existing materials from which it is made.
Aquinas and Co. would argue that, for limited beings such as ourselves, our ability to create is restricted to acting upon preexistent material.  However, for God, who is Pure Act and Unparticipated Esse, it belongs to create things 'from the ground up' as it were, i.e. to create out of nothing.  Such an act is fitting for a Being such as God, who is able to impart both form and substance, since He is properly beyond form and substance, and the limitation implied therein.
Also, why would a benevolent and omniscient being, like a god, want to create a race of intelligent creatures, whom it knew would disobey it and inevitably be sent to Hell where they would suffer for all eternity? Why would an intelligent and benevolent (let alone omniscient) being even want to do something that bizarre and sadistic?! 
A good question.  I would point out that it is not assured that anyone is in, or will be in, Hell.  As Holy Church teaches, in a Catechism published with approval from Rome:
“Neither Holy Scripture nor the Church’s Tradition of faith asserts with certainty of any man that he is actually in hell. Hell is always held before our eyes as a real possibility, one connected with the offers of conversion and life.” The Church’s Confession of Faith: A Catholic Catechism for Adults, tr. Stephen Wentworth Arndt (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1987), p. 346. 
Thus, your question appears wrongheaded-- at least for the Catholic.  For it cannot be admitted that those intelligent creatures created by God are "inevitably" headed to Hell.  Now, as to whether or not God 'foreknows' human disobedience, it must be expressly stated that He does.  However, this knowledge does not interfere with human freedom, for God knows this particular truth atemporally, and thus does not cause the human to act sinfully. 
Besides, how could an immortal, indestructible god, who has nothing to gain or lose by its actions, have any values or desires that needed to be fulfilled and for the sake of which it is motivated to choose between alternative courses of action? How could it have any goals that it recognized as worth pursuing? How could it regard anything as for or against it, as serving or threatening its welfare, as fulfilling or frustrating its interests? It could have no interests and no goals.
God is Love.  People often forget this, I think, which is perhaps why Pope Benedict XVI took it upon himself to write his first encyclical "Deus Caritas Est."  Thus, although it must be agreed that God himself has nothing to gain or lose by his actions, it cannot be admitted that God cannot create creatures ordered to Himself as an end.  A God who is Love would order his creations to Himself as an end, not on account of Himself, but on account of his creation.  Thus, though God's goal is and remains Himself, God, through grace, created beings ordered to Himself, who could be drawn to Himself as an end.  As Aquinas put it,
"Every one desires the perfection of that which for its own sake he wills and loves: for the things which we love for their own sakes we wish to be excellent, and ever better and better, and to be multiplied as much as possible. But God wills and loves His essence for its own sake. Now that essence is not augmentable and multipliable in itself, but can be multiplied only in its likeness, which is shared by many. God therefore wills the multitude of things, inasmuch as He wills and loves His own perfection.
3. Whoever loves anything in itself and for itself, wills consequently all things in which that thing is found: as he who loves sweetness in itself must love all sweet things. But God wills and loves His own being in itself and for itself; and all other being is a sort of participation by likeness of His being. 6. The will follows the understanding. But God with His understanding understands Himself in the first place, and in Himself understands all other things: therefore in like manner He wills Himself in the first place, and in willing Himself wills all other things. This is confirmed by the authority of Holy Scripture: Thou lovest all things that are, and hatest nothing of the things that thou hast made (Wisd. xi, 2)" -Summa Contra Gentiles, (1.73)
Teleological action is entirely inapplicable to an indestructible, invulnerable, non-biological entity such as a god.
Only if one thinks anthropomorphically. 
If there were such a thing as a god, it could have no purpose.
Please refer to the italicized sentence in point 3, given in the Aquinas excerpt above. 


Post 52

Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:12amSanction this postReply
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     Man, some people just masochistically love beating their head against a wall. Where's Pink Floyd when you need them for background music?

LLAP
J:D


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