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Post 20

Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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Liebniz wrote,
Theistic arguments are not necessarily "bad arguments". Some forms of the ontological argument (like the Godelian formulation), for instance, are universally recognized as valid.
If you think it is valid, please present what you understand to be the Godelian formulation of the ontological argument.

- Bill

Post 21

Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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GWL, please comment on the following quote from Aquinas, which supports the proposition that God is incomprehensible ...

Since we cannot know what God is, but only what He is not, we must consider ways in which He is not rather than the ways in which He is. --Summa Theologiae, I, Pt. 1, Qu. 3, introd.
No, it actually doesn't support the proposition that God is incomprehensible; what is does show is the medieval scholastic via negativa manner of assigning God attributes.  Aquinas does a good job of explaining how, and the extent to which, we are able to "know God" (through natural reason alone, i.e. without revelation) in  Summa Contra Gentiles (I, ch. 3): 
 The truths that we confess concerning God fall under two modes. Some things true of God are beyond all the competence of human reason, as that God is Three and One. Other things there are to which even human reason can attain, as the existence and unity of God, which philosophers have proved to a demonstration under the guidance of the light of natural reason. That there are points of absolute intelligibility in God altogether beyond the compass of human reason, most manifestly appears. For since the leading principle of all knowledge of any given subject-matter is an understanding of the thing's innermost being, or substance -- according to the doctrine of the Philosopher, that the essence is the principle of demonstration -- it follows that the mode of our knowledge of the substance must be the mode of knowledge of whatever we know about the substance. Hence if the human understanding comprehends the substance of anything, as of a stone or triangle, none of the points of intelligibility about that thing will exceed the capacity of human reason. But this is not our case with regard to God. The human understanding cannot go so far of its natural power as to grasp His substance, since under the conditions of the present life the knowledge of our understanding commences with sense; and therefore objects beyond sense cannot be grasped by human understanding except so far as knowledge is gathered of them through the senses. But things of sense cannot lead our understanding to read in them the essence of the Divine Substance, inasmuch as they are effects inadequate to the power that caused them. Nevertheless our understanding is thereby led to some knowledge of God, namely, of His existence and of other attributes that must necessarily be attributed to the First Cause. There are, therefore, some points of intelligibility in God, accessible to human reason, and other points that altogether transcend the power of human reason. 


Post 22

Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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If you think it is valid, please present what you understand to be the Godelian formulation of the ontological argument.
OK.  This reproduction of Godel's argument comes directly from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/#6): 
Definition 1: x is God-like iff x has as essential properties those and only those properties which are positive Definition 2: A is an essence of x iff for every property B, x has B necessarily iff A entails B
Definition 3: x necessarily exists iff every essence of x is necessarily exemplified
Axiom 1: If a property is positive, then its negation is not positive.
Axiom 2: Any property entailed by — i.e., strictly implied by — a positive property is positive
Axiom 3: The property of being God-like is positive
Axiom 4: If a property is positive, then it is necessarily positive
Axiom 5: Necessary existence is positive
Axiom 6: For any property P, if P is positive, then being necessarily P is positive.
Theorem 1: If a property is positive, then it is consistent, i.e., possibly exemplified.
Corollary 1: The property of being God-like is consistent.
Theorem 2: If something is God-like, then the property of being God-like is an essence of that thing.
Theorem 3: Necessarily, the property of being God-like is exemplified.
The author of the article (who is not a theist, by the way) comments: 
Given a sufficiently generous conception of properties, and granted the acceptability of the underlying modal logic, the listed theorems do follow from the axioms [i.e. the argument is valid]...So, criticisms of the argument are bound to focus on the axioms, or on the other assumptions which are required in order to construct the proof.


Post 23

Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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     GWL's arguments ARE interesting, to a point. It's unfortunate that they all center around either debating O'ism's points A, B, or C or decrying that his preferred debate subjects are not wanted anywhere than in 'Dissent.'

     Anyone remember the militant agnostic Nick Otani?

LLAP
J:D

P.S: Ed: I don't think 'negative theology' is the way to go with one who argues ontology (by proxy) via hypothecico-deductive 'axiomatic' logic.

(Edited by John Dailey on 12/14, 1:25pm)


Post 24

Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
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GWL: I stated that the existence of God could not be proven; I did not say that God's existence could not be rationally defended.  If you cannot grasp that distinction, I am truly sorry.

Personally, I often point to the debate over the heliocentric model.  For 150 years after Copernicus, the empirical evidence was "uncertain" to be most gracious and actually supported the geocentric model better. 
 
In other words, by using the heliocentric model, astronomers could not accurately predict the locations of planets.  Mars was the worst case.
 
One of the reasons that we call this part of the the planet "the new world" is because with the Earth flat and all, it was not perfectly clear that America was not literally another world
 
The point is that I agree with you, GWL that we can rationally defend assertions that we cannot prove.


Post 25

Friday, December 15, 2006 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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The point is that I agree with you, GWL that we can rationally defend assertions that we cannot prove.
I appreciate your agreement, but wonder why you chose as an illustrative example a case in which what was once rationally defended turned out to be demonstrably false. 


Post 26

Friday, December 15, 2006 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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GWL,

Two things need be, in order for an argument to be sound:

1) valid inferences (ie. validity)
2) true premises (ie. reality)

Godel's argument is unsound ...

Definition 1: x is God-like iff x has as essential properties those and only those properties which are positive
This definition smuggles in a conception of God (what Rand calls a Stolen Concept). If the argument was about a "zero" or a "negative", then it would read ...

"x is negative-like iff x has as essential properties those and only those properties which are positive"

... showing the inherent problem of just placing a "word" into the phrase "x is _____-like iff x has ... properties which are positive".

Axiom 3: The property of being God-like is positive
See above.

Ed


Post 27

Friday, December 15, 2006 - 5:14pmSanction this postReply
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Two things need be, in order for an argument to be sound:

1) valid inferences (ie. validity)
2) true premises (ie. reality)
Right.
Godel's argument is unsound ...

Definition 1: x is God-like iff x has as essential properties those and only those properties which are positive
This definition smuggles in a conception of God (what Rand calls a Stolen Concept). If the argument was about a "zero" or a "negative", then it would read ...

"x is negative-like iff x has as essential properties those and only those properties which are positive"

... showing the inherent problem of just placing a "word" into the phrase "x is _____-like iff x has ... properties which are positive".

 
Well, of course it "smuggles" in a concept; it's an ontological argument, i.e. it's of a priori form, moving from the concept to the concept's exemplification. 

While I think that there are certain difficulties with Godel's argument, your criticism just doesn't hold.  There is nothing philosophically underhanded about defining things prior to arguing about them.  You also seem to have misunderstood what Godel meant by "positive" properties.  Positive properties are just properties which imply substantiality, and not privation.  As Godel put it:  "Positive means positive in the moral aesthetic sense (independently of the accidental structure of the world)... It may also mean pure attribution as opposed to privation (or containing privation)." (Gödel 1995) (my emphasis) 


Post 28

Friday, December 15, 2006 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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GWL,

There is nothing philosophically underhanded about defining things prior to arguing about them.
Au contraire, while there is nothing "logically" underhanded about defining things prior to arguing about them, philosophy is something that necessarily involves more than mere logical consistency -- it, when properly performed, also, and necessarily, involves truth. It seems that YOU have missed MY point. The philosophical underhandedness engaged in (by Godel) is in failing to differentiate the definiendum (in this case, God) from all other known entities. You see, GWL, THAT is the ultimate purpose of a definition. It's what definitions are "needed" for (for keeping straight what it is that we are talking about -- from all the other known things that we "might" be talking about).

It is philosophically underhanded to define something by nonessentials (ie. by attempting to define, while failing to differentiate).

You also seem to have misunderstood what Godel meant by "positive" properties.  Positive properties are just properties which imply substantiality, and not privation.
I did not misunderstand. And, if you were more careful, you should not have even thought that I would (had you been thinking more straight, about what it is that I've been saying to you). Considering the "privation" proposition that I have already offered from Aquinas, you should KNOW that I understand the difference between substantiality ("being largely but not wholly that which is specified") and privation ("lack of what is needed for existence").

Definitions -- are from m-w.com; refutation of your argumentative points -- are from me.

Ed


Post 29

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 2:13amSanction this postReply
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The philosophical underhandedness engaged in (by Godel) is in failing to differentiate the definiendum (in this case, God) from all other known entities.
I just can't see where he does this. 
You see, GWL, THAT is the ultimate purpose of a definition. It's what definitions are "needed" for (for keeping straight what it is that we are talking about -- from all the other known things that we "might" be talking about).
I'm in complete agreement with you. 

It is philosophically underhanded to define something by nonessentials (ie. by attempting to define, while failing to differentiate).
Es verdad. 
I did not misunderstand. And, if you were more careful, you should not have even thought that I would (had you been thinking more straight, about what it is that I've been saying to you). Considering the "privation" proposition that I have already offered from Aquinas, you should KNOW that I understand the difference between substantiality ("being largely but not wholly that which is specified") and privation ("lack of what is needed for existence").
One would have hoped that you grasped the distinction from what you said earlier, but, to my mind, it wasn't that you didn't understand the distinction inasmuch as you were unaware that it applied to Godel's theorerm. 


Post 30

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 5:19amSanction this postReply
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GWL,

The philosophical underhandedness engaged in (by Godel) is in failing to differentiate the definiendum (in this case, God) from all other known entities.
I just can't see where he does this. 

G-"double-u" (if you don't mind me calling you THAT), you said there's nothing wrong with defining terms before argument. On paper, you are entirely correct to say that. In reality, Godel DID NOT do that. There is one and only one ultimate purpose of definition: differentiation. Godel didn't differentiate, and THEREFORE, Godel didn't "define." That's my point here (that you can't sit there and argue that it's proper to define terms, when he didn't do that in the first place -- ie. my argument still stands).

... to my mind, it wasn't that you didn't understand the distinction [regarding substantiality & privation] inasmuch as you were unaware that it applied to Godel's theorerm. 

See above.

Ed


Post 31

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 5:39amSanction this postReply
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Let me try to give an example of the way in which the assignment of all and only positive properties to the essence of a thing can entail differentiation from all other entities.  Now, as you know, all existing entities, insofar as they exist, possess positive properites.  However, it must be noted that the mode of instantiation of certain positive properties necessarily implies privation or limitation.  For instance, certain entities exist materially (in the classical sense) as extended substances.  But extension obviously implies limitation and divisibility.  Hence, though most entities we encounter in our universe are extended (exceptions might include mental concepts), we must say that God differs from these entities in that He exists as unextended substance. 
-Leibniz


Post 32

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
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Leibniz (the real one, not me) seems to have understood this well, as can be seen from his Monadology (1714), wherein he writes:
41. Whence it follows that God is absolutely perfect; for perfection is nothing but amount of positive reality, in the strict sense, leaving out of account the limits or bounds in things which are limited. And where there are no bounds, that is to say in God, perfection is absolutely infinite. (Theod. 22, Pref. [E. 469 a; G. vi. 27].) 42. It follows also that created beings derive their perfections from the influence of God, but that their imperfections come from their own nature, which is incapable of being without limits. For it is in this that they differ from God. An instance of this original imperfection of created beings may be seen in the natural inertia of bodies. (Theod. 20, 27-30, 153, 167, 377 sqq.) (my emphasis)
 


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Post 33

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
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Your error is considering bounds as imperfection.... it eliminates context, which, actually, eliminates reality.....

Post 34

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 11:50pmSanction this postReply
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GWL,

 But extension obviously implies limitation and divisibility.  Hence, though most entities we encounter in our universe are extended (exceptions might include mental concepts), we must say that God differs from these entities in that He exists as unextended substance. 
Unextended substance? THIS is what I speak of, GWL, when I speak of the incomprehensibility of God. Tell me, GWL, in 20 lines or less, what "unextended substance" is.

Can't do it?

Didn't think so.

Thanks anyway.

Ed


Post 35

Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 1:28amSanction this postReply
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Your error is considering bounds as imperfection.... it eliminates context, which, actually, eliminates reality.....
How does it eliminate context?  Or are you saying that everything must be placed in context, with the exception of the context itself? 
Unextended substance? THIS is what I speak of, GWL, when I speak of the incomprehensibility of God. Tell me, GWL, in 20 lines or less, what "unextended substance" is.
An unextented substance is obviously an immaterial substance. Now, whether or not immaterial substances exist is a subject of dispute, but we all know that immaterial things- like truths, numbers, etc.- exist.  Moreover, though I may have difficulty directly cognizing God's essence, this is not to say that God is incomprehensible.  (See Aquinas passage above). 

Also, some food for thought from Plato's Theaetetus
 
Socrates: Take a look round, then, and see that none of the uninitiated are listening. Now by the uninitiated I mean: the people who believe in nothing but what they can grasp in their hands, and who will not allow that action or generation or anything invisible can have real existence.

Theaetetus: Yes, indeed, Socrates, they are very hard and impenetrable men.

Socrates: Yes, my boy, outer barbarians.


Post 36

Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 6:11amSanction this postReply
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"Immaterial"...certainly the precise word to describe arbitrary assertions about the "supernatural" -- whatever that is.

Post 37

Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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"Immaterial"...certainly the precise word to describe arbitrary assertions about the "supernatural" -- whatever that is.
Either you unintentionally failed to read my earlier posts or you wallow in inexcusable ignorance or you are philosophically illiterate. 


Post 38

Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 12:38pmSanction this postReply
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     Hmmmm....so much for 'civil' discussion worth responding to. When such 'sensitivity' to questions result in insult-responses, the responses have no rational worth for continual following up on. Short of enjoying 'devil-advocate' exercises, why bother?

     Why others continue reading such 'debaters' (who obviously can't stand even an apparent hint of merely possible criticism), much less responding to, after such, I have no idea.

      I'll certainly read no more of this thread, much less anything by GWL. I suggest that others do the same.

LLAP
J:D


Post 39

Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Very true - tis the old Fields addage - "Never give a sucker an even break, nor smarten up a chump..."

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