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Post 60

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
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~ I'm unclear as to what atheism or theism has to do with 'cosmology;' metaphysics, yes; ontology, maybe; but cosmology? Cosmology has to do with the natural universe, not the idea of a supernatural one (unless a 'god'/creator is considered as fundamentally a part of the natural universe, but then this raises a paradoxical question about the very meaning of a universe-'creator'.)

~ Further, I'm not aware that ALL atheists are pure materialists to begin with; most O'ists do NOT identify consciousness (nor concepts, ergo, nor knowledge per se) as mere matter-in-motion. Recheck the appendices in Rand's IOE re 'mental entities'.

~ The springboard of this thread starts with overgeneralizations which inherently raise strawman questions.

LLAP
J:D


Post 61

Friday, May 18, 2007 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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John,

I think Brady's point is that you can't get to consciousness from a material basis in reality. Consciousness had to be there to begin with. He would deny that without God, human consciousness could arise evolutionarily from matter. It's just too different from matter to come about as the result of a certain configuration or integration of material elements. He doesn't agree with the idea of "emergent" properties. So, he would say that atheists are committed to materialism by virtue of their atheism, even if they claim not to be materialists. And as materialists, they cannot, therefore, justify the existence of knowledge, which is self-defeating, because atheists are claiming to have knowledge -- kind of like the contradiction of determinism that Objectivists endorse. At least, that's what I've been able to glean from our discussions. He can correct me if I am wrong. Of course, even if one grants that consciousness had to be there from the beginning, it doesn't follow that it has godlike properties. But he would presumably say that the world as it exists today had to be designed, because it's just too improbable that something this sophisticated could have arisen by chance.

- Bill

Post 62

Friday, May 18, 2007 - 9:16pmSanction this postReply
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Bill:

~Hey, ok. You figure that this is what he would say (I still don't see what this ostensible point has to do with 'cosmology!')
~So, you figure that his argument is merely a variation of  'The Watchmaker Argument' in terms of arguing from his impression of 'statistical (im)probabilities.'
~Wish he said that that concisely.

     My previous final point still stands: he needs to re-check Rand's ITOE appendices re 'mental entities' if he's going to argue that O'ists are (being 'atheistic' and all) pure materialists, which IS the basis of his strawman argument about 'knowledge.'

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 5/18, 9:17pm)


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