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Post 60

Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 11:10amSanction this postReply
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A book review and summary of the 9/11 criticism that I had posted here hasn't shown up here, isn't showing up. Whether or  not it's due to this forum's administrator... anyone interested can read it at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Owl_objectivists/message/285


Post 61

Monday, July 30, 2007 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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Have you seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGtOFudmHG8


Post 62

Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
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9-11, Six Years Later
By Paul Craig Roberts

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18353.htm

(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 9/15, 9:57am)


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Post 63

Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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Two facts evade the 9/11 claims of a setup.

1) The claim of the use of explosives do not match the actual footprint of the collaspe of the buildings.

This is evidenced in the fact that the NYC WTC is one of the few buildings of its day to start utilizing the central 'hollow' column/skeleton structure, where the weight of the building and its floors are flowing from not a central solid structure (Empire State Building), but rather along the edge of a skeleton steel structure. The fact that the main supports for the floors, as well, were on both the skeletal and 'hollow' support column (for utilities and elevators), makes it clear that when fuel weakens steel those support points will fail (and they did). Btw, here's the kick in the arse for your theory: steel doesn't have to melt to be weakened or to lose most of its rigor. 1000 to 2000 F is sufficient to make most formulated steel forms lose about 50 to 80% strength (9/11 commission reports reference this, btw). So, it wasn't much of a wonder that the floors gave way first before the skeletal structure, since the support points themselves were made of less steel thus have less chance of conducting heat away (btw, this referenced by me directly since I know a bit about heatsinks and what not for PCs, basically less material means more heat build up and less area for heat to 'wick' away).

2) The claim that a missile hit the Pentagon doesn't fit the facts.

First, understand that the Pentagon's own structure over the last decade of renovations (partly due to the foundation resettling in a tilted fashion [See CSPAN videos covering the revonation of the Pentagon, I believe circa 96 or 97]) has been hardened for potential attacks. That means, the glass in the windows are designed not to shatter into a million pieces, rather they break within a film structure and even those pieces that do break, break in such a manner that makes them more akin to gravel and not sharp shards (we use these in school buses and other commercial vehicles).

Second, a missile is specifically designed to destroy smaller objects in most cases, especially if we're talking about non-nuclear ordinance here. So, assuming this was a missile of a larger class than stinger (a tiny little shoulder launchable missile for surface to air or basically anti-aircraft deployment), it would need a platform to be launched from. In this case, you either have a big flatbed about 5km away or an aircraft in the air. Can you prove there were either at that time? Btw, for the aircraft part, I can refute you at all points, according to Airforce records (btw, Alex Jones references this on his radio show) they were doing mock air exercises at that time some many miles away. So, that means no aircraft of military kind were within range or utilizable by any conspirators to launch the missile at the Pentagon.

Conclusion: A conspiracy seems likely when one doesn't look at the facts, especially when one has little or no experience in the design or make of the NYC WTC nor the Pentagon. Nor any experience nor research material to backup the use of a missile or missiles (barrage). Ignorance, in this case, is no excuse for sloppy conclusions.

-- Brede

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Post 64

Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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World's Ugliest Dog



Post 65

Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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Is that the dog that was in the movie "Superstar" ?

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Post 66

Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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I love freezy pops




Post 67

Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 2:57pmSanction this postReply
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I didn't know there even was a movie called Superstar.

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Post 68

Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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I don't remember the dog, but I remember the dance scene.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 9/15, 6:38pm)


Post 69

Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 8:49pmSanction this postReply
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RotF,LmAo!

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Post 70

Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
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Come on, I can bomb a thread better than you guys!



Post 71

Saturday, October 6, 2007 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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Video:

 "Lt. Col. Bob Bowman Exposes 9/11 Fraud; Demands Government by the Constitution"

Were the 9/11Conspirators?

At a rally in Washington, D.C., in Lafayette Park, (just north of the White House), on Sept. 11, 2007, Lt. Col. Bob Bowman, USAF, (Retired) shared his views on the 9/11 tragedy. Lt. Col. Bowman flew 101 combat missions as a fighter pilot in Vietnam. He also holds a Ph.D. in Aeronautics & Nuclear Engineering from Caltech. He asked: "Who were the [9/11] conspirators?" He added: "We are the truth tellers [re: 9/11]!" Lt. Col. Bowman labeled 9/11 as "an inside job!" He also urged a truly "independent" investigation of 9/11, the "impeachment" of President George W. Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney and, if that doesn't work, then for the Pentagon officials to "arrest Bush and Cheney and court martial them for abuse of power in this country.
http://www.oregontruthalliance.org/?q=node/283


Post 72

Monday, February 18, 2008 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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When asked on another forum what REALLY bugged me (i.e., the most) about the way in which 9/11 was "handled" -- I said this ...

=================
Let me start by saying that I'd be willing to change my opinion upon the release of certain evidence. That said, I can only narrow my answer down to 3 heretofore-unresolved contradictions ...

(1) Pentagon "Plane"
Having heat so hot that it vaporized 12 tons of steel and titanium -- yet not hot enough to destroy the biometric identifiers (fingerprints? DNA?) which were supposedly used in order to I.D. the "dead" there.

(2) Ground Zero
Having heat so hot that it measured higher than 2000 degrees Fahrenheit -- yet science knowing, from the nature and identity of jet fuel, that it only burns to 1500 or so.


(3) Non-responsive NORAD (NORAD's failure to respond with fighters for 80 minutes).
Publically excusing themselves by saying the equivalent of "Who would've thought they'd do this!" -- yet having a War Game exercise of 18 other supposed plane-hijacks going on and tying up all of our fighter pilots ... during the actual hijacks
=========================

Post 73

Monday, February 18, 2008 - 7:09pmSanction this postReply
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The kind of evidence that would overturn (1) for me would be for the top-dogs to fess-up and say that they were lying about finding biometric (identifying) evidence.

The kind of evidence that would overturn (2) for me would be for the top-dogs to fess-up and say that there was actually a more-extensive Muslim plot that got under our national security radar -- and that Islamo-fanatics, besides jacking 4 planes, managed to plant thermate and/or thermite in towers 1,2, and 7.


The kind of evidence that would overturn (3) for me would be for the top-dogs to fess-up and say that there was actually a more-extensive Muslim plot that got under our national security radar -- and that Islamo-fanatics, besides jacking 4 planes, and besides planting thermate and/or thermite in towers 1,2, and 7; also managed to get themselves privy to when we'd be running live-fly, hijack, War Game drills (effectively keeping our 1st-response fighters on the ground in confusion).

This last bit of evidence would be especially appealing if the rumors are true that both London and Madrid were running facsimile War Game drills during their respective atrocities.

Ed

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Post 74

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 3:25amSanction this postReply
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Just a simple comparison regarding #2 for you to ponder, Ed.

5000 years ago, it was possible for humans to build kilns from the simplest of materials, using only wood and stone.  Now, dry wood  burns at much less than 2000 degrees, but the pots fired in those kilns were brought to 2000 in order to be fired. How was this possible?

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 2/19, 3:26am)


Post 75

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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Teresa:

It is believed that the earliest pottery wares were hand-built and fired in bonfires. Firing times were short but the peak-temperatures achieved in the fire could be high, perhaps in the region of 900 degrees Celsius, and were reached very quickly.

Pottery history

Perhaps with a brick-like enclosure and bellows the temperature could be raised significantly higher than a mere bonfire.

For what it's worth.

Sam
 


Post 76

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Teresa.

I wasn't aware of such things (kilns). I looked into it and discovered good verification of your claims:

=================
Summer session students in a Kiln Design and Construction class excavated the ground and stacked fire brick to form a long tunnel shape similar to an ancient Chinese kiln. Designed with a single chamber, the teardrop-shaped kiln is built into a hillside with the firebox at the base.

The wood used as fuel, the slope of the hill, the shape of the kiln and the placement of the firebox are all key elements which enable this type of kiln to reach temperatures of more than 2400 degrees Fahrenheit, just as they did over 3,000 years ago.
=================
From:
http://www.uaf.edu/news/featured/04/kiln/

This evidence demonstrates that mere wood-burning could get the heat up to the supposed supra-2000 degrees F which was reported. However, more evidence in this same article seems to contradict the slow rate of heat removal from Ground Zero -- where the 2000+ degrees was measurable for 5-6 weeks ...

================
Cooling the kiln enough to remove the pots typically takes a couple of days, Brashear says.
================

So, on the one hand, you've answered how temp's can get so high but, on the other hand, this doesn't explain Ground Zero (which held the high temp's for weeks).

Curious question:
Is there anyone here who thinks my recent behavior in this thread is irrational? If so, would you let me know?

Ed

Post 77

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:04amSanction this postReply
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Sam,

For the U.S. "people" (and I'm, here, being deliberately facetious), the 900 degrees C reached in huge bonfires -- is about 1700 degrees F.

Ed

Post 78

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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True, Ed - but that is open burning...... when the heat is in an enclosure where the enclosure itself is also heated, then there is a feedback which raises the temperature much higher.......

Post 79

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

The kinetic energy of thousands of tons of mass falling to the ground is not lost, much of it is converted to heat. The temperature of an object is just a measure of the kinetic energy of the molecules in random motion. Then you have a large debris pile which will contain the heat for a long time.

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