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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 9:03amSanction this postReply
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I think one of my departures from Objectivism (or Objectivists, really) is my shift toward balancing goals rather than ordering them. I still accept a hierarchical value structure, but I view them as more of a flexible web than a stringent chain.

Facts

California is considering capping the number of prisoners in its state prisons. On the one hand, this might encourage would be criminals to commit crimes, particularly when we're close to the cap. It might further discourage imprisoned convicts from "habilitating" if they think they might get released early in order to "make room" for other convicts. On the other hand, it might encourage the government to streamline its prison system and run the darn thing more efficiently.

Application

So I'm not sure how to balance these competing interests, or even how to order them ala Objectivism. But at the end of the day, California either has a prison population cap, or it doesn't.

I'm curious as to what people think of this.

Jordan

P.S. I wrote this in decent because of the "View" section of this post. However, it's really a Q&A.


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Post 1

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
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California has to ask itself why it has so many people in prison, otherwise it is just stirring the garbage around, not cleaning it up.  I think the #1 reason would be the "war on drugs" - as it creates an entire culture of criminality by undermining the rule of law.  There are other factors, but that one is one of the worst.  Of course, the other solution is to kill the worst offenders until the prison population drops.  This would tend to discourage people from committing crimes a tad more and help solve the problem, but I dount they have the stomach for that.

Post 2

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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Ahh - truly "to the gas chambers we go..."......[ or whatever they're using now }

Post 3

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, rather than capping the prison population, why not commute the sentences of all non-violent offenders? Nationally, well over 30% of inmates are imprisoned for victimless crimes. This may not mean that a lot of them don't deserve to be in prison on real charges. But we need to repeal the drug laws and to release all non-violent drug law offenders.

[Please refer to Bob's more authoritative statistics below]

Ted

PS, Jordan, it's dissent, not decent. You might have a decent chance of winning a large settlement if you sue whoever it was who "taught" you spelling.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/12, 6:44pm)


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Post 4

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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As of 2003 (last time fed figures were updated online), 27.5% of state prison inmates were behind bars due to drug offenses.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/corrtyptab.htm

The vast majority of that number are there, not for smoking a joint or private consumption, but for sale, manufacturing, and trafficking. In other words, they are the pros in the drug culture.

Should any of that be illegal? No, of course not. But let's remember that we're not necessarily dealing with choir boys, either.

We'd better put things in perspective. It's quite hard to get into a state prison. You usually really have to work at it, for years, because the system gives you endless and repeated "second chances." And the rap sheets of the vast number of inmates, including drug criminals, contain a variety of crimes, many serious by any measure. Most chronic criminals aren't specialists; they're generalists who respond to situational opportunities. They do violent crime, property crime, AND victimless "crime." Often, cops charge violent or property criminals with drug crimes or "morals" offenses simply because they may not have quite enough on the guys to make more serious charges stick.

Remember Al Capone, a killer and thug who made his money from bootleg liquor and was brought down for income-tax evasion! Richard Allen Davis, the predator who killed little Polly Klaas, had a rap sheet that included everything from animal torturing, petty theft, kidnappings, carjackings, selling dope, burglary, violent assaults on women, probation violations, weapons violations -- you name it. If a D.A. and judge, seeing that rap sheet, had nailed the bastard for spitting on the sidewalk, I would've shed no tears, because a beautiful little girl might still be alive. Or check the rap sheets of the West Virginia low-lifes who were arrested this week for torturing that black girl.

Ted has noted that Rudi Giuliani cleaned up the streets of NYC. Do you know how? His police chief, Bratton, went after petty criminals -- vandals, subway turnstile-jumpers, "squeegie" men, disruptive vagrants. Guess what? When they picked up those people, they found that many of them were parole and probation violators who'd been convicted of serious crimes, or who had outstanding warrants for nasty stuff. By rounding up "the usual suspects" for "petty" crime, they actually found and took a huge number of serious criminals off the streets. And the crime rate plunged.

When I did an investigative piece on homelessness for Reader's Digest, I ran into people living in shanties along the river and in homeless shelters in Nashville. They panhandled at local tourist hotels for cash, dealt pot. Victimless stuff, right? I asked what they did when they didn't get enough money. They shoplifted, said my "homeless" informant. That guy had just been recently paroled from state prison after serving a stretch for murder. "I had to cap a man," he chuckled.

So, no, there are very few state prison inmates for whom I shed tears. The alleged "first-time victimless-crime offenders" who are supposed to be clogging the system are largely mythical creatures. Sure, there is a minority who have been railroaded, or who otherwise shouldn't be there. But the overwhelming majority in state joints should be.

Only in the (much smaller) federal prison system do you find relatively high percentages of people who are "white-collar" criminals, often sent up for tax evasion, drug crimes, etc.

The moral: Repealing victimless-crime laws -- which of course we SHOULD do -- isn't going to have as huge an impact on prison populations as most libertarians and liberals like to think. We can easily fill the cells they depart from the ranks of several MILLION probationers and parolees who committed violent and property crimes, but who are now roaming the streets.

Post 5

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Damn my spelling errors! I'll keep "decent" in there so people understand your post.

To all,

I wonder how much of the Cal State prison population is serving due to the "3 strikes" law. Anyone know?

Jordan

Post 6

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
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The Benefit is not Worth the Cost.

Having lived in some of the cheapest neighborhoods on NYC, I can aver that there are still many people who do serve time for drug crimes who are not violent criminals otherwise, and much violence committed by some drug offenders. But Bob's caveat is true, and I mentioned it in my first post - just because they got you on a bad charge doesn't mean you are otherwise guiltless. Even then, no principled person wants to arrest thugs on trumped-up charges. The benefit is not worth the cost.

Perhaps the worst aspects of the drug laws are how they corrupt the police - in some NYC precincts in the nineties the almost the entire force was on the take - and the sheer cost is obscene. I have heard estimates that mere drug enforcement costs $80 - $100 billion a year. A manned mission to Mars could be had for that sum.

Jordan, I appreciate you leaving that misspelling in, it's quite dissent of you. I am certainly not error free myself - and spell check would not have helped in this case.

Ted

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Post 7

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, we can definitely agree that the costs of prohibition are obscene, and that they include the moral cost of encouraging corruption within the legal system. "Victimless crimes" should be repealed, just as I stated in my book.

My narrower point here was that, regarding prison overcrowding, repeal of victimless crimes won't make much of a dent -- and in fact, it shouldn't. There are many, many bad actors out in society right now, convicted criminals who vastly outnumber the inmates serving sentences for victimless crimes. They should be behind bars; but they are being "managed" (press the laugh-track button here) on the streets -- on parole, on probation, in halfway houses and work-release programs, on prison "furloughs," and in a host of other "alternatives to incarceration."

During my days reporting on criminal justice issues, I came across innumerable examples of dangerous predators being "diverted" into such "community corrections" settings, with horrific consequences. A tip: Anytime you read about a particularly grisly crime, follow up to try to find out the criminal history of the arrested perpetrator(s). Almost invariably, you'll discover someone who had been arrested and convicted numerous times previously, but who was put into the legal system's own version of a trash recycling program, and then dumped repeatedly right back onto the streets. The resulting carnage has been staggering.

Again, the issue here is "prison overcrowding," and the claim that repealing "victimless crimes" could end the problem. But that's just not true. Any cells we free up by jettisoning drug offenders, prostitutes, and the like could easily be filled from the ranks of the convicted predators now freely roaming our communities. For example, just consider the obscenity of all the "sex-offender registries," which exist precisely because so many convicted rapists and child molesters are being secretly "reintegrated" into local neighborhoods, without the public being notified. Just tossing these thousands upon thousands of creeps back into the slammer where they belong would easily fill all the cells now occupied by those incarcerated for victimless crimes.

I've written a lot about the pernicious effects of these "alternatives to incarceration." When you hear the words "prison population cap," ask yourself: Since when do we place a "cap" on justice?

--Robert

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 8:54pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, Bob, if they're guilty of actual crimes, I'm all for overcrowded prisons!

Ted

Post 9

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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I knew you would be, Ted. No admirer of Giuliana's approach to crime could be otherwise. We're on the same wavelength.

Oh, incidentally -- not meaning to be petty, but only because more and more are referring to me as "Bob" here: At my request, most people have been calling me "Robert" for over a decade now. No big deal, but that's my preference. Thanks.

Post 10

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 10:11pmSanction this postReply
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How, Robert, would you handle the issue of inmates already incarcerated solely on drug charges? I would think a general commutation for all convicts with no other violent convictions would make sense. Continuing to house non-violent "offenders" at public expense would seem an affront to liberty and economy. I would not issue a pardon or a general commutation for all prisoners. Those who want a pardon might apply. Or do you think a pardon would be appropriate? My reason for not issuing a pardon would be to keep the conviction on their records in case of recidivism.

Also, let me emphasize that I do have mixed feelings about Giuliani even in his crime-fighting style. I didn't mind his advocacy of the no broken windows theory. But as I said, he was much to quick to defend apparent police brutality - as, for instance, when he illegally released the coroner's report that an innocent bartender who was killed by undercover cops when he refused to help them purchase crack and got in a shoving match with someone he did not know was a cop had marijuana in his blood, as if that justified summary execution. If the presumption of civilian innocence has any meaning, then one cannot also presume the "innocence" of the cops when they overstep their bounds and harm or kill unconvicted citizens.

My concerns with him as president are simply less because I don't believe that the presumption of innocence standard applies to foreign aggressors, so I don't mind him cracking heads based on probable cause with foreign miscreants.

Except for his absurd religious pandering, I could see myself supporting Gingrich over Giuliani - except that I don't think he could beat Hillary in the general election as handily as I expect Giuliani to do.

Finally, has anyone heard of how Giuliani polls in New York State against Hillary?

Ted Keer

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Post 11

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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Quinnpiac University polls : 50 % Republicans for Giuliani, 59%Dems. for Hillary
June 20th 2007: 29% Giuliani, 43% Hillary

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 9/13, 3:51pm)


Post 12

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Gigi

I am surprised by those figures, but I don't see Hillary's numbers going above 43%. Of course, I was surprised by her landslide senate victory here, I had expected her to win by a small margin. I hope the undecided votes are Republicans for other candidates. In any case, nationally, I expect him to win in the Electoral College handily.

Ted

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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 Your welcome Ted : )

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Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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In my local area, there are a number of permanently resident homeless, some of whom I have seen for eight years or more and know by first names.  They have lived on the street, sleeping behind dumpsters or whereever, pushing shopping carts around with all their belongings, living off food from charity or trash, medical/dental from various free clinics, etc.

More recently, drugs - especially mariuana, prescription pain medicine and meth - have begun occupying a larger piece of the picture.  Small time drug dealing enables them to get the drugs for their own use, making their somewhat precarious and often miserable existence more palatable, drugs which otherwise they could never afford.  A few of them have also taken up part time hooking for extra cash.

Periodically they get busted.  I think that the cops probably nail one of them, and then he or she rats on the others in a plea bargain, and so a handful of them disappear for a month or three and then reappear and usually go right back into business.

One sad case is a young woman who has a harelip and may be slightly retarded.  Physically, were it not for the facial deformity, she would be quite beautiful - tall, blond, athletic.  Her character is not evil, either.  I have seen enough of her to know that she is not malicious or a thief, and after her most recent stint in jail she actually found a job and is struggling to keep that, still living on the street and commuting to work via bicycle.  She has the option to go home to her parents but there is something not right going on there, and she told me that she preferred the independence, as she was digging through the trash one day.

My take is that those people who are dangerous should be locked up or otherwise separated from the rest of us.  Those who cause others losses by violating their rights should pay for them, as in full compensation for their losses.  I don't see any role whatsoever for "punishment" and I doubt that the dangerous criminals are the majority of the prison population.  The police go after the easy targets, like the local street people.


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