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Post 0

Friday, April 4, 2008 - 12:32amSanction this postReply
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We are like wicked Rome only in superficial ways.

The U.S. keeps most of its people working and we do not plunder the rest of the world. In that way we are very unlike the Romans either in their republican phase or in their later imperial phase.

Bob Kolker


Post 1

Friday, April 4, 2008 - 5:10amSanction this postReply
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Bob,

Do you think that most of the people will simply continue working in this country throughout very steep rises in statism, such as the steep rise noted under the NeoCon reformer, GW Bush?

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/04, 5:11am)


Post 2

Friday, April 4, 2008 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Yes. They are used to it and they accept it as normal.

Unfortunate but true.

Most of what we consume is produced at home, still. It is not taken as loot from other countries.

We are a long way from Bread and Circuses.

Bob Kolker


Post 3

Saturday, April 5, 2008 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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ONE
The United States has "some" military presence in 120 nations.
The FBI has field offices in the capitals of 60 different nations including: Brasilia, Lagos, Copenhagen, Tallinn, Beijing and Seoul.
http://www.fbi.gov/contact/legat/legat.htm

TWO
Historical Divorce Rates for Iowa
1940 - 4,776 - 1.9 per thousand population
1950 - 5,404 - 2.1 per thousand population
1960 - 4,559 - 1.7 per thousand population
1970 - 7,188 - 2.5 per thousand population
1980 - 11,854 - 4.1 per thousand population
1990 - 10,913 - 3.9 per thousand population
1995 - 10,545 - 3.7 per thousand population
1996 - 10,347 - 3.5 per thousand population
1997 - 9,712 - 3.4 per thousand population
1998 - 9,880 - 3.5 per thousand population
http://www.divorcereform.org/iowa.html
"The latest U.S. annual per capita divorce rate for a calendar year is also 0.36% -- stated as 3.6 per 1,000 population --  for 2006."
http://familylaw.typepad.com/stats/2007/05/latest_us_divor.html

THREE
Sort of a pot-kettle thing, but the Christian Answers website identifies these as the "Top Ten Cults" in America today.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormonism).
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (Jehovah's Witnesses).
The Church of Scientology.
The Twelve Tribes.
The Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity (Unification Church).
The International Churches of Christ (Boston Movement).
The Family (Children of God).
Christian Identity Movement (Aryan Nations, Christian Identity Church, Klu Klux Klan, etc.).
The Nation of Islam (Black Muslims).
United Pentecostal Church (UPC).
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-top10cults.html

USA Today poll: Poll: One-third believe in ghosts, UFOs
ESPN Poll results: 1 in 5 fans try to improve luck for favorite team


FOUR
New York Times
"Gingrich Sees Echo of Ancient Rome in America Today "
By FRANK BRUNI Published: May 3, 1998
Capping a week of strongly worded, intensely partisan jabs at President Clinton, Speaker Newt Gingrich used a weekend appearance in this Republican stronghold to invoke comparisons between Mr. Clinton's actions in office and the forces that led the Roman republic toward ruin.

"Drawing Parallels Between Ancient Rome and the U.S. Today"
Morning Edition, November 22, 2006
In the second part of our series examining our perceptions of history, novelist Robert Harris speaks with Steve Inskeep about how the history of Rome is reflected in our modern-day world. Harris sees parallels between the time of Rome's transition from republican to imperial rule and the challenges the U.S. faces now...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6523758

FIVE
About a year ago, I had a one semester class in History of China.
People are people.
You get enough of them all together in one place, and they all act pretty much alike.

"The old man made soothing noises and himself poured me some more beer.  "You tell the story well, and we are listening.  But it is clear that the elders of your country have never told you what the story really means.  No, don't interrupt!  We believe you when you say your marriage customs are different, or your clothes and weapons.  but people are the same everywhere; therefore, there are always witches and it is we, the elders, who know how witches work.  We told you it was the great chief who wished to kill Hamlet, and now your own words have proved us right.  Who were Ophelia's male relatives?" "

"Shakespeare in the Bush" by Laura Bohannon from Conformity and Conflict: Readings in Cultural Anthropology, eds. James P. Spradley and David W. McCurdy Boston: Little Brown and Company. 1971
(By the way these people, the Tiv of Nigeria, do not believe in ghosts.  However, they do believe that  witch can reanimate a corpse to create a zombi.)


Post 4

Saturday, April 5, 2008 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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The U.S.A. has neither the heart nor the stomach for Empire.

Unfortunately, Americans want to be loved. What we should want is to be feared.

Bob Kolker


Post 5

Saturday, April 5, 2008 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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Now that's why you are at home here (in Dissent), Bob.

Ed
[as the fear-mongering, would-be baby-killer which you have professed yourself to be]


Post 6

Saturday, April 5, 2008 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
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Reply to post 4.

Why be feared? Easy. So the thugs and bullies of the world don't start trouble with us.

Self defense starts -before- an attack, not after.

Bob Kolker

(Edited by Robert J. Kolker on 4/05, 3:25pm)


Post 7

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 5:31amSanction this postReply
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Now that's why you are at home here (in Dissent), Bob.

Ed
[as the fear-mongering, would-be baby-killer which you have professed yourself to be]
-------------------------------------------------------------

Only enemy babies and collaterals. For the most part I like kids. Children should not be the target, neither should their presence deter an attack.

I believe in killing my enemies. If my enemy's children are caught in the cross fire, that is my enemy's fault, not mine.

Unfortunately, the powers that be in the U.S. have not the heart nor the stomach for real slaughter. If it is done, it is done reluctantly. The Romans on the other hand, kicked ass and made the chariots run on time along their excellent roads. The Romans in their prime were unbeatable. They made a desolation and called it peace. My kind of folks. The Romans at their worst lasted longer than we will at our
best. Reading the history of Rome helps me get in touch with my Inner Fascist. Unfortunately we are NOT like the Romans, and that is to our detriment. We want to be loved.


Bob Kolker

The only difference between peace and war is where we place our bombs --- Gen. Curtis LeMay.

The Germans have sown the wind, and in due course they will reap the whirlwind --- Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris.

My heroes.


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Post 8

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 5:37amSanction this postReply
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Rome had prettier architecture, and its politicians were somewhat less corrupt.


In all seriousness, I think we're most like Rome was late in its Republican days.  We just haven't had our Julius Caesar yet.


 


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Post 9

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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I would think we would want to be respected, rather than feared.  Many people fear a rabid dog that snarls and snaps at them.  Some people will cower in terror of said animal.  Others, will shoot the dog.

Now, say you have the same dog, who sits stoic on the front stoop.  You can see in it's eyes that it has no qualms about defending it's property, but, as long as you stay a safe distance, it is quite content to let you on your way.  But, you recognize and respect it's strength and determination to defend itself.


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Post 10

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Bark softly and carry a big sic.

Bob Kolker


Post 11

Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 1:42amSanction this postReply
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Summer, have you watched I, Claudius? I think we've had an imperial presidency since Teddy Roosevelt, if not Lincoln. If respect for the constitution is the mark of republicanism then we are far past that era. I can see TR as Caesar, FDR as Augustus, Johnson & Nixon as Tiberiuses. Carter and the Bushes as Claudiuses. Clinton as Nero. with Caliguline tendencies. When the Senators start stabbing presidents it may be a good thing.

Post 12

Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 1:01pmSanction this postReply
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When the Senators start stabbing presidents it may be a good thing.

 

I think it would be good if they just got to caning again.... ;-)


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Post 13

Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
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Caning, Robert, is for other Senators, and the only precedent we have is of ill repute. Caesar was stabbed in the Senate. Caligula was stabbed in the alley. Caracalla was stabbed in the groin. I was stabbed in the Bronx. But then again, I'm not a chief executive.

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Post 14

Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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I can see TR as Caesar


Teddy as Caesar???   TR was a republic-loving conservative, unlike Caesar who wanted to dissolve the Senate (eventually) and run the whole show himself.  And he may well have gotten his wish, had Casca and his band of merry, dagger-wielding cohorts not taken care of him.  He was wildly popular among the Roman people, in no small part due to how much of his own $$$ he "gave" to the poor (whose numbers were increasing steadily at that time).

 I would have said FDR as GJC,  Clinton as Tiberius with Caliguline tendencies and Carter as Nero.   I'm not sure where I'd place Bush Sr or Jr.  Did Rome have court jesters?


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Post 15

Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 5:45pmSanction this postReply
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Summer, have you watched I, Claudius?

No, I haven't.  But I have seen both History of the World, Part I and A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forvm, so I'm pretty much an expert on ancient Rome.

;o)


Post 16

Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 6:57pmSanction this postReply
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Bully! (or, How Teddy Roosevelt Killed the Elephant)

Summer, when I was a child named Ted, I thought as a child. Then I grew up and learned what a bad precedent my namesake Theodore Roosevelt was. As you can see from below, TR virtually invented "Big Government."

I have copied and condensed the following without ellipsis directly from wikipedia. The bracketed comments are mine.

Roosevelt asked Congress to curb the power of trusts "within reasonable limits." They did not act but Roosevelt did, issuing 44 lawsuits against major corporations; he was called the "trust-buster".

Roosevelt believed: "The Government must in increasing degree supervise and regulate the workings of the railways. Such supervision is the only alternative to an increase of the present evils on the one hand or a still more radical policy on the other."

His biggest success was the Hepburn Act of 1906. The Act gave the ICC (Interstate Commerce Commission) the power to replace existing rates with "just-and-reasonable" maximum rates, with the ICC to define what was just and reasonable. The act made ICC orders binding; that is, the railroads had to either obey or contest the ICC orders in federal court.

In response to public clamor (and Upton Sinclair's book The Jungle), Roosevelt pushed Congress to pass the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, as well as the Meat Inspection Act of 1906.

Roosevelt set aside more land for national parks and nature preserves than all of his predecessors combined, 194 million acres (785,000 km˛). In 1907, with Congress about to block him, [because he was acting by fiat, not law] Roosevelt hurried to designate 16 million acres (65,000 km˛) of new national forests.

The 1906 passage of the Antiquities Act gave him a tool for creating national monuments by presidential proclamation, without requiring Congressional approval for each monument on an item-by-item basis. Roosevelt, however, applied a typically broad interpretation to the Act, and the first national monument he proclaimed, Devils Tower National Monument in Wyoming, was preserved for reasons tied more to geology than archaeology.

Roosevelt's conservationism caused him to forbid having a Christmas tree in the White House. He was reportedly upset when he found a small tree his son had been hiding.

Despite the ad hoc [unconstitutional] nature of the force deployed by Roosevelt in the Phillipines, the Army was able to end the insurgency by 1902.

According to the treaty, in 1902, the U.S. was to buy out the equipment and excavations from France, which had been attempting to build a canal since 1881. While the Colombian negotiating team had signed the treaty, ratification by the Colombian Senate became problematic. Roosevelt decided in 1903 to support Panamanian separation from Colombia. On November 3, the Republic of Panama was created, with its constitution written in advance by the United States.

Roosevelt dramatically increased the size of the navy, forming the Great White Fleet, which toured the world in 1907 to impress the Japanese. When the fleet sailed into Yokohama, Japan, the Japanese went to extraordinary lengths to show that their country desired peace with the US. Thousands of Japanese school children waved American flags, purchased by the government, as they greeted the Navy brass coming ashore. Roosevelt said to the officers of the Fleet, "Other nations may do what you have done, but they'll have to follow you." This parting act of grand strategy by Roosevelt greatly expanded the respect for, as well as the role of, the United States in the international arena. However, the visit of the fleet to Tokyo also encouraged Japanese militarists. They had always argued for an even more aggressive Japanese naval expansion program, and the recent show of force convinced enough of their countrymen they were right. In a real sense, this set in motion the chain of events leading to the U.S. and Japan confronting each other 30 years later.

Roosevelt took Cabinet members and friends on long, fast-paced hikes, boxed in the state rooms of the White House, romped with his children, and read voraciously. In 1908, he was permanently blinded in his left eye during one of his boxing bouts, but this injury was kept from the public at the time.

During his presidency, Roosevelt tried to advance the cause of simplified spelling. He forced the federal government to adopt the system, sending an order to the Public Printer to use the system in all public federal documents. The order was obeyed, and among the documents thus printed was the President's special message regarding the Panama Canal. The reform annoyed the public, forcing him to rescind the order. [The Constitution gives the President the power to rewrite the English language by directive?]

Roosevelt's oldest daughter, Alice said of him that he always wanted to be "the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.

Roosevelt and Edith also had the entire White House renovated and restored to the federal style, tearing out the Victorian furnishings and details (including Tiffany windows) that had been installed over the previous three decades.

In 1902, in response to the assassination of President William McKinley on September 6, 1901, Roosevelt became the first president to be under constant Secret Service protection. [Okay, but Praetorian Guard anyone, if not Clinton's future Pimps?]

All told, Roosevelt and his companions killed or trapped over 11,397 animals. Although the safari was conducted in the name of science, interaction with renowned professional hunters and land owning families made the safari as much a political and social event, as a hunting excursion.

Roosevelt wrote a detailed account of the adventure in the book "African Game Trails", where he describes the excitement of the chase, the people he met, and the flora and fauna he collected in the name of science. [Caesar too wrote a history.]

The night of the 1904 election, after his victory was clear, Roosevelt promised not to run again in 1908. He later regretted that promise, as it compelled him to leave the White House at the age of only fifty, at the height of his popularity. [Roosevelt was the first President to try to stand for three terms. Compare this to Julius Caesar's self-aggrandizement.] Roosevelt certified William Howard Taft to be a genuine "progressive" in 1908, when Roosevelt pushed through the nomination of his Secretary of War for the Presidency. Taft had a different progressivism, one that stressed the rule of law [!] and preferred that judges rather than administrators or politicians make the basic decisions about fairness.

When Roosevelt realized that lowering the tariff would risk severe tensions inside the Republican Party—pitting producers (manufacturers and farmers) against merchants and consumers—he stopped talking about the issue. Unlike Roosevelt, Taft never attacked business or businessmen in his rhetoric. The left wing of the Republican Party began agitating against Taft. Roosevelt split the party in 1912, allowing Wilson, our worst president of the 20th Century save Carter, to win.]

On January 16, 2001, President Bill Clinton awarded Theodore Roosevelt the Medal of Honor posthumously for his charge up San Juan Hill, Cuba, during the Spanish-American War. [And for preparing the secret service for him?]

Overall, historians credit Roosevelt for changing the nation's political system by permanently placing the presidency at center stage and making character as important as the issues. [I.e., charisma more important than principle.] His notable accomplishments include trust-busting and conservationism. However, he has been criticized for his interventionist and imperialist approach to nations he considered "uncivilized". Even so, history and legend have been kind to him. [Just as Caesar and Napoleon are admired today.]

His friend, historian Henry Adams, proclaimed, "Roosevelt, more than any other living man ....showed the singular primitive quality that belongs to ultimate matter — the quality that mediaeval theology assigned to God — he was pure act."

Roosevelt was played by Robin Williams in the box office hit Night at the Museum (2006) and its upcoming sequel. [That says it all.]


I will grant that Roosevelt was a mixed bag. But he was absolutely not a conservative, nor was he a (small case) rule-of-law republican. He governed by directive. He was a bully in person and in government. He was a militarist for the "grandeur" of it. He is perhaps the closest we have had to a fascist as president.



Post 17

Friday, May 30, 2008 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
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Keer:

I will grant that Roosevelt was a mixed bag. But he was absolutely not a conservative, nor was he a (small case) rule-of-law republican. He governed by directive. He was a bully in person and in government. He was a militarist for the "grandeur" of it. He is perhaps the closest we have had to a fascist as president.

Me:

FDR was more of a fascist than Teddy. But we did get the Panama Canal from Teddy's policies.

A man, a plan, a canal, Panama!

The Canal was built using private money, delivered on time and with no major scandals. In addition the work lead to the eradication of yellow fever and malaria. Before a foot was dug, the bogs were sprayed with oil to kill the mosquito larvae.

The Romans on the other hand looted what they could not produce. OTOH, the Romans did perfect the delivery of good water to population centers and the removal of human waste. This accomplishment was not equaled until the late 19-th century in Europe.

Whenever you flush, have a good recollection of the Glory That Was Rome and the ingenuity of John Crapper (Ionus Fecumae)

Bob Kolker



(Edited by Robert J. Kolker on 5/30, 8:16am)

(Edited by Robert J. Kolker on 5/30, 12:01pm)


Post 18

Friday, May 30, 2008 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
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Nero was as degenerate and as mad as Caligula. Nero stomped his wife to death, because she ticked him off. Jimmy Carter would never stomp anyone to death. On the other hand, Jimmy, did fiddle 444 days, while our people rotted in Iranian prisons.

There is a limit to how far we can carry historical analogies. Strictly speaking, history never repeats itself.

Bob Kolker


Post 19

Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
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The Baths of Caracalla

Well, of course historical analogies are the least accurate, since men are most variable. And I am well aware of Nero, but his first five years or rule are generally praised. My main point is that Teddy was not the saint that some think he is, far from it. He was the first to rule by directive, I remember my history teacher saying, but cannot document that Teddy said something along the lines of "constitution shmonstitution."

The FDA, the precursor of the FTC, setting aside public land and using the military without congressional approval, militarism for the sake of personal pride, "reform" as an outlet for personal whims, anti-trust, regulation of private business, a high-tariff policy - the man was a statist, a bully and as much of a tyrant as he could get away with. Tyrants often build great public works. The Baths of Caracalla, for example. They are tyrants nonetheless. Again, I can't say that I would condemn or regret his every act. But if you want to see what a good Objectivist President would be like, look up Grover Cleveland. That was a man.

As for FDR, I'd call him a socialist and TR a fascist, but that's quibbling.

Oh, and good point about the watercloset.

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