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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 8:53pmSanction this postReply
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I thought about putting this in the Wikipedia thread, but decided it was too much more abstract in its aim.
As we all know, Rand spoke of her intellectual debt to Aristotle; if she named anyone else in the same relation to her thought, I'm not aware of it. I have seen people write about how Objectivism seems to be influenced by Nietzche, Hegel, and a few others, but it was always in an accusatory manner, which is suspect.
I, myself, do not know what, exactly, is original in Objectivism. I don't know because I don't know enough of philosophy, and because I don't what is supposed to be original in Objectivism.
If anyone can help me with this, not with your impression of what is or isn't original, but with authoritative knowledge, I'd be grateful. I believe that her theory of abstraction as omitting measurements is original. Also, her integration of this whole system, from metaphysics through politics and aesthetics, is original. That integration would be original if each branch were taken from a different philosopher, and her contribution were only showing how they were interrelated (I said, WOULD.)
Part of my reluctance to get involved with the Wikipedia effort is being able to assert and defend Rand and Objectivism in this way. I have read and studied philosophy for decades, both in coursework and for my own purposes. I have come across many things that I first knew about from Objectivism, and had naively assumed were original to Objectivism.
I would like to emphasize that it was naive to assume that at least some of these things were original to Objectivism, I am not saying they were claimed to be original.
It may be that this is all written out or discussed somewhere, and I'd be grateful for a heads-up to that. I read on an older post by Tibor that he regarded Rand's theory of concept-formation as original. So that is one point settled.
I think getting this straight will make projects such as the Wikipedia entries much, much easier, and will make all kinds of proselytizing more effective.


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Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 1:17amSanction this postReply
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I don't have an extensive background in philosophy either, but my to my limited understanding objectivism seems to be the only system that advocates the primacy of existence. Most other advocates of egoism seem to be predatory as well, which objectivism isn't. (I'm thinking of Nietzche there.)

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Post 2

Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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Hi Mindy,

 

Great post.

 

Rand said somewhere that she thought her most important contribution was connecting that capitalism was morally good.

 

Aristotle did make the comment that fiction was superior to history because it showed how things ought to be. Parenthetically, there is lots of debate about this interpretation. I have just packed up my books, but in my reading of Art and Beauty: Selected Readings in Aesthetics from Plato to Heidegger, I understood Aristotle’s comments to mean just that.

 

Rand ran her aesthetics along those lines--she connected that the nature of art supports, inspires, and confirms our human ability to imagine and solve problems that take us far into the future--space travel, solving complex medical problems, complex buildings, etc. That art has the capacity to concretize the furthest reaches of human scope.

 

I am sure there are some experts in their fields here, that also know something their fields’ history, that may be able to remark on Rand's contributions to ideas.

 

Michael

(Edited by Newberry on 1/22, 11:22am)


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Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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George Smith discusses this in his book, Ayn Rand and other Heresies. I'll see if I can dig it up and share some tidbits.

Jordan

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 1:04pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Michael. That one I'll put down to begin researching. I've read the relevant Aristotle myself, so I'm familiar with that.

Jordan,
That will be useful. I don't know George Smith. I assume he isn't entirely a nutter? No matter, if he gives his arguments and references. Thanks.


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Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 2:31pmSanction this postReply
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Smith is better known for his book, "Atheism: The Case Against God."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._Smith

Jordan

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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Going further afield from my expertise, philosopher, David Kelley has written Evidence of the Senses. Among other things, it solves the age old problem about if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound? I believe David took objectivism further into some key philosophical premises, the first to thoroughly evaluate them from an objectivist view point.  Again, this is not my field so I welcome any correction.

David also wrote, A Life of One’s Own, an objectivist/philological in-depth analysis of our Social Security system. He traces the philosophical and historical roots, and its strategic political implementation. But this would be a kind of application of  in what manner capitalism is a moral political system representing individual rights, which Rand already laid out.

I would guess that philosopher,  Tibor Machan, has also made several unique contributions to philosophy from an Objectivist perspective, but I am speculating because I am not familiar with his books. (I am sure if you ask him he would gladly give you links to such information.)

Philosopher, Stephen Hicks, has done a stellar, systematic  critique of Postmodern thought, in his, extremely readable, Explaining Postmodernism, in its 7th or 8th printing.

I believe that Dr. Nathaniel Branden is a pioneer in the psychology of self-esteem, though I don’t know the history of psychology.

I have made some very specialized contributions in aesthetics, right now I can think of Transparency a Key to Spatial Depth in Painting (which is confirmed by one of the world’s leading vision scientist, Jan Koenderink.) The Conceptual Transformation from Touch to Sight, is unique as far as I know.  Less specialized is 3 Visual Axioms, you can find these on my tutorial page,  http://newberryworkshop.com/Tutorial/tut.html

I don’t know much about the ARI scholars, but someone here must know about what contributions they have made.

Michael


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Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 5:58pmSanction this postReply
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My interest is in Rand's own work. The original work of others is of interest also, but Rand's own claims to original philosophical thinking are what I want to learn, and are something I think it is important for Objectivists in general to know.

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy,

I am sorry; I misunderstood your query limited to Rand's Objectivism. Regardless, it sounds like a really fun path of discovering, and I hope you will share your findings.

Cheers,

Michael


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Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 6:47pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Michael. I didn't mean to be off-putting. I was concerned to keep the focus. I will certainly report on what I find out, if it is more than what comes to me through posts here.

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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As I recall, Objectivism is the only fully integrated philosophical system - all the others have a system, but they're only partially integrated...

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Friday, January 23, 2009 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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So I have Smith's book here. Pages 198-208 detail those who said stuff that Rand said before she said it. Here's what Smith discusses:

Thomas Aquinas said to be conscious is to be conscious of something; consciousness presupposes existence. Other Thomists followed suit. Thomists also said that the senses do not err because they do not judge; they just "present or register or report." Smith cites Peter Coffee who said as much in 1917.

In 1916, HWB Joseph explained that the law of causality is the law of identity applied to action. Brand Blanshard followed suit in 1939.

The idea of volitional consciousness is espoused by Thomist, Michael Maher, as well as Arthur Koestler.

Morality as derived from natural law has been around for centuries (e.g., the Stoics). In 1918 Walter Everett appealed to it in a way resembling Rand's.

Nietzsche pinned value to life.

Aristotle, perhaps contrary to Rand's interpretation, pinned value to facts.

Rand's view of rights and the non-initiation of force principle resemble that of classical liberals, Herbert Spencer in particular. Government as limited only to protecting individual rights was argued for by Wilhelm von Humbolt in 1791.

***

I've read elsewhere that Rand got her definition of "value" from Ludwig von Mises and took her moral justifications of capitalism from von Mises and Murray Rothbard. [edit: now I'm thinking that maybe it was Rothbard who took the moral argument from Rand. And von Mises avoided the moral argument, if I recall correctly. My memory is playing games with me.]

As for her concept formation, it's quite similar to many philosophers' views of abstraction.

***

Of course, she's likely the first to have stuck all these pie pieces together.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 1/24, 10:34am)


Post 12

Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 10:58amSanction this postReply
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Wow, Jordan, that's fantastic. I'll get the book. I owe you two.

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Post 13

Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 6:54pmSanction this postReply
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Sure thing Mindy. The book isn't that great though. His book "Atheism: The Case Against God" is much better. It's the best comprehensive defense of atheism that I know of.

Jordan

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Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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"A blessed and indestructible being has no trouble himself and brings no trouble upon any other being; so he is free from anger and partiality, for all such things imply weakness."

The indestructible robot argument has a parallel in the thought of Epicurus.

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Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Great discovery, Ted.

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Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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Back in 2007, Stephen Boydstun informed us that "in 1976 at The Philosophy of Objectivism lectures, Rand was asked what she regarded as her most important philosophical discoveries. She said her ethics, her theory of concepts, and her identification of the non-initiation of force principle as the objective mark by which individual rights can be determined. (She made some sort of caveat about realizing that some might wonder whether she was the first on that last one, but anyway, it was one of her most important finds.) My memory of this needs to be verified by a transcript of the tapes."

I believe the following are exact quotes as provided by Roger Bissell in a post to the Atlantis forum on February 28th of 2001: "In Leonard Peikoff's 1975-76 lectures on Objectivism, Ayn Rand took part in some of the question-answer sessions, and in Lecture 8, she corrected a questioner about what were the 'important' concepts of her philosophy, and she said:

"'I would say the most important parts of my philosophy are my definition of concepts, of concept-formation, my ethics, and MY DISCOVERY OR DEFINITION IN POLITICS THAT THE VIOLATION OF RIGHTS CONSISTS OF THE INITIATION OF FORCE.'" [My emphasis]

Roger continued: "Peikoff underscores this point in lecture 9, where he says:

'Now, how can rights, speaking of proper, individual, political rights, be violated? In essence, by one method only, by compulsion, by the involuntary -- in other words, by physical force, directly or indirectly. THIS IS ONE OF AYN RAND'S MOST IMPORTANT DISCOVERIES IN THE FIELD OF POLITICS. THE ISSUE OF INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS WAS GRASPED IN THE 17TH AND 18TH CENTURIES, BUT EARLIER THINKERS LEFT OPEN THE ISSUE: HOW DO YOU KNOW OBJECTIVELY WHEN A RIGHT HAS BEEN VIOLATED?'

However, it should be recognized that although Rand claimed to have “discovered” the principle that the violation of rights consists of the initiation of force, that principle was not in fact original with her. The 19th Century individualists were already aware of it. For example, in 1897, Auburon Herbert wrote:

"[S]o long as [the individual] lives within the sphere of his own RIGHTS, so long as he respects these RIGHTS in others, NOT AGGRESSING BY FORCE OR FRAUD upon the person or property of his neighbors, he cannot be made subject, apart from his own consent, to the control and direction of others, and he cannot be rightfully compelled under any public pretext, by the force of others, to perform any services, to pay any contributions, or to act in any manner contrary to his own desires or to his own sense of right....[My emphasis]

"The moral RIGHTS of a delegated body, such as a government, can never be greater than the moral RIGHTS of the individuals who delegated to it its power. FORCE can only be used (whether by an individual or by a government makes no difference) for DEFENSIVE purposes -- never for AGGRESSIVE purposes...."[My emphasis]

In a footnote, Herbert added: "The ordinary coarse forms of fraud are the moral equivalents of force...."

He continued: "...Against whom, then, you will ask, may force be used? Simply against users of force (and fraud) as the murderer, the thief, the common swindler, and the aggressive foreign enemy."

[From The Right and Wrong of Compulsion by the State and Other Essays by Auberon Herbert (Liberty Classics, Indianapolis, 1978), pp. 370-373.]

It is clear from these passages that the non-aggression principle is not one that Rand originated. Indeed, her formulation of it so closely matches Herbert's even down to his explicit identification of fraud as a form of force that it is difficult to believe that she didn't read him or someone very close to his views.

Accepting Rand's word on the subject, Objectivists (at ARI) claim that the non-aggression principle was discovered by her, and even go so far as to accuse the libertarians of "plagiarizing" it. If anything, it appears that Rand herself may have "plagiarized" it -- if not from Herbert then from some other 19th Century individualist or libertarian. Since Rand made such a point of condemning second-handers, it is ironic to see her claiming "discovery" of a principle that had already been discovered before she was born.

- Bill



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Post 17

Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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Great piece of research, Bill!
I'd like to say, entirely for its own sake, and not as a reflection on anyone else, that my purpose in this thread is the scholarly one. I do not aim to discredit Ayn Rand or Objectivism. It is quite possible to re-invent the wheel, or to fail to realize a stimulus to an idea that is buried in memory. Anyway, as an aside, I wanted to say where I stood on that.


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Post 18

Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
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While other philosophers have brushed on the Stolen Concept, or shown how particular instances of it have been mistakes, (Aristotle uses a form of it in his critique of those who do not know what is prior, and what is demonstrable) Rand is, so far as I know, unique in formulating it explicitly, naming it, rooting it in an explicit theory of concepts, and making it a central part of her methodology.

Oh, and Mindy, you deserve credit for a good thread.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/25, 4:54pm)


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Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 5:32pmSanction this postReply
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At the time, Algernon's writings were not known - out of print, etc, so possible was re-inventing a wheel lost?

We know a lot of those works because they've been reprinted for our knowing -
but if Liberty Funds and the like not done it, be hard to say ye ever heard of them.......


(Edited by robert malcom on 1/25, 5:34pm)


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