About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Let's talk about Moral Relativism for a moment.

I believe these points to be true:

1) Values are not universal

2) Morality is derived from values

3) Therefore morality is relative to an individual's values.

Now, as Objectivists, we also hold one value to be universal. Namely that we all respect Human Life. Therefore, because we hold this value to be universal, we can draw the conclusion that a universal moral code can be derived which respects each individual's right to live as he so decides. Right?

We can only draw a universal moral code from a universal value. So, because each human, as a living organism, has a nature, as do all living organisms, we can therefore draw a moral code which respects each human's individual rights as a right to live within his nature. Right?

So, we're not moral relativists because we believe in Life as a universal value unlike moral relativists. We see this in nature, and recognize that each living organism has a nature, including humans whose nature we protect by allowing each individual to exercise his individual rights in a code of law.

Right?

SnowDog


Post 1

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 2:34amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hey SnowDog,

I have a slightly different take on things.  First, I would change premise #1 to be "Values are not objective".  Universal is kind of a strange concept.  Values are valuable to someone, for some purpose.  They're relational...at least according to Objectivism.  So while something may be a value to one person in a context, it may not be valuable to another person or in a different context.  Water is great when you have a fire you need to put out, but if you're drowning, more water is the last thing you want.

Going on to your example of universal value, human life.  It should be clear that our own lives are the real value to us, and other people are valuable because of a number of reasons.  Trade, education, friendships, division of labor, and more are examples of the harmony of interest between people.  But we don't value other people in all situations.  If someone tries to kill you, his life is not valuable to you.

But moral relativism is defeated by objective values, even if they're not universal.  The fact that a single person should pick values in a particular way means that he can't just pick any moral system.  Only one is best for him.  It is objective values that make objective morality possible.

Thoughts?


Post 2

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 5:22amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hello Joseph!

Notice that one of the first things you say is, "Values are not objective".  Then later, "It is objective values that make objective morality possible." It's this very bridge from the subjective to the objective that gives me pause. "Values are not objective." I agree. But this means that one's value of human life must be accepted by choice before individual rights would be of value, and before an objective moral code can be agreed upon. I don't have a problem with this. Morality is for those who want to live.

But what does the moral relativist do? As I understand it, he doesn't find any objective value. "Whatever goes!" is his mantra; life or death not withstanding. I think this is the difference. The objectivist says, "Anything Goes" as long as you hold your life and the lives of all humans as a fundamental value.

Craig


Post 3

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 11:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Snowdog,

I think one problem here is that O'ists often equivocate on "value." Sometimes it means "benefit" while other times it means "desire." Examples: I value gum = I desire gum. Gum is of value to me = Gum benefits me.

If a value is just an object that an agent desires, then values are "subjective." If a value is an object that is of benefit to the agent (regardless of whether agent would desire the object), then values are "objective."

It seems like you use 'value' to mean 'desire' or 'object of desire' when you write "Values are not universal." Clearly no two individuals' desires are the same. I then take your second and third premises as suggesting that morality is predicated on and is relative to an individual's desires. You've outlined basic subjectivism here.

But then you attempt to escape this subjectivism by using 'value' as objective when you say that "respect human life is the universal value." Here I think you're saying that it's beneficial for the agent to respect human life, regardless of whether agent desires to do so.

As I understand them, this is not how O'ism or relativism work. The relativists I know tend to think of morals as evolving from culture/custom. For instance, relative to some African culture, female genital mutiliation is morally permissible, maybe even imperative; whereas relative to some US culture, it's morally repugnant. The relativists' standard for measuring moral goodness is based on internal cultural norms. If a culture indicates that killing an unwed nonvirgin is good, then it is good. Not just anything will go in moral relativism. The individual's action must confirm (to some degree) with the cultural norms.

People disagree with how O'ism works morally, but here's where I think there's overlap in the arguments: Where there're options (i.e., possible actions an agent can take in relation to some object(s)), some options are better and some are worse for the individual. To determine the worth of an option, it must be evaluating w/r/t the individual facing that option. All O'ists seem to accept this. But O'ists seem to disagree on whether to include in their evaluation (1) the individual's desires surrounding the option, (2) the benefits that would arise from the option, or (3) a combo of both desire and benefit of the option.

Jordan


Post 4

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ayn Rand defines value as 'that which one acts to gain or keep', and this makes sense to me. How can we have a value which the valuer does not want? So if a value is something of benefit to someone, and not necessarily something that the valuer desires, then I think we have a contradiction. It also seems to me that if we define value as something of benefit to someone, then the door opens to utilitarianism, majority rule, and public bans on smoking, etc., since someone has to define the benefit, and if we separate this person from the valuer himself, then it goes to someone else like a dictator, a majority, etc. So values must be subjective.
 
And this leads to a leap in logic. I can see that the human animal has a nature; that free-will is a strong component of that nature; that the ability to think is his primary tool of survival; and I can conclude logically from these observations that humans have Natural Rights dervied from their nature -- and that for the human animal to live like a human animal, his rights must be respected. But outside of my own egoistic nature, I don't care about your rights. It's because I DO want to live in a world where everyone is happy, and people are free, and the world makes sense, without contradiction, that I then personally value the rights of everyone. I see it as a social contract: because everyone else respects my rights, and life is good, I am more than happy to respect everyone else's rights.
 
But where's the objectivity? Is it objective because we can observe man's nature and see his need for individual rights? If so, then this doesn't really have anything to do with value. It's simply an observation. People must still, subjectively, value the rights of others. There is still, and always will be, an IF in value because people have to choose their values.
 
But really, there are two questions here in ethics: "How should I treat myself?" and "How should I treat my neighbor?" and they have different roots. "How should I treat myself?" can be answered when I establish my own life as my highest value, and derive my moral code accordingly. "How should I treat my neighbor?" can be answered when I establish an observation of 'human nature' as the primary value from which to derive a moral code. There are two premises here for two different questions, and BOTH are incorporated into the Objectivist framework, it seems.
 
Isn't it this standard for value which pins down Objectivist ethics, both personally and communally? In both cases it's a variant of human Life which is the standard for value.

Back again to moral relativism. Even if moral relativism is culturally based, without a standard for value, such as human nature as the Objectivists base it, then "anything goes" as long as some culture has a tradition for it. Without a standard for value, there can be no limits for such a moral code.
 
SnowDog

(Edited by SnowDog on 12/03, 2:19pm)


Post 5

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Snow Dog,

Here is where I think you go wrong

"So if a value is something of benefit to someone, and not necessarily something that the valuer desires"
 
Since you already noted
 
"Ayn Rand defines value as 'that which one acts to gain or keep'
If you are acting to gain or keep something, it is a value and as it is a value you desire it. Desire being an emotion that is a response to what you value. It's a contradiction to say that you do not desire something that is a value to you.
 
Ethan
 
 
 


Post 6

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
If you are acting to gain or keep something, it is a value and as it is a value you desire it. Desire being an emotion that is a response to what you value. It's a contradiction to say that you do not desire something that is a value to you.
I agree, and yours is the point I was trying to make. It's a contradiction to have a value that the valuer does not desire.

Craig


Post 7

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Snow Dog:

without a standard for value
The Objectivist standard of value isn't "human nature" though. The standard of value is your life as a rational human being.
 
Ethan


Post 8

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The Objectivist standard of value isn't "human nature" though. The standard of value is your life as a rational human being.
Then the question begs, how can 'my life as a rational human being', allow me to derive the political concept of Individual Rights, and how can 'my life as a rational human being' give me the respect for the Rights of others?

Craig


Post 9

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Craig,

I recommend reading the stuff at ImportanceofPhilosophy.com to get an understanding of objectivist ethics and politics. I can't possibly type all that here.

Ethan


Post 10

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I recommend reading the stuff at ImportanceofPhilosophy.com to get an understanding of objectivist ethics and politics. I can't possibly type all that here.
Can you summarize it? Hit the main points in the logic chain.

I've been studying Objectivist Ethics for 17 years.

Craig


Post 11

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Craig,

I don't want this to sound snide, but if you don't get it after 17 years, then you likely won't. No ill will intended.

Of course, you may have some argument that proves your theory is right, but I havn't seen it yet. I'll keep reading your posts to see if you understand something I don't about the subject, but these points seem pretty basic to the system. I'm no objectivist scholar, but the process from your life as a rational human being to ethics and politics has always seemed clear.

Ethan


Post 12

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 3:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
With all due respect, if Objectivist Ethics were all that clear, then there wouldn't be any opponents. There wouldn't be utilitarians, leftists, socialists, and conservatives. It would simply be clear.

You made the assertion that the standard of value "isn't human nature", but rather "Your Life as a Rational Human Being". That's a rather broad remark, and I don't think I disagree with it. It just needs clarifying. As a rational human being, how do you know that people need Property Rights, (for instance)? Don't you look at human nature and see that man has no hair, no claws, no fur, no strong teeth, and no strength, and realize that he has been living on Earth for millions of years by using his mind? That therefore his mind is his primary tool of survival, and to deny him use of his mind is akin to denying the right for fish to swim, or birds to fly? That it is his necessity to think that requires that he have the ability to think and act on those thoughts that we allow him the freedom to act accordingly? That property is not the right to possess, but rather the right to think, act, and keep the fruits of his labor?

How else can human rights theory be developed if not by looking at human nature, as a rational human being? If you disagree then you must think that there is another way to develop rights theory as a rational human being. If there is clearly a way, then please elucidate your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Craig (Houston)


Post 13

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Just a few comments:

I have to disagree with you two on this point:
If you are acting to gain or keep something, it is a value and as it is a value you desire it. Desire being an emotion that is a response to what you value. It's a contradiction to say that you do not desire something that is a value to you.
The emotion of desire is based on your (previous) value-judgments, not the other way around.  In life we often do things we don't particularly want to do because we know it is the right thing to do.  If you get up in the morning to go to work, it's not because you have a desire to drive through traffic and put in 8 hours of sometimes tedious work.  Desire is not the same as value.

When it comes to standards of value, it has to be one thing, or it isn't useful.  If you have two standards, such as yourself and other people, what do you do when you have a contradiction?  If you find that something is good for you, and not good for other people?  Or good for other people, and not good for you?  If you look at morality as a bunch of "Thou shalt nots" where it limits your actions, it makes some sense because then you just don't do anything that hurts either.  But morality is a method to determine which action to take.  If something benefits you and not other people, and another thing benefits other people and not you, which do you pick?  Whatever you choose, you can't claim to have made a rational choice.

And that means if you want to defend the concept of rights, you have to do it based on your own life.  Besides, if it really was a benefit for you to dismiss rights, why shouldn't you do it?  If you say that other people are valuable, but without giving a reason for it (i.e., how do they benefit you), that would be subjectivism, and you can't fight subjectivism with more subjectivism.  The key is to see how the concept of rights ties into your own self-interest.

And the answers in general are quite easy.  If you don't respect the rights of others, you are attacking their lives and turning them into enemies.  You can't expect people to deal with you peacefully if you don't treat them so.  If you do, you allow cooperation, trade, friendships, love, economies of scope, economies of scale, division of labor, division of ideas,  and any number of other possible benefits.  People are valuable to other people but not because of some abstract "brotherly love" theory.  There are a million concrete reasons why they are.  But those reasons are only valid when rights are respected.  It's really very simple...maybe you're trying to read to much into it.


Post 14

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Good points! And I think that you and Ethan (who doesn't want to argue his points) are correct. Human nature is not a standard for value. I respect the Rights of others because my Life is my highest value, and I want to live in a society with all the benefits that mutual respect brings.

But how do you derive individual rights without looking at human nature? It's BECAUSE the human needs to be allowed to think, and act on that thought, and keep the benefits of such action, that we can build Rights, like the Right to Liberty, the Right to Property, etc. While not a standard of value, an observation of human nature is necessary to recognize that Rights are requirements for life. So one answers the question, "How should I treat others?" by respecting their rights, developed by an observation of human nature, for the reason that one wants to live his own life in society with all the blessings thereof.

It is not moral relativism because one's Life is the standard of value.

Craig


Post 15

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
SnowDog,

Agreed.  We respect rights because we want the benefits of society, etc.  But the rights are based on facts of reality, in this case the requirements of man's life.  It's the objective requirements that define the rights.  So yes, human nature is part of the answer.

It should also be noted that the benefits of society take more than mere respecting of rights.  If you want to trade with people, you have to find something they want.  If you want friends, you have to offer them values in return.  There's an entire realm of values there that if you want, you have to take action to get them.  Respecting of rights is a necessary condition to have access to these values, but it's not sufficient.  David Kelley's book Unrugged Individualism discusses that in more detail.


Post 16

Friday, December 3, 2004 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Joe,

You are correct, and my statement was mis-worded at best. I was really trying to respond to this in Craig's previous post:

So if a value is something of benefit to someone, and not necessarily something that the valuer desires, then I think we have a contradiction.
I get what you're saying about the emotional response being based on previous value-judgments. My first idea to respond to Craig's statement was to use an example such as a colonoscopy or other potentially uncomfortable medical procedure. We may not desire to have that procedure, but it would be clearly beneficial to us.

I didn't see the contradiction that Craig was suggestings, as your example shows, (driving to work) desire and value aren't the same thing. Speaking as someone who drives 1.5 hours to work (one way) each day, I get it. I hope one day to acheive the clear understanding and clear expression that you bring to matters!

Thanks!

Ethan


Post 17

Saturday, December 4, 2004 - 6:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Perhaps it would help to read Tara Smith's book, VIABLE VALUES, in which she points  out that there are values, and there are viable values - which are the ones needed to enhance the wellbeing of a human, and as such, are the moral values......

Post 18

Saturday, December 4, 2004 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Craig:
Ayn Rand defines value as 'that which one acts to gain or keep', and this makes sense to me
She says that, but that's not how she uses the term. If I gained or kept lice, that shouldn't indicate either that I desire lice or that lice benefit me. Or replace lice with drugs or soap operas. Also, if I don't gain or keep $1mil, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't desire or benefit from $1mil. She was 'defining objects of an agents actions,' which might or might not be beneficial or desirable to that agent.

It also seems to me that if we define value as something of benefit to someone, then the door opens to utilitarianism, majority rule
Nah. To answer the question -- "of benefit or desire to whom or what?" -- O'ism answers, "the particular individual," and Utilitarianism answers, "the greatest number of individuals." There's no confusing the two, regardless of whether we treat value as meaning either desire or benefit.
Even if moral relativism is culturally based, without a standard for value, such as human nature as the Objectivists base it, then "anything goes" as long as some culture has a tradition for it.
The standard of value for moral relativism is the cultural in which the agent is a part. If the agent acts against his culture's norms, then accordingly to moral relativism, he is acting immorally. Similarly, if an agent acts against his nature as the creature he is, then according to O'ism, he is acting immorally.
People must still, subjectively, value the rights of others.
And if they don't, then they wouldn't be immoral if they violated others' rights?

Rowlands:
We respect rights because we want the benefits of society
I would say this isn't primary. If we can reap the benefits of society w/o respecting others' rights, then should we? This is the prudent predator problem. And if a person clearly offers us no benefit, then may we ignore or disrespect his rights? This I would call the useless-and-harmless agent problem.

Jordan


Post 19

Saturday, December 4, 2004 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

Can we make a distinction between 'desire' the emotion, and 'desire' the rational choice? If you use the word 'benefit' to describe a value and the valuer does not choose the value for either emotional gain or rational gain, then it can't be a value. Are you seriously saying that something that an individual does not desire, and does not want, could be of value to him if it benefits him? If so, then how do you know it's of benefit to him? Where do you get this knowledge? Who decides?

Back to 'that which one acts to gain or keep'. If you acted to gain and keep lice, then they are of benefit to you. Perhaps you are a biologist, studying them. On the other hand, if you gained and kept lice in your head, without intentionally acting to do so, then the lice doesn't fall under Rand's definition of value.

Craig


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.