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Post 40

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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More seriously, Joe and Linz, I don't think it is being party-pooping or lack or benevolence or lack of a charitable interpretation to warn of very real possible problems, having seen them cause problems to other organizations in the past.

Being critical (while supportive in general) simply allows one to avoid those problems in the future and is the most positive thing you can do. (I would be being too "negative" only if I were completely wrong in my detailed analysis.)

Post 41

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 2:48pmSanction this postReply
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By the way, has anyone noticed looking at the photos next to our posts #38 & #39, that Nathan Hawking looks exactly the way I would if I took copious amounts of drugs?

[see now that's not uncivil, it's just funny.]

Post 42

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 2:48pmSanction this postReply
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Phil wrote:

And you have to choose between my different packages: i) party-pooping, ii) wet blanketism, iii) raining on parades, iv) pessimism and crack of doom prognostication.

None of the above, thanks. Nor even your most famous package, the trichotomy. :-)

Linz


Post 43

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 3:22pmSanction this postReply
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I just had lunch with Andrew Bates and Luke. Some trichotomies are more convincing... ahem... in person...

//;-)

Michael
Solo Grapeviner

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Post 44

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
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Joe:
Lindsay and Alec, I appreciate the arguments against the Atlas point system.  It's not perfect.  But really, it works great!  Better than ever expected!  In the old days, when you wrote an article, nobody who liked it or agreed bothered to post.  The only people who posted (generally) were those that disagreed with some point, or wanted to hear themselves talk.  If someone agreed with everything, and didn't have anything interesting to contribute, they would just leave it.  So authors never got feedback.  How fun is writing for SOLO when nobody responds to your article at all?  We have a system now where people get applauded for their contributions by a click of the button. 
When first I arrived, less than two months ago, I had my doubts about those Little Globe Guy points.

But as one who's interested in pushing the envelope on philosophy, even if it takes Objectivists into unfamiliar territory or contradicts orthodox views, I soon noticed something interesting about this push-button applause.

People will often click their approval of views even when they may be unwilling to voice an outright endorsement.

If somebody wants to rack up the Atlas points, of course, write something praising and extensively quoting Ayn Rand. (She did, after all, have many praiseworthy ideas!)

But that comes as no surprise. The surprise here is the level of quiet affirmative feedback for ideas which may challenge the conventional wisdom. And THAT, if Objectivism is not to become a stagnant philosophical backwater, is a healthy thing!

I agree that the Little Globe Guys are helpful.
Honestly, no matter what you do some people are going to be pissed off.  No matter how vicious and disgusting the person is, some people are going to rally to his defense and others are going to attack the decision makers for not somehow converting him into a nice, friendly person.  There are no easy answers here that make everyone happy. 
True. But I doubt any of the suggestions you're getting have "making everyone happy" as a premise, Joe.

The premise is that some procedures and organizational structures tend to have different consequences than others.

All too often, the founders' instincts for what it takes to get a movement or organization off the ground are right, but wrong for what it eventually takes for growth and maturation.

I'll mention it again, as I have your ear, Joe: Jimbo Wales, the founder of Wikipedia, himself an Objectivist, may be able to offer some suggestions. That phenomenon has gotten rather large, has had its own growing pains. His experience might be valuable, if he's willing to share it.

Nathan Hawking
 


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Post 45

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 3:59pmSanction this postReply
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Phil, warnings are fine.  Just the particular warning was funny.  Please Lindsay, don't encourage insults and ad-hominems!

But really, we're not resting on our past accomplishments, nor do we think things will run themselves.  We put a lot of effort into this site and other projects, and we've got lots of plans we're working on.  Thanks for being concerned, but give us some benefit of the doubt that we know what we're doing here.

Nathan, glad you like the Atlas system.

You say that the suggestions are not about "making everyone happy".  Let's assume that for a second.  The point of my little list there is that there are all kinds of trade-offs.  It's easy to suggest alternatives that fix one of the problems, but what happens when it creates two more?  And more importantly, if you don't have a good idea of what all the issues are, you won't know what trade-offs you're making when you suggest something.  Even though people may think otherwise, we do give this all a lot of thought, as other forum owners do as well, I'm sure.  And we adapt the system when we can or need to. 

As for growth pains, we've been having them for 4 years.  Maybe I'll document some of them.


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Post 46

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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What about an 'ignore poster' button, which gives the user a choice to ignore:

- posts by the poster
- threads and gallery items created by the poster

You could even have the option to limit the ignore period, say a "remove ignore after 1 month" checkbox.

That way people could ignore posters who offend them, and everyone else would be unaffected.

All the work (beyond the implementation of the software) would be on the part of the person who wants to ignore a particular poster.

Post 47

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
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Joe:
You say that the suggestions are not about "making everyone happy".  Let's assume that for a second.  The point of my little list there is that there are all kinds of trade-offs.  It's easy to suggest alternatives that fix one of the problems, but what happens when it creates two more?  And more importantly, if you don't have a good idea of what all the issues are, you won't know what trade-offs you're making when you suggest something. 
In view of my short time here, that's doubtless true. I do, however, know things about organizations in general. I raise only possibilities, though.

But I agree: You are in a far better position than I to assess their worth.
Even though people may think otherwise, we do give this all a lot of thought, as other forum owners do as well, I'm sure.  And we adapt the system when we can or need to. 
Nothing about this forum would suggest a haphazard approach to me, Joe. Never thought that for a minute.
 
I was certain that you would give our suggestions fair consideration, and if necessary, kill Linz to do things over his dead body. LOL
 
But only if necessary.
 
Nathan Hawking
 


Post 48

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 4:37pmSanction this postReply
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Luke:

I recall a similar retort from an old issue of Liberty magazine quoting, if I recall correctly, you when commenting on a female public official who said that government funding for women's issues would be reduced or eliminated "over [her] dead body."
 
The female public official was our Prime Minister at the time, Jenny Shipley. She said the Ministry of Women's Affairs would be abolished over her dead body. I said that could be arranged.

Linz


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Post 49

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 7:12pmSanction this postReply
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Duncan suggested: "What about an 'ignore poster' button, which gives the user a choice to ignore:
- posts by the poster
- threads and gallery items created by the poster."

Now that would be very useful, especially with respect to certain idiot academic philosophers.


(Edited by Peter Cresswell
on 6/15, 8:28pm)


Post 50

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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I'm also completely for any client-side features to customize views and address the problems of seeing the posts you want. SOLO's web forum is advanced in many ways such as the user pictures, and (for IE users anyway) fonts, quoting, and other effects. Yet for easy reading of posts it could use a couple simple features that have been around since the dark ages in Usenet:

1) As Duncan mentioned, 'killfiles'. The ability to *plonk* a user into your killfile would make any further posts by them be ignored in your view. I don't know of anyone so far on SOLO I consider warranting this, but it can be a useful feature to know you have available, and I get the impression some people would already value this.

2) Threaded discussions. Currently on SOLO all discussions on a topic appear only in flat chronological order. As best I can tell, 'reply' does nothing different from 'post' right now. Reading new messages in a topic requires linearly reading through potentially unrelated sub-discussions, only some of which a reader may care about.

If messages posted via 'reply' to another message were tracked, a set of messages could be displayed in threaded order. 'Post' messages would be displayed first, then underneath them are messages in reply to them, then those in reply to those, and so on. This features saves much time and makes reading the volume of traffic on SOLO more manageable since users can only follow the threads in a topic they find interesting. As a side effect it would also make pissing contests much less public, as most people would skip by name-calling exchanges but still easily read other threads within a topic that do interest them.

These would require database and obviously UI changes to implement. I don't know whether the forum is custom or a packaged setup already.


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Post 51

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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This seems like an awful lot of work for something that can be handled with a little maturity on the part of posters.

Post 52

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 9:34pmSanction this postReply
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Wow! I am impressed. Phil's post 26 is one of the few posts that have actually given me hope about the state of Objectivism. I'm thinking that although SOLO, TOC, and even ARI (on rare occasions) get aspect of it right, I think that the biggest mistake that is being made by all three is that they think the purpose of the movement is to bring about some type of cultural reform, and so they go about writing books and planning conferences and writing op-eds while not focusing on building a community and emphasizing the use of Objectivism as a tool that can and should be implemented in everyday living. There's almost no literature that guides a person in incorporating the principles of this philosophy into everyday life. If I had such a guide, it would have saved almost eight years of my own life. There is a lot that you've said that is giving me much food for thought, as I believe I Objectivism is too important to be just a movement. It should be a way of life.

Adam

Post 53

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 10:40pmSanction this postReply
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> We put a lot of effort into this site and other projects [Joe]

Yes you really do!! As does Linz.

And I just want to say that I really appreciate it.

Phil

(You've done so many things right, that it almost seems mean-spirited to criticize.)

Post 54

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 11:27pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah:
This seems like an awful lot of work for something that can be handled with a little maturity on the part of posters.
I agree.  If certain people annoy us sufficiently, we can certainly choose to pass over their posts.

On a site devoted to the exchange of philosophical ideas, a technofeature which makes certain people invisible to others seems counterproductive. Sometimes even people we dislike say things of value, so their posts and articles should be allowed to catch our eye, if the writer can manage that.

On Usenet newsreaders killfiles can be a valuable feature, as there is considerable spamming and some truly wacko characters on there cluttering up the place.

BUT, if someone is determined not to see certain posters on SOLO, there are always the email receiving options on their User Options page, and most email clients can filters on keywords.   

But I'd be disappointed to see a Killfile feature on the SOLO website, for the same reason I would not favor an Unsanction feature--they would cast a shadow over what otherwise seems an open and free and generally affirming place.

Keep it positive, I suggest.

Nathan Hawking


Post 55

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 1:35amSanction this postReply
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Sarah House wrote:
This seems like an awful lot of work for something that can be handled with a little maturity on the part of posters.
I don't mean to pick on Sarah but her post was convenient.

I quoted the entirety of Sarah's post. To what does 'this' refer? I have no clue. There is no context given and since there is no threading it's impossible for anyone to know what Sarah is talking about.

Threading would be a highly desirable improvement.

Post 56

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 1:59amSanction this postReply
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Rick:

Sarah's "this" refers to the idea of killfiling.

Threading is one of those things which sounds good in principle, but can get rather messy. For one thing, as Aaron noted, the user interface would be more complicated. For another, the databasing issues would be more complicated.

Google, even with all their resources, took forever to get the threading right on their Groups Beta release--assuming they ever did fix it.

SOLO has the rudiments of a threaded user interface displayed on the front page under the articles. So maybe moving to that would be no big deal--but I'm not unhappy with the present arrangement. Not at all.

It helps if people quote or cite the referent of their comments, though, as you note. (Even if all those stripes drive MSK and his pet cat bonkers. LOL)

Nathan


Post 57

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 7:52amSanction this postReply
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It helps if people quote or cite the referent of their comments, though, as you note. (Even if all those stripes drive MSK and his pet cat bonkers. LOL)
Some people manage to over do it. :-)

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Post 58

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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Nathan, ahem..... I think you meant to say Kat--with a "K".  btw - thank you for avoiding those awful stripes on that last post. I was finally able to look at one of your posts. Being a designer, I am ultra-senstive to bad typography and postings resembling visual pizzas. Nothing against you personally. If you need to pick posts apart line by line, I think a better solution is to put the quotes in those angle brackets. It is less offensive to us visually sensitive types. 

< all those stripes drive MSK and his pet cat bonkers. LOL > 


Post 59

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 9:00amSanction this postReply
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I like greater than and less than signs too for denoting summary quotes. Unfortunately they get interpretted as HTML tags and I don't usually have the patience to do ampersand-lt-semicolon, etc. to escape the characters. Is this just another penalty for us gimpy Firefox users? Can IE users type greater-than/less-than signs willy-nilly?


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