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Post 60

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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By local standards I'm a, uh..." religionist," and even I don't like the word "worship". There's this fine line between really getting into someone because their work rings resonant to you, and going over the top into cult of personality mode. I was just watching a thing on Stalin and it reminded me of how easy it is for all that to happen. You can make people do it because there's a little piece of them that kind of wants that and they usually don't even fully know why.

But, in a way, it's a pretty normal response, to a point. If it goes extreme, you either get brainwashed devotees, or stalkers... :) 


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Post 61

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 3:26pmSanction this postReply
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I just listened to the PRODOS interview with PARC’s author, in which he states:

 

(1) “The break had nothing to do—nothing to do—with Ayn Rand and Nathaniel Branden’s affair coming to an end….Ayn Rand was not a particularly jealous person.” [End of quote]

 

PARC asks the reader to believe that, for Ayn Rand, the romance with Nathaniel Branden was over as of January, 1968.  Rand does state (July 4, 1968) that when, in January of that year, Branden started saying “I don’t know” in response to her questions about his feelings for her, that “as far as I was concerned, this was the end.”  Their sexual relationship had apparently been going through a brief “renaissance” for the two months prior to that.  But does the (apparent) end of their sexual relationship in any way imply an end to her romantic feelings for him?  Of course not.  In fact, Rand states that she “could not break with him, as long as any hope remained.”  She states: “I broke with him one night—and he would not let me.”  She gave him another chance, because his “agony” seemed so sincere.  This does not sound like a woman who had put a romantic relationship behind her. 

 

During the period between January and July of 1968, their personal relationship appears to have revolved around frequent discussions of what is described as his “sex problem.”  It seems clear that Rand is doing whatever she can to clarify the problem and help him resolve it.  She even asks him if their age difference is a problem, and he denies it.  On Monday, July 1, 1968, in a telephone conversation, Rand discovers that Branden had spent the previous Sunday in the country with a student rather then “thinking about his problem, as [she] thought he intended to.”  She writes: “That was that.  I told him that this could not go on.”  This refers to her belief that “neither his own problem, nor I, nor his torture of me had any importance to him or any reality.”  Two days later, on July 3, he gave her the paper in which he admitted that the “problem” did, in fact, have directly to do with their age difference.

 

In her response to his paper, where he described his problem as one of  “physical alienation,” Rand writes: “Why didn’t he think it out before he used it to destroy me and our relationship. . . No matter what he feels for me, in fact, in reality, on earth he ended our relationship by means of an offensive, irrational, mindless piece of intellectual trash…What is he giving up, and for the sake of what?”

 

In a subsequent discussion with Branden, Rand demanded that he have no further “friendship” with Patrecia Gullison.  She states “No one of that sort is to profit from this tragedy…”  It would be another month before Rand would learn of the affair with Patrecia—and the final break would ensue.

 

Of course, PARC  makes every effort to obscure the foregoing account, throwing in obfuscation and interpretation to the effect that, after January of 1968, Rand was simply struggling to clarify the issue of Branden’s innocence or immorality.  That is why the perpetrators of this malicious insanity could not simply publish Rand’s journal by itself.  But Rand’s words are clear—and the conclusion is transparently obvious.  Rand ended their relationship when it became clear that there was no longer any hope of resurrecting their romance.   Rand had stated in her notes of July 4 that Branden was engaging in “conscious dishonesty” and “conscious immorality.”  Conscious deception alone was not, therefore, the issue.  It was what he had specifically deceived her about—an affair with someone else—that made all the difference.

 

(2) Another quote from the interview:  Nathaniel and Barbara Branden’s responses to “To Whom It May Concern” were “to put it nicely, a pack of lies.  For example, Nathaniel Branden said that, although he had had an affair with Ayn Rand that had lasted for years, he said that the age difference was an insuperable barrier to any sort of romantic relationship with Ayn Rand and that that was the cause of his break with Ayn Rand. That’s a pretty despicable falsehood in my view.  So not only did they lie to Ayn Rand for years, they lied to the world about the break.” [End of quote.]

 

Here are the last two paragraphs of Nathaniel Branden’s “Answer”:

“That written statement was an effort, not to terminate my relationship with Miss Rand, but to save it, in some mutually acceptable form.
“It was a tortured, awkward, excruciatingly embarrassed attempt to make clear to her why I felt that an age distance between us of twenty-five years constituted an insuperable barrier, for me, to a romantic relationship.”

In PARC (pp. 96-97), the author states that Branden is hereby implying that he “would never, could never, have such a relationship with Rand.”  In fact, of course, Branden is making a deliberate effort to protect Ayn Rand.  He phrases this in a way that leaves open the question as to whether such a relationship had been attempted.  If he had stated that he was declining to continue their relationship, it would have bolstered his position enormously—and done tremendous damage to the reputation of someone to whom he had been so devoted for so many years.  The only “lie to the world” involved is Rand’s: the public perception of the relationship between herself and Frank O’Connor.  Both Nathaniel and Barbara Branden refused to disclose the full truth while Rand was still alive. Yet PARC transforms their benevolence into an indictment, twisting the truth into its exact opposite, making their virtues look like intentional evil.
 

After reading this book, I have a pretty good idea what intentional evil really looks like.  

 

(Edited by Dennis Hardin on 7/09, 3:27pm)


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Post 62

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

You just wrote (about The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics):
After reading this book, I have a pretty good idea what intentional evil really looks like. 
When that kind of "intentional evil" - including the ensuing attempted whitewash - goes overboard in publicly targeting a person or persons with incorrect statements of fact through publication, they have another name for it in this country:
 
Libel.
 
There are clear laws for that kind of practice and USA courts have been judging similar cases for years.
 
I have seen a slight resistance to making use of this protection by Objectivists in general - maybe because of the emphasis on morality, maybe because of the limited-government stance or whatever - but this remedy does exist, it is real, it is reasonable, it is just and I personally think it should be used mercilessly - just as mercilessly as these misguided fanatical people attacked the Brandens and who mischaracterized Ayn Rand's work for their mean-spirited jihad.
 
It would be a wonderful wake-up call to what reality really is for the Randroid community - not what they think it is. Losing a libel case like that would be a serious blow to the credibility of those who mistakenly deem that they are the ones who define reality for humanity based on "being the caretaker of" - or "protecting the name of" - Ayn Rand, and that this gives them a blanket sanction to do any old irrational thing their whim or hatred leads them to perform.
 
Then, who knows? Maybe the job of spreading Objectivist ideas could proceed at a much faster rate without all the pettiness that has been holding it back for years.
 
Michael

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Post 63

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I'm sold. A reality check on this particular ivory tower would be welcome.

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Post 64

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 6:00pmSanction this postReply
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Michael K--

 

My personal view is that the author’s grotesque characterization of NB as a “spiritual rapist” is so ridiculous that it just shows the whole book to be exactly what it is: a vitriolic ad hominem  attack devoid of serious merit.

 

If the book had been published in the 1970’s, before Branden achieved the level of success that he has today, I think he might have considered it.  But now, as the man often described as “the father of the self-esteem movement,” Branden can easily laugh it off.  I sincerely doubt he would want to give PARC or its author the free publicity that a lawsuit would engender.   He has nothing to gain.  Believe me, his career and reputation will not be damaged in any way by this trash.

 

I am unsure what impact a libel suit would have on the Objectivist movement.  The people who want to believe PARC’s outrageous allegations will believe them anyway, because they want to believe it.   Don’t you suppose that losing a lawsuit would only give the ‘true believers’ proof that the “system is corrupt,” intensifying their feelings of paranoia, isolation and persecution?

 

On the other hand, I would love to see it.  If Nathaniel and Barbara could find an eloquent first class attorney who could show this fraud up for what he is, I would relish every moment.

 



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Post 65

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 6:40pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

I don't understand. When I said that the book would have little impact due to low sales, you said that the impact would be very strong. So now I say - with full legal justification - how about squashing the thing like a bug in the courts? And you say that the book's impact is not big enough to make a difference.

Which is it man? Are you afraid of losing?

I say sue.

The "psychology of a rapist/soul of a rapist" thing is a slam-dunk libel sentence for a normal attorney, much less than for a legal defamation expert.

Michael


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Post 66

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 8:54pmSanction this postReply
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I have had a couple similar encounters to that of Dennis and others with Mr. Branden. They were at TOC summer seminars. Once I happened to be standing near him in a hallway prior to some event or lecture and I made some kind of small talk remark which involved asking him some sort of question, which he ignored. Another time, he was talking with someone in the bus to the closing banquet and as best I can reconstruct it went like this: "Can I take your picture?" He looked sternly at me. So I said, "I don't mean to interrupt your conversation." His response, "Well, you did." So I just moved away in disgust. I think there was one other occasion like the first occasion when I spoke to him and he ignored me. After these three incidents, I was standing next to him and rode in the seat in front of him and walked in behind him (last summer - Vancouver) and never spoke to him again.

And, no matter how brilliant he is, I doubt that I will approach him again.

I strongly suspect someone this intelligent has to know how he is treating people, and the word "authentic" certainly does not apply. And if I were one who had repeatedly hurt people or been callous about their feelings over time, I would at least acknowledge and make some sort of statement of apology or explanation at some point. (Or explain that you don't view this as inappropriate or un-benevolent, if that is your view.)

Has he?


In my personal hierarchy of values brilliant people rank below kind and benevolent and positive people. It's not even a close context. I've known many very brilliant people.

Quite frankly, Scarlet, It ain't that special. Rationality and intelligence are not the same thing. Geniuses and those with Howard Roark's lack of manners are a dime a dozen. Although I could admire his integrity and courage, I have - and immediately had - a strong distaste for Howard Roark in this important area of life and character and behavior from the moment I read "Fountainhead" and could not possibly think of trying to emulate his way of dealing with humans or his debased view of them (as they are, rather than as they could be.)

Francisco is another matter entirely. He is the character I like -and- admire. He is the man who belongs on earth, who understands people, who is well-rounded in that way, who believes people deserve respect and courtesy and benevolence until they clearly prove otherwise.

Real people in -this- world, not in the future or in a fictional one.

Note that Roark's obliviousness to people, beyond a very select few was appropriate in a novel to stylize independence and first-handedness.

It is most emphatically NOT appropriate in real life.

So those of you who are patterning your degree of benevolence or manners or civility after Roark or Branden (at least in those contexts many of us have seen):

Just stop it.

--Philip Coates
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 7/09, 8:59pm)


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Post 67

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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It is brilliant the way Valliant uses Branden's confessions of what was going on behind Rand's back in a time line. By explaining what Branden knew as opposed to what NB was telling Ayn, and then comparing it with what Ayn was writing in her journals, is devastating. 
Branden hangs himself with his own word. Even more amazing is that Ayn Rand, by just asking questions, drives Branden to admit more and more deceit, like a police detective. 


"By late March, Branden's mask is clearly slipping some more. In notes dated "March 20, 1968," Rand elaborates significantly on the issue of Branden's "role-playing:""


Ayn Rand:"Role-playing. We assumed that role-playing applied only to unhappy emotions, as "a last resort against suffering." I think that it might apply to everything, across the board--to the whole emotional realm. I think [Branden] might have been role-playing the part of philosopher-psychologist and the relationship with me.


"Rand now no longer doubts that Branden's values differ significantly from what he had always claimed, not only in the romantic realm, but also in his career and "across the board." The original motives for his love were never real--it really was a "role-playing." Rand has turned another significant corner in her understanding of Mr. Branden.
And Rand has long stopped believing Branden's denials--at least on the subject of his psychology.
Directly beneath this entry, we find the following:"


Ayn Rand:"(The above was discussed over the phone, 3-20-68. Further elaborations: only action has personal meaning and pleasure for him. [Branden] reverses cause and effect: the goal is only an excuse to understand the action, i.e., the end is the means to the process of enacting the means which are the end, for him. In this context, I would be the symbol of that which gives meaning to his action, the psychology-philosophy goal which is not his actual goal (since he does not apply it to himself), but is only the excuse for his action.) (Action both mentally, as theoretician and, existentially, as entrepreneur.)
(He denies this. It does no "ring true" to him.)"


"Rand is beginning to identify that Branden's "actions" are ALL "role-playing" and that she and Objectivism are just symbols for his motives, not the real motives themselves, i.e., he IS a fraud in his professional as well as his personal life.
Rand dispassionately notes his denial without comment; this doesn't "ring true" to Branden. Of course, if his memoir is any indication, he actually knows that Rand is spot-on.
Score another for the hopelessly blind Rand."



 





Post 68

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 10:46pmSanction this postReply
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Michael K,

 

Here is my prior comment:

 

PARC does not have to be a big seller to do serious damage.  Such moronic drivel could never undermine the enduring popularity of Ayn Rand, but, because it has the tacit sanction of ARI, it will negatively impact the spread of Objectivism in two ways:

 

(1)   Cementing the acrimonious and wasteful ‘war of words’ among supporters of the philosophy;

(2)   Reinforcing and justifying the understandable disrespect shared by many prominent observers toward Objectivism as a legitimate and serious intellectual viewpoint.

 

And PARC’s well-deserved pratfall will, in itself, serve as cannon fodder for Objectivism’s enemies and detractors, because they can use it to make the case for the movement’s decline in popularity.      

 

This is not inconsistent with what I said today:

 

The book is “a vitriolic ad hominem  attack devoid of serious merit.”

 

“…Branden can easily laugh it off.  I sincerely doubt he would want to give PARC or its author the free publicity that a lawsuit would engender.   He has nothing to gain.  Believe me, his career and reputation will not be damaged in any way by this trash.”

 

My view is that PARC will damage Objectivism, by reinforcing both the internal bickering and the generalized cultural disrepute.  It will not damage Nathaniel (or Barbara).  How is that confusing?

 

Philip,

 

How are you?  It’s been a while since the FORUM days. 

 

I generally agree with your comments.  I don’t suppose it matters to Branden, but I cannot say that I like him. I sincerely like that talk show host I met in Denver.  I respect him and I think he may well be a happier person than Branden.  And that’s too bad.  Objectivism needs ambassadors who can demonstrate, through their enthusiasm, benevolence and jubilant attitude toward life, the advantages of a fully rational philosophy.  I knew Branden in the seventies, and I think he may have been that ambassador at that time.  Perhaps the losses he has suffered (Ayn, Barbara, Patrecia, now Devers) have left him with a thick skin.  He certainly does not seem to be the same man today, and that is truly sad.

.         

 

 

 

 

(Edited by Dennis Hardin on 7/09, 10:59pm)


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Post 69

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 11:44pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

We disagree about the extent Valliant's book will damage the Objectivist movement. I think it is helping polarize the fanatical elements and die-hard Branden haters from the rest of the movement - and that is a good thing if Objectivism is to have increasing impact on the world. Damage the Objectivist movement? I would be interested to see the indicators, like book sales, attendance at and number of conferences, etc. Here on Solo, at least, the Objectivist movement is actually growing.

We also disagree that Valliant's book causes no injury to either of the Brandens. Let someone write a book about you like that someday and see how that makes you feel and causes you discomfort/loss in your friendships and profession. If Nathaniel Branden's indifference made you feel so bad (please, I am not making light of your experience, merely making a point), how about pure spite and hatred doctored up as an investigation by an attorney, including patently false statements, and having it supported by some of your peers?

That is why I recommend suing. The real courts in the real world under real laws is where such injury is defined and given remedy.

If Objectivism is to become a larger movement, it is time for it to get real in the real world. Real libel is not an opinion we discuss on an Internet forum or with friends. It is tort and/or crime. It is prosecuted in a USA court of law. If proven, it is punished. Such punishment will not be simply excommunication from a group.

That's real.

Just like publishing a defamatory book is.

Despite our disagreements, I appreciate your work in exposing the absurd excesses in Valliant's book.

Edit - btw, I have been really out of things for a while. What on earth happened to Devers?

Michael
(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 7/09, 11:48pm)


Post 70

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 11:51pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn,

Thanks for the post on "role-playing." I think that this is a common thread across all the otherwise inexplicable behaviors that Nathaniel Branden exhibits. This includes the "role-playing Howard Roark" behaviors reported by several other posters in this thread. (I recall from graduate school survey courses that the technical term is "dissociation," but the simpler term "role-playing" covers things just as well.) I have not had time to read Valiant's book yet, but Rand's observations mesh my own so closely that I'm going to move this book up a few places in my queue.

Dennis,

You write, "I knew Branden in the seventies, and I think he may have been that ambassador at that time." The "Grammar Teacher from Hell" episode I reported earlier in this thread took place in 1967. Maybe Branden was role-playing a happy person in the seventies? Or, maybe, he also has an authentic self somewhere, when he isn't playing Howard Roark or "Hellen" or anyone else? Who knows?

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Post 71

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Philip,

"Note that Roark's obliviousness to people, beyond a very select few was appropriate in a novel to stylize independence and first-handedness.

It is most emphatically NOT appropriate in real life."

I simply cannot fathom the world that you live in. But I'm sure it's a very nice world. I'm very uncomfortable around people who are too "nice". I never know what they're thinking. I guess I don't trust them. Howard Roark is my very favorite Ayn Rand character, followed by John Galt.

Give me rationality and intelligence any time. Benevolent and kind people are a dime a dozen. [Except they aren't, necessarily].

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Post 72

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Mike and Philip, might your differing views on your values hierarchy when assessing others have its roots in extroversion versus introversion?  Extroverts feel energized when around people.  Introverts feel energized when alone.  Having met Philip, I get the impression he leans strongly toward the extrovert end.  I do not know Mike, but I would hazard a guess that he leans introvert.  Evidence suggests these leanings develop early in life and may even have genetic roots.

I agree with Philip that good manners make for a better world and generally serve one's own self-interest.  I agree with Mike that an excessive degree of "niceness" can give one good cause for suspicion.  Ellsworth Toohey no doubt had good "manners" yet he advocated evil ideas.  The converse held true for Howard Roark.

Of course, one can have both good manners and rationality at the same time.  One can even disagree publicly in a well-mannered and clever way.  The flamboyant and friendly Francisco D'Anconia did this well.  I seek to emulate the cleanly worded snappy comebacks he used on the likes of James Taggart.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 7/10, 12:08pm)


Post 73

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Per your definition I would say I lean strongly towards introvert. I appreciate your helpful analysis. Thanks.

Post 74

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 11:38amSanction this postReply
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Re: introversion/extroversion

The problem with extroverts is that they take everything personally. In fact, an introvert's reaction has nothing to do with you. I don't know anything about Mr. Branden, but if he is an introvert then, Philip, the ways you described approaching him would have been torturous. I probably would have reacted similarly.

Sarah

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Post 75

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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Sarah writes...
The problem with extroverts is that they take everything personally.
Well! You don't have to be SO INSULTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Post 76

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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One could almost say an introvert fears the world, an extrovert fears self... because of the 'uncomfortability' issue...


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Post 77

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Robert M.,

The world? No, not at all. Just the opposite in fact. I love the world, just not all the company. Read Party of One for some excellent insight if you want.

Sarah

Post 78

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 11:57amSanction this postReply
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SOLITUDE, by Storr, is another along this line...

The problem with me, tho, is that while my chosen - being an artist and philosopher - requires much in the way of alone thinking time, foir the creatings, yet am uncomfortable at being alone so much of my life... at the same time, am not a party person, needing only a few to make life pleasurable for me...


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Post 79

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Malcom, introverts tend to form a few close bonds rather than many moderate ones.  What you describe fits an introvert profile.  The challenge for the introvert is to meet enough people so that he can bond with the truly compatible ones to form the close friendships he craves.  The challenge for the extrovert is to spend enough time and effort with the truly compatible ones to form the close friendships he craves.

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