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Post 60

Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:14pmSanction this postReply
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These kids are trying to live life their way without letting the blackmail of "you're dependent on us" curb their individual freedom.
Haha! : ) Is kissing a crime? How could it be blackmail?

Have the parents discussed the consequences for going against their will on this matter?

Post 61

Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:32pmSanction this postReply
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Neha,

"The parents do not want the boy to be seen with any kind of a girl...they say he can live life his way - after he graduates from college."

I’m using a similar technique on another issue with my young kids. I’ve made sure they haven’t seen a street yet. They can’t handle crossing a street! At twelve or so, they will be ready, and that’s when I’ll let them loose into traffic.

Neha, you must promise me that you will show my posts to them.

Jon
(Edited by Jon Letendre
on 8/28, 9:43pm)
(Edited by Jon Letendre
on 8/28, 9:45pm)


Post 62

Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

Caught kissing, or even with her, and his educational support will be withdrawn.

Please keep up.

Jon


Post 63

Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
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"Caught kissing, or even with her, and his educational support will be withdrawn."

When did Neha say that?

Post 64

Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

I haven’t recovered yet from your interest in what kind of life the parents want for him. Nothing personal, but I’ll leave it to others to answer your question.

Jon

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Post 65

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 5:31amSanction this postReply
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Neha explained:
The parents do not want the boy to be seen with any kind of a girl, however angelic she may be. The parents are quite freedom-loving in the sense that they say he can live life his way - after he graduates from college. Their line is, "you're too young". And maybe they're right, after all. I just wanted to know what objectivists would say to this restriction being applied.
In all fairness to the parents, perhaps the young man lacks the maturity to engage in a romance effectively and the parents know him well enough to see this.  In that case, he would be wise to respect their ground rules.

Conversely, if he does possess the needed maturity, then I would challenge the wisdom but not the authority of the parents.  I consider it unwise to restrict the young man in that way but, in the end, it is their money and not his.  If he has other financing options, I would encourage him to investigate those.  I would not advise him to lie to them in order to defraud them of their money.

I say the parents are "unwise" because there are certain aspects of the self that one has a hard time knowing without actually putting oneself into the context of a dating or romantic situation.  Perhaps the parents consider the passions of romance so strong that they could harm the young man's ability to remain focused on his studies.  Some training in the fine art of rational egoism could mitigate that risk.

Please direct this young man to the SOLO Florida page for guidance in discovering, validating and ranking one's values.  He may learn that romance falls near the bottom of his overall list of values after all.  In this case, his clash with his parents will diminish considerably.


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Post 66

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 7:06amSanction this postReply
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I have a better idea, Luke. Let’s direct this young man’s *parents* to the SOLO Florida page for guidance in discovering, validating and ranking one's values.

They may learn that living through their son is not good for them, either.

Jon

Post 67

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 7:15amSanction this postReply
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Jon, that is a brilliant idea!  I agree with your post and sanction it!

In fact, I say we should refer the whole family there and get them all on the path to Objectivist enlightenment!


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Post 68

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 10:46amSanction this postReply
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"I had one hissy fit. Surely that's allowed?"

I didn't notice any hissy fit...maybe I'm just used to ignoring adolescent huffing and puffing, which I found usually works the best. In fact, I refused to communicated  with my kids when they would resort to whining. "I don't listen to whining," I would tell them. Result: my kids don't whine. They talk.

"And yes, the boy's education is at risk. And I'm not the type that would look for permission, anyway. I'm just looking for the objectivist viewpoint on this sort of stuff. I'm not the girl, oh no, thank you. These kids are trying to live life their way without letting the blackmail of "you're dependent on us" curb their individual freedom."

It's a shame that they would threaten him over something so completely natural and normal. As parents, they suck to the highest degree, and I don't mind saying it. Cutting this kid off from his budding sense of value is going to explode in their face, and they'll be left wondering...I can see it coming, and trust me, it's coming.

"The parents do not want the boy to be seen with any kind of a girl, however angelic she may be."

They're idiots, and they're wrong. Sorry, I can't feign respect for a parental power technique so fucking backward and ignorant that is negates the very thing they're trying to get out of him: Responsibility.

Emotionally and cognitively, "the horse is out of the barn" for this boy, and it happened exactly as it should have, when it should have. There's no bringing him back in. There's no tying it back down. His mind as been "outside."

Ignoring normal development won't stop it from happening, nor will denying him his own nature through threats cause the outcome they hope for (whatever the hell that is.)

 He's NORMAL, he's displaying HEALTHY attractions for the opposite sex, he's being RATIONAL in trying to attain his romantic goals. Repression of, through force, this normal, healthy, and rational behaviour in a young man will lend more to his confusion of women, sex, romance, because it maintains an IRRATIONAL MYSTERY to it all.

This is exactly the right time for his parents to be aware of his interests and keeping him abreast of what is appropriate, and what is not. When a child isn't even allowed to ask questions about a subject, in this case, his feelings for a girl, they'er sending the message that there is something wrong with him, when there simply isn't. He'll be forced to work it out himself, without his parents guidance and help.  He'll be forced to make up his own rules, which he's already doing. Shame on his parents. If he's lying about it, it's their fault. If he gets into trouble, they're to blame.

 "The parents are quite freedom-loving in the sense that they say he can live life his way - after he graduates from college."

Clearly, that's much much too late. If they succeed in barning him until then, he'll be completely unprepared to deal with the ladies. He'll miss out on important lessons (about himself, mostly) that early crushes provide. He'll wind up with any female that gives him a second glance. He'll "love" anyone that shows the least bit of interest in him without knowing what he wants in a relationship. He'll be set up for much harder let downs than he is now, because he's not prepared to deal with disappointment. He simply has no experience in knowing how to deal with it.

"Their line is, "you're too young". And maybe they're right, after all."

They're wrong.  All the way around this, they're plain wrong. It's a huge lie they've bought into. He's not too young to have crushes nor to act on them within limits.  Without emotional experiences to reflect on, by the time he graduates from college he'll have absolutely nothing to offer a women emotionally. Worse, he won't understand why.

 "I just wanted to know what objectivists would say to this restriction being applied."

Well, I've just given you what this Objectivist thinks of it. It sucks and it's wrong.


Post 69

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:11amSanction this postReply
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Neha, I am starting to wonder if the parents delayed romance until after college and are simply passing that value, which they consider experientially proven, to their son.  Can you confirm or deny this state of affairs?

We can sit here and rant and rave all day long about how "wrong" they are, but if they have the same independence of mind we have and rely on their experience rather than ours, they will justifiably dismiss our arguments without a second thought.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 8/29, 11:14am)


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Post 70

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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“…they suck to the highest degree.”

Poetry. Succinct, elegant poetry.

Four cheers for Teresa!

Post 71

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

You are equating their attempt to *force* what might have worked for them onto him, with Teresa’s and my stance. We are *not* advocating forcing the boy to romance early and often—but to nurture his sense of values and allow a growing sphere of liberty.

Jon

Post 72

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

The “hissy” Neha was accused of consisted of posting, “ARHHHH!” in #53. I have no idea how that resembles a hissy, or why Neha owned it as such.

Jon

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Post 73

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
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Jon wrote:
You are equating their attempt to *force* what might have worked for them onto him...
[Deep, heavy sigh...]

What is the legal age of adulthood in India?  What are the labor laws there?  Can this young man qualify as a legal adult and break from his parents?  There are too many unanswered questions!

I keep seeing the misuse of the key term "force" as if these people had a gun to the young man's head.  They do not.  Force in the political sense is not being used.  I'm not even sure it qualifies as "coercion."  The parents possess the money and have values.  The young man evidently wants that money without paying the price of complying with the values.  Rubbish!  We can call them bad parents if we want, but given how little we actually know about them or their son, I feel very reluctant to label them in that way.

We had a similar argument regarding the article by Adam Reed on his impregnating affair with a 16 year old girl when he was a 20 year old man.  I dissented from popular opinion then and I will do it now.  The parents make the call with how their money gets spent -- period!  I got called "insensitive" for my remarks then and evidently I will garner that label once more here.

I have little interest in sticking my nose into the relationships between parents and their children.  If they have responsibility for helping this young man to live independently of them, they need to have commensurate authority to employ their values their way.  Our judgments, in the end, will mean nothing to them because we do not pay their bills -- they do.  This is how things ought to be and marks one of those limits to the effectiveness of moral judgment I discussed in the linked article.


Post 74

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Context. This is not about the parents' legal prerogatives. Ethically, creating a child also creates an objective obligation to pay for the education of that child until the child becomes self-supporting, and it does not create any comparable obligation on the part of the young adult (over 12-13) to obey the parents. This is about understanding the parents' motivation well enough to figure out the optimal course of action for the young adult to take.

In the context of India's legacy of a century of socialism, it is likely that no job available to a 15-year-old will pay enough to get him through college. There may be exceptions - the young man might be a prodigy in some well-paying field, or might be able to get a full scholarship to an appropriate school, preferably in a more advanced country.

About the rest, I think that as much advice has been given already as can be given without more information than we have.

Post 75

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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I remember Adam’s article. That was my first post ever on Solo. Everyone jumped on me just for joking about your claims to chastity, like you were a sensitive upright and proper type! What bull. Now I know you to be a self-described tittie-loving Hooters man.

I get your point, Luke. The equation I mean to accuse you of comes from here, “…if they have the same independence of mind we have and rely on their experience rather than ours…”

It sounds like you imply this: They had no romance until after college (we surmise, for now) and they turned out fine. I had much earlier romance and turned out fine. I am relying upon my experience in advocating allowing the boy liberty, and they are relying upon their experience in imposing their experience on him. See how the two shouldn’t be equated? I would never *impose* my experience on a boy with your romance values. They *are* imposing their experience on a boy who does *not* share your romance values (Neha has said he has “fallen in love” with her (the unnamed girl, not Neha.)

Regarding the effectiveness of moral judgment here. I don’t care about the parents, per se; it’s too late for them. I want the boy and the girl to know that the parents are stupid and there’s no point destroying themselves by obeying for one moment the nonsense those monsters are attempting to impose.

Luke, when does, “it’s their money” end? If he was in love with another boy, and their stance was, “we catch you talking with another boy, any boy, ever, and that’s it for college.” Do they have the technical, political right? I guess, so, but would you then denounce their stupidity? When would you?

Jon
(Edited by Jon Letendre
on 8/29, 1:44pm)


Post 76

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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"I keep seeing the misuse of the key term "force" as if these people had a gun to the young man's head.  They do not.  Force in the political sense is not being used."

Luke, I'm surprized at you (maybe I shouldn't be, though.) You can't see classic political coercion at work here? Coercion _is_ a type of force.


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Post 77

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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Adam wrote:
Ethically, creating a child also creates an objective obligation to pay for the education of that child until the child becomes self-supporting, and it does not create any comparable obligation on the part of the young adult (over 12-13) to obey the parents.
Jon wrote:
I want the boy and the girl to know that the parents are stupid and there’s no point destroying themselves by obeying for one moment the nonsense those monsters are attempting to impose.
Teresa wrote:
You can't see classic political coercion at work here? Coercion _is_ a type of force.
To all three of you, I say: Bullshit!  Pure, utter, complete, unsalvageable, wishful-thinking rubbish.

I do not know how to make myself any more clear.  This is the Objectivist Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold makes the rules.  Whoever has to pick up the tab needs to have full authority about how that tab gets spent.

Jon quipped:
Everyone jumped on me just for joking about your claims to chastity, like you were a sensitive upright and proper type! What bull. Now I know you to be a self-described tittie-loving Hooters man.
Notice that I indulged those particular passions after I became fully independent of my parents.  Not that it is anyone else's business, but I need to write an article contrasting my life with that of the title character in the new hit movie The 40-Year-Old Virgin.  I was not forty when I became sexually active, but I was well into my twenties and, most importantly, living on my own income.  Quite honestly, I do not see any other "right" way to live except by the principle of production before reproduction!

Had I had more liberal parents, I would obviously have lived a different life.  But things are what they are. I consider my parents good people and myself fortunate in many ways.  They assured I had all my basic needs met and were there for me when I needed them.  I have seen truly lousy parents and I do not think this Indian boy's parents qualify as such.

If some of you want to start an international "Trust Fund for Horny Lonely Indian Boys" so they can live independently of their parents, I hereby publicly pledge a one time donation of $10 to your cause.  But I will not condemn the parents for exercising their natural rights to spend their own money their own way.

By the way, Neha, your friend might benefit from reading some books on the subjects of women and romance so he has adequate preparation when he does enter the world of dating.  Being a Man in a Woman's World is a good start, though it aims at Americans.  Perhaps he can locate an Indian equivalent.  Learning from others while he waits will pay him much better than the usual trial-and-error method that ensnares far too many people.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 8/29, 3:40pm)


Post 78

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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"I do not know how to make myself any more clear.  This is the Objectivist Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold makes the rules.  Whoever has to pick up the tab needs to have full authority about how that tab gets spent."

"Full authority?"

So, if they demanded that he remain 5'6" tall, he ought to obey them, because they have to buy his pants and shirts? Or if they demand that his IQ remain at a "normal" 100, he ought to just say "okee-doke" because they have to buy the books?

Some people squander their riches, I suppose, but I don't buy the relativist argument that one type of investment is as good as the next squander.  A child's value development is as important as his nutrition.


Post 79

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

How can it be that you still can’t seem to see that what happened to you turned out fine because of who you are, but would have amounted to spiritual murder or worse if applied to me, or Adam, or others?

Doesn’t matter. As I said before, I don’t care about the parents coming to see what it is they are doing, and I don’t care what you can grasp or not, either.

Your last post did more than I could have hoped for, in terms of showing any young people who might read this just what the issues are and what each side smells like. I sense there are one or two more out there who are not yet sure if they should fight for their lives and values, or roll over. Would you post again, just one more time, please?

Jon

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