The Issue of "Paying Back"

Eddie Wood wrote:

The parents may think that the girl wants to get knocked up and ruin any chances that their son has of achieving a very high educational status and the large paychecks that follow. That would bring great shame and dishonor to the family.

If he has a shred of self-esteem, it will bring similar negatives to himself as well.

Without dragging my family history into this, suffice it to say that I learned early in life:

Do not bite the hand that feeds you.
Remain focused on your life's purpose, e.g., an effective career that actualizes your fullest potential.
Put all other values into the context of (1) and (2).

Despite humorous ribbing from Linz to the contrary, I stay with my initial post on this thread. The desire for love can overshadow the reality of love with its commensurate risks, heartaches, conflicts, clashes, useless baggage, etc. I honestly think it gets overrated and I would encourage any young person to think from the neck up rather than the waist down. "Get on your feet and be your own person, then reconsider your parents' values," I would urge. To do otherwise puts one's long-range self-interest at risk.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 8/26, 7:17am)

Post 41

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 9:51am

I actually agree with Lord Buzzkiller for a change. He offered very good advice in my opinion.

Do not bite the hand that feeds you.
Remain focused on your life's purpose, e.g., an effective career that actualizes your fullest potential.
Put all other values into the context of (1) and (2).

It is so important to look at the long-term effects on one's rational self-interest. There are better things for a fifteen year-old to focus on than a forbidden love, like school for instance. Careers are up at the top of the list of values for many people, and that is fine, for them, not for me.

Michael is my highest value. I am more in love than I ever dreamed possible. What I finally found is a deep and undying love that would not have been possible to me when I was younger because I did not know or love myself enough at that age to truly fall in love and be loved back by the one who is absolutely purrfect for me. purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

It is also good to know that the boy has read Ayn Rand and is questioning the situation. He has a lot to think about. Again, not knowing how serious the romance is and what the possible consequences are, all I can tell him is to do what is in his own best interest.... long-term, not short term. See point 1 above... Do not bite the hand that feeds you (at least until you are able to feed yourself).

Let us know how everything turns out.

Post 42

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 12:16pm

But every love is the one and only, true, everlasting love. Your knowledge that it maybe wasn't, will only come later, by experience.

Forcing someone to give up their highest value is enslavement. Submitting to others at their request that you give up your highest value for a known hell rather than submitting to your own unknown heaven is cowardice, once a coward never a hero.

Stroke the hand that feeds you, humor it, but earn your own food or die of starvation before selling your highest values for a bowl of rice. Integrity.

Post 43

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 1:04pm

S�ren is right. One day Kat will look back and see that hormones played more of role in this Michael thing than she realizes now.

I wonder if that sounds any less offensive to fifteen year old ears.

Jon

Post 44

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 10:53am

He must learn to be patient and wait.
Being calm is the virtue of the braves.
DC

Post 45

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 2:22pm

Jon,

This is a touchy area. At which point does a parent release the reins? And which reins?

Comparing a 15 year old to a fully grown adult is one hell of nice a way to delete context from this issue.

Next, we will be discussing pedophilia again. Hey! Why not? What if this 15 year old falls head over heals in love with a 50 year old?

Same standard?

Michael

Post 46

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 3:02pm

It�s very touchy, Michael. And I�ll tell you why, for my part. I started with my wife about twenty years ago. She was fifteen. I think I was sixteen. Both of us knew we were soul mates�no doubt whatsoever. We had a year or two together before I would go to college. We �freed� one another at that time in order that we may have independent college experiences, and find out if we really were right about each other. We were right.

She moved in with me when she graduated. We got married four years later, kids four years after that.

When I see people counseling this guy to �Grow up,� �Just hormones,� and �Only your first� I see vividly the obliteration of my lover, my kids, my beyond-my-wildest-dreams life with them�and I wanna hit someone!

Jon

Post 47

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 3:13pm

Jon,

Gotcha.

Context is all.

Your story of love is wonderful (albeit a bit exceptional for most 15/16 year-olds) and I wish you all happiness. Still, you did not sacrifice your education and profession for each other - and I do not think Kat is advising sacrifice of the lovers either. Fitting that love into a larger range and context than just range-of-the-moment is what you did and is what my advice to Neha's friends would be (yes, sneak if need be, but do not completely chuck out loving parents and their concern - including education). I will let Kitten speak for herself, but I believe that she would agree with me (almost).

You see, there is more context. Kitten is the mother of a very lovely 15 year old daughter right now.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 8/26, 3:15pm)

Post 48

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 3:23pm

Comparing love to pedophilia is one hell of nice a way to delete context from this issue.

Sex is sex. Love is love.

It would be ok for a 15 year old to fall head over heals in a 50 year old - it would be ok for a 12-year old, or an eight year old... it happens all the time... it would on the other hand not be ok for a 50 year old to fall for a 15-year old, it would not be ok for them to pursue a relationship - it would be a sick 50 year old, and if you would want to include sex it would be a 50 year old criminal.

The Romeo in this story was NOT denied love on rational grounds. If the subject of his love was a 50 year old, a goat, someone charging 50$ an hour, his mother or an ass shaped passionskin dual action vibrating pump donut then it would be a different discussion - but that wasn't the case.

Post 49

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 3:39pm

I�m still mad, so I apologize now for the unjust invective that follows. (Per the Linz system, as long as I apologize each time, it�s all A-OK.)

If Tina is an idiot that cannot be trusted with this, fine. But Neha has presented us with the opposite of an idiot.

Education. Education. Education. Where did Neha say that this guy�s education will not be supported or that he otherwise will not be able to get one if caught with her?

God, am I mad.

Jon

Post 50

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 4:30pm

I do agree with Michael. I am just not one who would explicitly tell a teen to disobey his parents.  I realize that they may just turn around and tell their folks to go scratch, but I'm not going to be the one to tell them to do that.  Why would someone tell him to disobey his parents if they have been reasonable so far. I don't know what the arguments from the parents are, but the fact that it is both parents objecting rather than one says to me that it may be an underlying reason for their doubts... a reason that they are being "irrational."

Jon, I'm really glad you shared your story. I love happy endings. You married your high school sweetheart. You lived the dream. You beat incredible odds.  Finding soulmate at such an early age is truly rare, beautiful and quite inspiring.   I hope you stay together... forever.

Back then did your parents expressly forbid you to see her? If so, how did you react? I'm sure they eventually accepted it.   Your story is the exception and not the rule. You both finished school and married when you were ready.   I hope this young couple also takes the rational approach. I never said the boy should dump her, only that he should check his premises, consider what is at risk, (is he sacrificing an education or just having phone privileges taken away) and proceed carefully from there. It is his life and his decision to make. I am also trying to keep in consideration the fact that they are in India and not America.

My questions to Neha, again, are how serious are the objections from the parents and what are they based on. That is the context.

(edit - I never said anyone was an idiot or that I mistrusted Tina. A personal attack on my daughter was clearly uncalled for!)

(Edited by katdaddy on 8/26, 5:27pm)

Post 51

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 4:45pm

Jon,

Tina is not an idiot. Enough.

Michael

Post 52

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 9:04pm

OK. Enough.

Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 1:22am

ARHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

aaah - that felt good to let out...

Post 54

Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 6:23am

Enough what? Who's Tina??

Post 55

Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 8:54am

Tina is Kat's daughter, also the age of 15.

Post 56

Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 10:18am

Tina is my daughter. She is a wonderful 15 year-old. She is extremely creative, intelligent, is quite mature, and she also reads Rand.

However, this discussion is not about her; it is about a forbidden teenage relationship. My position is that I personally value honesty very highly and I don't encourage people to lie or sneak around. Especially reckless teenagers who could be playing with their future. They are still dependent on their parents and at that age, trust is just too fragile. By lying and sneaking around and asking friends to cover for them with more lies, they aren't helping their cause much, just making more of a mess. I don't know how serious the consequences are so I advise caution and that they attempt to work things out with the parents.

I know the romance is soooooooo cute and all, and being shamelessly in love myself, I really want to be on their side.... but it smells like teen rebellion more than love. There is a slim chance that I am wrong, but if someone is playing with fire, I will not fan the flames. If I am being too much of a buzzkill for people.... oh well.

Neha is still refusing to give context to this, just having hissy fits. She seems to be looking for permission to either cover for these teens, and it is very possible that she may just be the girl herself. We don't really know. I just won't be the one sanctioning what these kids are doing.

Post 57

Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 10:20am

Aaah, I see. Thanks.

Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 10:33am

Neha,

My point is that both of them recognize the risks they are taking, but are enough aware of their own strength thus making it an acceptable risk. The boy isn't going to get the girl pregnant, no matter what. But why does the girl have to prove herself to the parents? And of course the girl, (and the boy,) being the reckless daredevils that they are, do not care at all - in the absolute sense - about how the parents may see her, so long as they get what they want (in this case, each other).

The girl doesn't have to prove herself to his parents. But if he and she were somehow to eventually get his parents to like her, then seeing each other would be a great deal less risky.

What kind of woman does the boy's parents want their son to be with? What kind of lifestyle, relationship, future does the parents want for him? If the boy can show them that he is capable of achieving all of this while being with this particular girl... or at least achieving their goals/desires to a reasonable degree... then maybe they will have more reason to accept the relationship.

How can the boy help his parents see how great the girl is? How can the girl help his parents see how great she is?

Post 59

Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:02pm