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Post 20

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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“This may be your first love, but it probably won't be your last.” (Tabby)

Not one of us is guaranteed to still be alive at the end of the week. Pursue your love.

Jon

Post 21

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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Perfect parents would not put the kid in a situation like this.

I would go for the girl, and be honest to my parents, and accept whatever consequences that might have.

(i have been told that i, at the age of 3, was given a candy by my mom - she then told me that "to deserve the candy, i had to behave", with no hesitation i removed the candy from my mouth, and handed it back to her - that my 3-year-old self did that still makes me smile)

Well raised children will stand up for who they are, they will learn from their parents as long as those parents do not undermine the trust by irrational rulings.

Post 22

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 6:19pmSanction this postReply
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Teenagers are soooo much fun!  What a roller coaster...WEEEEEEEEEE!! (I had three at one time not too long ago!)

You mean a manage a quatre?

Ooh er, shocking Teresa! ;-)


Post 23

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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THANK you, everybody. I'm deeelighted with the responses.

Kat- ARHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! I'm not the girl!!!!!!!!!!
                        Tabby - The parents think the girl is evil because they think she's just going to "use" him, if you know what I mean, that is, just for the sake of a casual fling. Of course their intentions are good and all, but I think they should just leave the boy alone and let him live life his way, for heaven's sake. Ok, so maybe hormones trump reason and all that, but since there's no serious physical relations between the two (other than kissing, for heaven's sake), none of them is going to be hurt. My point is that both of them recognize the risks they are taking, but are enough aware of their own strength thus making it an acceptable risk. The boy isn't going to get the girl pregnant, no matter what. But why does the girl have to prove herself to the parents? And of course the girl, (and the boy,) being the reckless daredevils that they are, do not care at all - in the absolute sense - about how the parents may see her, so long as they get what they want (in this case, each other). And as someone else mentioned, how are they assured of life? I hate to bring in this touch of non-absolutism, though it isn't really that, but tomorrow a goddamn tsunami could just come and flood the life out of them, and then their life would be a waste, with nothing at all to speak of. No social issues come in at all. No caste things and all. That's what I meant by "ideal" - the parents are otherwise very unbiased, etc. Their claim against the boy is that he does what he wants to do, when he wants to do it, and that he lives in absolute freedom, which, of course, is what the girl loves.

J - Yes, the boy may decide it, but he has the character to know that even if he thinks the price was too high, there's nothing he can do about it then, and that certainly he thought it was worth it when he was doing it.



MEM - all I can say is - better to have lived and lost, than having not lived at all.



Adam - as earlier stated, the boys' parents are absolutely not open to rationality.



Teresa - the boy's parents had a love marriage. They proudly relate their own adventures to their children, yet irrationally oppose it when the boy does something similar, yet with a much lesser magnitude.
Incidentally, to those who have been fortunate enough to read The Passion of Ayn Rand, what was AR like as a teen?



Jon - YES. I agree completely.



Soren - Wow. That's what I would have done. My terms, and none else.



Best,
Neha


Post 24

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Neha, I crossed half the world for my love, knowing how difficult a long-distance relationship between people from two different countries might be. I deemed the price worth it. If the lovers you're talking about think their love is worth the price, then they should let nothing stop them.

Post 25

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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"You mean a manage a quatre?"

Marcus, you're a dork, you know that?  :cp   I'll try to be a little more exacting in my verbage next time, OKAY???  I'll do this just to satisfy your need for precision. Just for you, Marcus!

Neha -

" Teresa - the boy's parents had a love marriage. They proudly relate their own adventures to their children, yet irrationally oppose it when the boy does something similar, yet with a much lesser magnitude."

Then I really don't understand them at all, and this kid has all of my sympathy. This kind of control over one's children isn't healthy, and it's going to end up backfiring on them. No wonder he's sneaking around!  They need a new hobby.

 Seriously, what kind of parents really want to have that much of control over a kid?  They're creating a whole lot of work for themselves, and what kind of payoff are they expecting?? A mindless lapdog, maybe?   "Letting go" is one of parenting's great pleasures. Geesh! 

"Incidentally, to those who have been fortunate enough to read The Passion of Ayn Rand, what was AR like as a teen?"

Neha, do you have a copy of the book?  If not, I'll start a collection to get a copy to you. ;)

All I can remember reading about AR's teen years is that she was a very serious girl. I do remember something about she and her sister trying to get the same boy to fall for them, which I thought was kinda funny. I haven't read it in years.


Post 26

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
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I actually disagree with just about every answer that has been posted so far because I don't think we have enough information. Objectivists always have an answer for every situation. It is rationalistic to try to give advice at a distance on something like this without knowing the parents, knowing the girl, and above all knowing the boy and what he is like at such a young age.

Are the parents actually right?
Is it true love?
What will the parents do in response?
Will they find out and he be prevented anyway?

Lots of questions. [ Normally, I agree more with this: "hormones trump reason in the teen years" than with this: "15 is as good an age as any". ]

To give advice you need to have some knowledge of all the above to see the consequences, to see where the different choices lead. Don't give advice where it can be harmful.

Phil

Post 27

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Phil
hormones trump reason in the teen years

Why is this bad? Personally i thank evolution for making it that way.

How are we to recognize when we have good things in life, if we are not allowed to test it against something less good.

I could understand it if we were talking about something damaging to the boy or his surroundings, drugs, violence and whatnot, but love... it needs to be experienced, not rationalized, it needs to be felt - the joy, the pain, the silliness - laisser faire. Then later, when the newness wears off let rational thought analyze it to death - or carry it to a new level.

I think it evil to place love, as experienced by others, under any kind of moderation, no matter if the kid is 4, 15 or 69.

Post 28

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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Phil, this is a sense-of-life quandary, more info. is beside the point.

Just like Night of January 17th, the evidence could go either way.

There’s plenty of info for this exercise and it’s evenly split, too. Note that the responses are about 50/50 between ‘Grow up. Hormones. This is only your first,’ and ‘it’s your life.’

Jon

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Post 29

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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Phil, I know how much you rely on and respect details. It's one of the things I most admire about you.
But we're kinda enjoying with this Romeo/Juliet teenage drama thing going on in India, so shut up, will ya?? 

I say that with genuine affection, of course. I honestly adore you, but my dad will kill me if he finds out.... :.(


Post 30

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:30pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa, you're not thinking of telling your father what we have going between us, are you?

After all you're only two...

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Post 31

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:34pmSanction this postReply
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Neha, 

Whooooooops... my bad.  My advice was being addressed to you because most of the time when people ask Tabby for advice for a "friend"  they are almost always referring to their own self in the third person.  It happens all the time on the Brady Bunch.  Sorry about that.    ;-)

Anyhoo,  if the family is not subscribing to backwards traditions such as arranged marriages and have always shown understanding towards the son's best interests in the past, something has probably raised a red flag... (or raised something else, if you know what I mean.)  I hate to sound like a clucking old hen, but since you said they are reckless, I am assuming they are flaunting their rebelliousness, and the parents are now trying to rein him in so he doesn't get hurt or lose his innocence.  Not being close enough to the situation to access the maturity of the couple involved, I certainly wouldn't tell a 15-year-old boy to pick the girl over his family or the family over the girl.  That would be reckless.  Like I said before, they need to get to know her in order to accept her.  In the end, it is the boy's life and his decision.  He has to live with the consequences, I don't.

Frankly, it does sound like raging  hormones to me and as long as he is under the parents' roof he has to respect their rules. What consequences are actually involved here if he pursues this girl?  For example, is dipping his wick worth sacrificing a college education.  In my opinion they are too young to be seriously in love and too young for nookie qua nookie.  I realize that many do not share my fairly conservative view on this and may not understand considering my own rather public love life.  I'll just chalk it up to life experience.   Maybe Luke can help him out with a cost/benefit analysis showing how a teenage romance is or is not worth sacrificing parental trust, financial support or a college education.

I do hope for a happy ending for this young romance.  True love is simply the most wonderful thing in the world.

Tabby


(p.s.  Matthew, I am dying to hear your story.  Can you post something about you long-distance romance over in the kitchen.  I love happy endings)



Post 32

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Katdaddy, I'm working on an article at the moment, along with a short story in which the hero I've used in my writing is a family man who has allowed himself to forget that creating one's values is not enough; they have to be preserved as well (It's called "Render Unto Caesar"). I'm just glad that Ayn Rand isn't around to object to my paraphrasing John Galt in my wedding vows. :)
(Edited by Matthew Graybosch
on 8/24, 6:10pm)


Post 33

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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"After all you're only two..."

Yeah Phil, you're right. It's so not worth it.

Back to the sand box with me.

Neha,

When you say, "reckless," what do you mean? Irresponsible reckless? Or "I don't give a damn what they think" reckless? I'm hoping it's the later.


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Post 34

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:51amSanction this postReply
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I've only just read this thread, & am splitting my sides with laughter. I have no advice to give, since I agree with whoever said there's not enough information. My atavistic impulse agrees with Jon Letendre—go for it! But be prepared to pay for it. The belly-laughs that are threatening to kill me, though, are in response to this, from Luke:

My views vary somewhat from those of Ayn Rand, perhaps because romance falls near the bottom of my overall values hierarchy. I disagreed with Romeo and Juliet as well, the brats: "Grow up!"

Hysterical! Hahahahahaha! Poor Luke hasn't caught up with Franklin Covey's latest: Star-crossed but Daggerless. The Twelve-Point Guide to Family-Disapproved Love that Makes Suicide Unnecessary and Twerpish. Complete with flow-charts & spreadsheets. Order here:

http://solohq.com/Articles/Perigo/Romance_and_Rationalism_Revisited_and_Revised.shtml

Also, glad to see Coates is taking my advice & getting out more. Not sure about two-year-olds, but Namblaphilia has had some high-profile defenders here of late. Guess I can't ask for everything. :-)

Linz


Post 35

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 2:51amSanction this postReply
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What is the non-opinion information required?

Post 36

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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"splitting my sides with laughter...Poor Luke... glad to see Coates is taking my advice & getting out more.." [Linz]

Since I have argued against incivility, I just want to say that the above sort of banter, teasing, poking fun in good humor is -not- what I'm opposed to.

It keeps Solo lively and I don't object when I'm the object of (good-natured) humor. I know many Objectivists are thin-skinned and can't take this kind of Solo rough-house, bruising style, But why should this be a problem, insofar as it doesn't get in the way of or replace serious discussion. (Sometimes it does, or goes over the line.)

But I don't think -that- would be a reason to leave, bear grudges, get angry and escalate conflicts, etc.

Phil

PS, Linz, sometimes you're actually funny.

Post 37

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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Neha: What is the boy to do?

The boy at this point is playing Russian Rolette with his life.

His parents seem to be very   irrational and not able to rear the boy anymore.

 His only alternative is to read the Fountainhead.

Best CD.

 


Post 38

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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The girl may very well use him, but then again they might both be trying to "use" each other.

Some girls, and I emphasize some, have fairy-tale dreams about white picket fences and big families where the husband brings home the money *and fresh flowers* while she bakes cakes all day and raises kids. The husband will sing verses to her praise every night and they will all live happily ever after.

Some guys, and I emphasize some, imagine that all girls are pristine, pure virgins, except when they get them into bed at which point they turn in to mega-sluts, but only for their beau, of course.

The parents may think that the girl wants to get knocked up and ruin any chances that their son has of achieving a very high educational status and the large paychecks that follow. That would bring great shame and dishonor to the family.

I have no idea what he should do much less if anything I've said makes any sense.



Post 39

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 4:08amSanction this postReply
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Er, Ciro, he has.


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