About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 27Page 7Forward one pageLast Page


Post 540

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,

You raise two  very interesting questions and I will try to answer them briefly.

Taking the second first, you want, and I don't blame you, a book on proper scientific methodology. And you are correct in your assessment of the existing work that it is all directed at, to the best of my knowledge (not being familiar with the actual content of any of the tapes and videos sited) with criticising errors in other points of view. Personally, I find tapes, etc. useful and productive of thought even if I can't write in the margins and even if they are primarily critical. But that is a matter of taste, perhaps, and my willingness to live with what I've got. (The appendix to IOE is, of course, in a book)

But all of that is tangential to your original post, which did not include this constraint.Your original point was that the delimiting of philosophy to axioms and the facts derived from them made philosophy of science and philosophy of law impossible because it didn't allow for facts not derived from the axioms, which science, in a surprising way, often does.

To counter your claim I denied your opening sentence. I deny that "any conclusion that does not depend on non-axiomatic facts is derived from axioms only" I denied it on the grounds that there is no such distinction in Objectivism. If you believe that there is please identify a non-axiomatic fact and an axiomatic fact within Objectivism.  The identification of Objectivism's axiomatic concepts and the formulation of them in propositional form ("'existence is identity" and "consciousness is identification" for example) is hierarchically prior to but chronologically post the actual discovery of any given fact. The concepts "existence", "identity" and "consciousness" can only be formed chronologically after we have some evidence of them. But hierarchically, the concepts are implicit in any fact we discover and identify. That's what makes it possible for me to make my claim. It doesn't matter what facts we start with chronologically, they all support the fact that A is A.

And I mean any and all facts -- at present and not yet known. A is A is true of any A, even X (see the appendix to IOE for a discussion of this). If survival and flourishing depends on choosing X, no matter what X is, then one should do X if one wants to survive and flourish.

Now, perhaps you are thinking of mathematical and or deductive systems in which one states one's starting point (a triangle equals 180 degrees) and sees how many facts can be deductively derived from it. If one introduces a curved surface (a 'non-axiomatic' fact) the "axiomatic" premise is no longer true as it stands. And of course that's true. But it doesn't change anything about what I said. In fact, it constitutes one more piece of evidence that A is A. (a flat surface is a flat surface and has these characteristics, a curved surface is a curved surface and has these characteristics which are not the same as  those of the flat surface) In fact the discovery of these differences does not represent a challenge either to mathematics or philosophy.

I gave two similar examples in my post. Here is another. Suppose we discovered that altruistic acts of self-sacrifice were required for each individual man's survival and flourishing (will miracles never cease?). If this were what it takes, it would constitute the SELFISH  advice to be perfectly self-sacrificial that would confirm Objectivism's egoistic meta-ethics. Indeed the reasoning for the meta-ethics and for the advise would be substantially the same. Why does man need ethics? would still be the first question, and the answer would still be the same: because survival is a choice for man. (At least until we become indestructible robots) Etc.

And so on, I believe, for any "alternative universe" you care to name. Ayn Rand is not Spinoza or Descartes. Her axiomatic concepts and their propositional formulation are not and are not meant to be starting points for deductive  conclusions.

The second point of attack was simply to point out that philosophy of science is being done and that it will take time for your specific issues to be addressed. But it is time, not any delimiting of philosophy, that is the culprit.

If this doesn't do the job, perhaps you could name a fact that might qualify as a "non-axiomatic" fact that would affect the philosophy qua philosophy.

Tom


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 541

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom,

You suggest, ...perhaps you could name a fact that might qualify as a "non-axiomatic" fact that would affect the philosophy qua philosophy. ...

OK. The fact from cognitive psychology that any misinterpretation of a percept ("perceptual illusion") requires misinterpretation of context.

Suppose illusions were possible without miscueing of context. Consider the implications for epistemology.


Post 542

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,

I'll have to consider this for a bit, but as a first approximation I doubt that we'd have the concept "illusion".  Since, if I understand your example, there would be no contrast object. I.E. all percepts would be construed as having the correct context

In fact, other than that, I think the whole subject here reduces to Objectivism's theory of perceptual forms.

If that doesn't satisfy, give me more info about what you have in mind. 

Tom


Post 543

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom,

Yes, I did have something specific in mind when I wrote, "Suppose illusions were possible without miscueing of context. Consider the implications for epistemology."

Measurement is comparison in a context controlled to eliminate the possibility of illusion. The specific fact of cognitive psychology that the possibility of illusion can be eliminated by controlling the context is what makes measurements the fundamental building blocks of objective identification. Take away that specific scientific fact, and everything in epistemology that depends on measurement being the fundamental building block of objective identification would become ungrounded. Including the formation of concepts by omitting the values of measurements, and so on.

The core of Objectivist epistemology depends on that specific fact of cognitive psychology.



(Edited by Adam Reed
on 9/28, 11:40pm)


Post 544

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,

I think you're mistaken about the relationship between the nature of measurement and the epistemological theory of "measurement omission" in the formation of concepts.

Have you taken your speculation to anyone more versed in science and Objectivism? You might try the Forum4AynRandFans.

In the meantime, let me think out loud here. Dangerous business on a forum, but here goes.

On a purely philosophical basis:

First question: why does -- indeed is it true that -- measurement is a comparison that requires a  context controlled to eliminate the possibility of  illusion? Why is illusion an issue?

First, measurement is a comparison -- of a known quantity against an unknown quantity of the same characteristic. (see IOE pg 7 revised and expanded version for Rand's discussion).

But this is not  what happens in the formation of concepts. When I am forming the concept "table" it is not the case that I take out a ruler of any kind and measure the top and legs and compare them. The idea of "measurement omission" presupposes the concept "measurement" and thus the possibility of performing the operation just alluded to, but it is not the operation itself. (see IOE  pg 11 et seq for Rand's discussion)

Second question: what is a perceptual illusion? Well, without looking in a dictionary, an illusion is a perceptual "mistake." "Illusion" is a relational concept -- like all awareness. The object is the way it is (A is A) and our perceptual apparatus is the way it is.But our perceptual apparatus in relation to the object provides incomplete or (in a case like the bent stick in water) complete information about a characteristic (refracted light) for which we have only perceptual evidence.

Take the two line illusion. Looks something like this: <--> >--<. I'm not entirely sure what characteristic of the lines or the eyes causes the illusion, perhaps it is the phenomenon of gestalt boundaries (my words for the fact that the entire object includes the wedges and it is difficult to perceptually isolate the lines), but typically we see the two line segments as differing in length. Thus our unaided perception gives us an inaccurate measurement. How, ultimately, do we know the measurement is inaccurate? We take a ruler and measure the lines in isolation -- i.e. ignoring the gestalt boundaries provided by the wedges.

But, of course, if we include the wedges our perception was accurate. The length of each object (each 'illusion') IS different.

So perhaps a better formulation would be: accurate measurement is a comparison that requires a  context in which the possibility of illusion is taken into account.

 So, if I am to even arrive at the concept 'illusion' (hierarchically) I must know that a difference exists between an accurate  and inaccurate (perceptual) measurement. That is, the concept of "illusion" presupposes the possibility of contextual miscues. It is, in fact, in reality, impossible to have an illusion (and therefore to form the concept) in the absence of contextual miscues. It would be like imagining the bent stick in water phenomenon in the absence of the phenomena associated with light in relation to our visual mechanism.

I note that the absence of the phenomenon of contextual miscues (if that is, indeed, a proper characterization of the relationship between the object and any given perceptual mechanism -- is "color blindness" the result of a contextual miscue?) and the resulting inability to form the concept "illusion" and the resulting absence of the need to take them into account -- were that the scientific fact as you postulate -- would not affect my ability as a conceptual being to form concepts by means of  "measurement omission" as articulated by Rand.

In short, accurate measurement is not required to say of  the height of the legs of a table  "the height must exist in some quantity, but may exist in any quantity." Any quantity includes ones in which the measurement is inaccurate for any reason -- influence of temperature on the length of the ruler, gestalt phenomena, blindness (Helen Keller), or any contextual miscue.

Bottom line, I fail to see how the postulated new scientific fact -- even if it were possible -- would effect the core of Objectivist epistemology.

The bottom line reason is that concept formation does not require actual, much less accurate, measurements to perform as Rand's theory postulates. An other way of putting this is to say that the fundamental building block of Objectivist epistemology is the concept of measurement, which requires that measurements must exist in some quantity but may exist in any quantity (accurate or not). Science, of course, requires accurate measurement

Beyond that, I am unable to go at present. But I would welcome knowing your objections if you have them.

Thanks for the opportunity to chew on Objectivist epistemology for a while.

Tom




Post 545

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 10:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom,

Just a slight parentheses here. You keep plugging Forum4AynRandFans. The only thread of theirs I read all the way through was the one on the Valliant book - and that was some time ago. The level of discussion did not impress me - mostly negative opinions of the Brandens and sundry superficial pot shots - nothing more.

I might look at one of the more technical threads when I have time.

But I wonder. Do you plug Solo over there the way you plug them over here?

Michael


Post 546

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

Not particularly plugging forum4 though I note you may be missing something.
I find the "who said this" feature very good (a quiz with history of philosophy insight) which, unfortunately, disappears when finished. I'm looking forward to Burgess Laughlin's study group on Aristotle's Poetics.

The reason I "plugged" the site to Adam was very specific.

Don't "plug" Solo but do mention it from time to time. Not always in a bad light.

Quite honestly, I find a lot of what goes on here boring because it fails to engage the  philosophy on its own terms, in my judgement. (See Phil Coates' comments on this score) And when it does, the level of argument is not nearly at the level that the last few posts from Adam reach. This discussion with Adam -- not the original thread -- is the most exciting thing I've had the chance to do, despite my having a lot to say about James' book.

Was there a "ARIan" or "Randroid" implication in your question?

Tom


Post 547

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom, you asked,
Was there a "ARIan" or "Randroid" implication in your question?
Nah. Not even close.

I'm thinking a lot about double standards these days, though. That is one of the things I have particularly found boring in life - anywhere and everywhere. That was one of the major reasons (among several) that I left the USA years ago. In Brazil double standards are more "in your face" and not disguised behind the hypocrisy of technicalities. More my style of facing life.

Anyway, I'm here in the USA now, and for some reason, these days I keep thinking about this boring matter...

Like you, I usually seek exciting subjects to use my mind on, so this is a mystery.

Michael


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 548

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom,

I can't take the time right now to respond to a posting as lengthy as yours - indeed, I first have to decide which of your points are essential and which can be left aside, at least for now.

Ayn Rand's choice of measurement as the fundamental building block of identification was a big breakthrough in epistemology - one that I think can't be appreciated without paying some attention (1) to the history of problems that she solved by this breakthrough, and (2) the need for such a solution in the methodology of science. Rand was probably made aware of the latter by, among other eminent scientists in her circle, Robert Efron (the pioneer of the cognitive revolution in neuroscience) and economists Reisman, Greenspan, Anderson; and others. The other discussion fora that you have mentioned lack the presence of working scientists from disciplines in which further methodological progress demands progress in epistemology, for which Ayn Rand's work is a useful foundation. SOLO is not perfect - I particularly miss the participation of Hong Zhang, whose insights were particularly important to me before she left SOLO - but I can't think of any other forum with the needed critical mass of active scientists. Is Hong Zhang, or someone of comparable stature, participating is some other forum now? If so, I'll have reason to look there.

As for the rest - it will take me some time to identify the essential points in a posting as lengthy as yours. I intend to re-start the discussion in a new thread when/if I succeed.


Post 549

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,

Thanks for your thoughtful points. A few years back Ken Livingston gave a talk at IOS on the psychological basis of measurement omission and concluded from his studies that indeed this is something that humans do. File folder concept formation is an interesting case because it is one area where psychology and philosophical theory of knowledge dovetail nicely.There are other  thinking modes such as pattern recognition and visualization which in many cases are as valuable or more valuable than concept formation.

The places where psychological theories of learning and philosophical theories of knowledge do and do not intersect is an exciting area of inquiry that exemplifies your call for progress in philosophy of science.

Jim


Post 550

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,

I have some tentative comments on your interim post, but will await the start of a new thread.

I do have an initial question, which can perhaps be a jumping off point.

What are the sciences for which methodological work remains and what are the problems to be addressed?

Also, given my post and this response, I need to know what you have in mind by "measurement as the fundamental building block of identification?"  Given my current understanding, I think this is a very misleading (I mean literally that it leads in the wrong direction, not that you are trying to do so) formulation. As I'm thinking of it now, it seems to imply that in the process of identifying an entity conceptually I get out my measuring tools. Perhaps I do, but I'm not clear that this is an epistemological issue. It IS a methodological issue, but those issues would seem to yield a solution by applying already established epistemological tools to the specific science involved.

Quantum mechanics is one such area. While not claiming to be a quantum physicist, I think it's very clear that we can identify quantum phenomena  quite accurately despite (or maybe because of) our inability to accurately measure more than one vector at a time (please correct me if I've got this wrong). This inability has always struck me as a methodological problem with no backward philosophical implications -- particularly for epistemology.

Do you see it otherwise, and if so what and how?

Tom



Post 551

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom Rowland wrote:

The bottom line reason is that concept formation does not require actual, much less accurate, measurements to perform as Rand's theory postulates. An other way of putting this is to say that the fundamental building block of Objectivist epistemology is the concept of measurement, which requires that measurements must exist in some quantity but may exist in any quantity (accurate or not). Science, of course, requires accurate measurement.
Your first sentence is correct, and I add that it generally doesn't require measurement at all. About your second sentence, not even the concept of measurement is required. Children form numerous concepts without having the slightest notion of what measurement is.

The fundamental building block of concept formation is quality, or attribute. Before measuring anything, one must firstly identify what kind of attribute it is. For example, length is an attribute that can be measured in inches (or a similar unit). Of course, there are many attributes that we do not know how to measure.

Yes, science requires measurement. What measurement allows is *more precise* identification.


Post 552

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom,

You write, "I mean literally that it leads in the wrong direction" ....

I don't think that you can ground the proposition that a direction which you have not explored is a "wrong direction."


Post 553

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom,

That a measurement must exist in some quantity, but the exact quantity is not necessary for identifying similar and dissimilar extents. I think this is what Adam meant by his statement about Ayn Rand's epistemology and why it was so revolutionary.

Eddie

Post 554

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 5:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
James wrote:
>File folder concept formation is an interesting case because it is one area where psychology and philosophical theory of knowledge dovetail nicely

James,

Just to get Rand's proposed files/folders distinction clear in my own mind, a while ago I wondered if anyone could suggest a epistemological "file" that was *not* also a folder. No-one seemed to be able to come up with one at the time. Do you have any thoughts on what constitutes one?

- Daniel

Post 555

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 10:31pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam, I have to take you to task here:

===========
I don't think that you can ground the proposition that a direction which you have not explored is a "wrong direction."
===========

This statement is internally-invalid. Think of a children's book analogy of finding grandma's house in the woods. If you find it, then you know the right direction; by which all other directions -- even those you have not explored -- are henceforth wrong directions. The "right" serves as the standard, and logical genesis, of the "wrong" (right "creates" wrong). Once you know what's right, you automatically know that all contrary alternatives are wrong.

Ed





Post 556

Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:03amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

This is true only if there is only one result out there for you to find. But in an inquiry, one result from one path does not mean that another path could not have led to an even more useful result. The only way to know whether or not a direction of inquiry is useful is to find out where it leads.


Post 557

Friday, September 30, 2005 - 8:47amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Alright Adam, good point.

Maybe the analogy doesn't apply here, but maybe others would -- categorical analogies, where whole sections of "directions" are successfully conceptualized. I just didn't think that the "measurement is the precondition for knowing" hypothesis has been layed out well enough (or 'tested'). If it had, then I'd feel better -- I'd integrate it as a new theory, and no longer a mere hypothesis.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 9/30, 8:48am)


Post 558

Friday, September 30, 2005 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,

I think the rest of the post to which you refer was a small effort to explore, and a big invitation to explore further.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Hope you'll find some time to start the exploration.

Tom


Post 559

Friday, September 30, 2005 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
James,

I don't understand what distinction you're making between "concept formation" and "pattern recognition" and "visualization". Do you believe that they all belong to the same genus -- "thinking modes?"  And if so,what are the differentia?  Some definitions would help me, if you want to  take the time.

Tom


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 27Page 7Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.