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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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This question was addressed by Nathaniel Branden in The Objectivist Newsletter (January 1963), wherein he wrote:

The concept of the 'unknowable' does not mean: that which is unknown at present. It means: that which, by its nature, cannot be known. To claim that a thing is unknowable entails a logical contradiction.

To claim that a thing is unknowable, one must first know that it exists--but then one already has knowledge of it, to that extent. Further, to pronounce a thing unknowable, one would have to know enough about it to justify one pronouncement--but then the pronouncement and the justification would be in contradiction. If one makes such a pronouncement, or any pronouncement, without knowledge to justify it, then this is plain irrationalism.

The assertion that a thing is unknowable carries the necessary epistemological implication that the speaker is omniscient--that he has total knowledge of everything in the universe and, from his unique vantage point, is able to proclaim that certain things are inherently beyond the reach of man's knowledge and understanding.

The idea of the 'unknowable' is indefensible--and its spokesmen can have no other purpose than to permit themselves flights into mysticism: to permit themselves beliefs for which, they have no justification."


In his post on the "Benefits and Hazards" thread, Robert Malcom stated: "To exist presupposes perceivability - to claim that something might exist without means of perceiving it is fantasy." This may seem to be essentially the same as Branden's position, but it is not.

Branden argues that it is irrational to claim that some particular thing is unknowable because you would first have to know enough about it to make that claim, in which case, it would no longer be unknowable. But does this mean that to exist presupposes being knowable? Does it mean that to claim that something might exist without a means of knowing it is fantasy? No, all it means is that one cannot claim that some particular thing is unknowable, because one would have to possess enough knowledge to make the claim. It certainly does not follow that something cannot exist which by its nature (and the nature of our cognition) is inherently beyond our ability to grasp and identify. A thing's existence does not require that it be knowable, even if the claim that it is unknowable requires it. Still less does Branden's position imply that to exist presupposes perceivability--that to claim that something might exist without a means of perceiving it is fantasy--for something can be known inferentially without being perceivable such as, for example, quanta or photons.

Moreover, even Branden's claim that it is irrational to claim that something is unknowable cannot be justified, for one can know that something is unknowable by inference. For example, I can know that I'll never be able to know every word that Napolean uttered during his lifetime. I can know that I cannot know this, because it is the kind of thing that is unknowable.

- Bill

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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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Nicely put, Bill.

I think if Branden's point was to illustrate the folly of mysticism it may have been more clearly illustrated if he claimed that all events have a cause and effect reaction, bound by the laws of nature. After all, to say that all things are knowable speaks only to our ability to perceive them- either through our senses or through mental cognition. However, because we have certain mental and physical limitations, it's unlikely that all things can be understood by us.

However, this understanding of our own limitations is no blank check to revert to mysticism. It simply admits that our physical and cognitive tools have some blind spots and therefore requires that we use logic to its fullest capacity, even when we have to stop short of a complete understanding.


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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent point, Bill.

Rand created a similar false alternative about measurement in ITOE (p. 39 of 2nd edition). She wrote:
If anything were actually "immeasurable," it would bear no relationship of any kind to the rest of the universe, it would not affect or be affected by anything else in any manner whatever, it would exact no causes and bear no consequences -- in short, it would not exist.
She seems to equate "immeasurable" with infinite and hold that another meaning is inconceivable. But there is another quite valid meaning -- an attribute that we recognize but do not know how to measure.



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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 6:00pmSanction this postReply
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For example, I can know that I'll never be able to know every word that Napolean uttered during his lifetime.
 
This is the kind of simple example that instantly refutes pages and pages of vague philosophical mumbo jumbo.


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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 6:00pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks to Scott and Merlin for their compliments on my analysis of Branden's argument against the unknowable.

Merlin added, "Rand created a similar false alternative about measurement in ITOE (p. 39 of 2nd edition). She wrote: 'If anything were actually "immeasurable," it would bear no relationship of any kind to the rest of the universe, it would not affect or be affected by anything else in any manner whatever, it would exact no causes and bear no consequences -- in short, it would not exist.'"

I think that what Rand may have been referring to here are already existing objects of our awareness. She may have been saying that these cannot be immeasurable, in which case, her statement would make a lot more sense. But if she meant that nothing in existence could ever be incapable of being measured, then she is in the same camp as Branden.

Merlin wrote, "She seems to equate 'immeasurable' with infinite and hold that another meaning is inconceivable. But there is another quite valid meaning -- an attribute that we recognize but do not know how to measure."

Right, and I think Rand might say that the fact that we do not at present know how to measure it does not mean that it is impervious to being measured. The problem with her statement, however, is that the fact that something is impervious to being measured does not mean that it exacts no consequences and therefore does not exist.

- Bill



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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 6:28pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "I can know that I'll never be able to know every word that Napolean uttered during his lifetime."

Daniel O'Connor replied, "This is the kind of simple example that instantly refutes pages and pages of vague philosophical mumbo jumbo."

Thanks, Daniel. I think there was an element of rationalism in the early development of Objectivism, which Peikoff has been trying to correct, but I don't think that he has successfully weeded out all of the problems. Nor do I think that he would ever challenge anything that was written in The Objectivist Newsletter or The Objectivist. If Rand said it or approved it, then it must be true and we must find a way to defend it. Either that or it must not be considered part of her philosophy. Her article on why no rational woman could ever want to be president is a good example. Her view on this is not considered by her staunchest defenders to be part of her philosophy, even though it expresses not her personal preferences but her view of what is rational for woman qua woman. If the latter is not part of her philosophy, then I can't imagine what would be. And she could be right, despite the fact that such a view is no longer merely politically incorrect; it is politically unthinkable.

- Bill

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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 6:54pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

It is very interesting to see you on the side of the open-ended metaphysics approach now (in terms of predominance over epistemology). I heartily agree with the main part of your conclusions. To be fair to Nathaniel Branden, however, you cited a 1963 essay. Here is a quote from his 1997 book, The Art of Living Consciously:

Metaphysically, mind and matter are different. But if they are different in every respect, the problem of explaining their interaction seems insuperable. How can mind influence matter and matter influence mind if they have absolutely nothing in common? And yet, that such reciprocal influence exists seems inescapable...

Without going into details, I will suggest a possible way out. There is nothing inherently illogical—nothing that contradicts the rest of our knowledge—in positing some underlying reality of which both matter and consciousness are manifestations. The advantage of such a hypothesis is that it provides a means to resolve a problem that has troubled philosophers for centuries—”the mind-body problem,” the problem of accounting for the interaction of consciousness and physical reality. If they have a common source, then they do have a point of commonality that makes their ability to interact less puzzling. How we would test this hypothesis, or provide justification for it, is another question (Branden 1991, 201-2)

 

I do not yet have this book. I obtained this quote from an online essay by Diana Hsieh written in 2003 called "Mind in Objectivism, A Survey of Objectivist Commentary on Philosophy of Mind." This explains the "1991" reference at the end. I believe it is a mistake, but I am not able to check to see what she meant yet.

Obviously Ms. Hsieh thinks this speculation is rubbish (although she doesn't outright say it), given her anti-Branden stance, calling it protopanpsychism and citing a complete lack of evidence for it. She calls the difficulty of establishing such evidence as "deeply problematic" and she is worried that it "is merely (property) dualism with an account of mental causation tacked on."

This quote, however, shows that Nathantel Branden has evolved in his thinking from the strictly logic-only stance you gave.

I happen to agree that if you claim that something is unknowable, you do have to eliminate the word "something," thus the contradiction Branden mentioned becomes manifest.

But here we get back to the problem of the senses and what can be inputted through them, since we establish knowing in Objectivist epistemology to be based primarily on evidence from sensations, then abstracted, with abstractions of abstractions following.

There are many different forms of figuring out how to know what we cannot perceive. There are three I can think of to start with: cognitive abstraction, sense organ extension through devices, and transposition of sense data to another sense through a device.

Michael





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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
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In Post 71 of the Benefits and Hazards thread, Robert Malcom wrote, "further still, while immediate sensing of distant planets and galexies are beyond our eyes, without using 'new' senses, we develop extentions to enable us to 'see' those distances - that is, they are perceivable to us... if it exists, it is knowable - there is nothing within the universe which is not knowable, because measureability is an aspect of existing, and we possess the means of measuring... but that does not mean we can know it all at once... and by the obverse, if there is no means by which something can be known, then it does not exist..."

I did not reply directly to these comments, prompting Robert to ask, "why did you not carry on with the further commentings I did on the matter here?"

My apologies, Robert. I didn't catch your later comments until after I had started the new thread. I would agree with you that we can develop extensions of our five senses. I indicated as much in a previous post. But it doesn't follow that we will therefore be able to know anything there is to know about the universe. We may never be able to build a telescope or even a space ship that will allow us to see to the far side of the universe. But that would not mean that the far side of the universe does not exist. As I said in Post 4 of this thread, "the fact that something is impervious to being measured [or incapable of being known] does not mean that it exacts no consequences and therefore does not exist."

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 12/07, 7:08pm)


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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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that the fact that something is impervious to being measured does not mean that it exacts no consequences
Correction - that it exacts consequences makes it measurable... if need be, by inference...

(Edited by robert malcom on 12/07, 7:25pm)

(Edited by robert malcom on 12/07, 7:28pm)


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Post 9

Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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Michael wrote, "It is very interesting to see you on the side of the open-ended metaphysics approach now (in terms of predominance over epistemology). I heartily agree with the main part of your conclusions."

Oh, well, I never considered epistemology (read "consciousness") to have primacy over metaphysics (read "reality"). Come on, Michael! Give me more credit than that! :-)

You referred to Nathaniel Branden's book, The Art of Living Consciously in which he expresses a dualist perspective on the so-called "mind-body problem." Since I have something to say on that issue in criticism of Branden's view, I thought it best to start a new thread (in the General Forum) entitled "The Mind-Body Problem." I hope I'm not starting too many new threads, but I think it helps to have the discussion reflect the title of the thread under which it is being conducted. So the rest of my reply will be included there. I think it's an interesting topic, and should generate further discussion.

- Bill



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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 9:45pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "[T]he fact that something is impervious to being measured does not mean that it exacts no consequences"

Robert Malcom replied, "Correction - that it exacts consequences makes it measurable... if need be, by inference..."

Well, you can certainly make that claim, but I don't see how you can prove it. There is nothing in the nature of reality which says that if something exacts consequences, then human beings must be able to measure it even by inference. It's entirely possible that an event could take place that we are unable to measure even inferentially, like the emergence of life on the far side of the universe--unless you want to say that if we were there and had the proper instruments, we could measure it, which is like saying that if we could measure it, then we could measure it.

- Bill

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 7:07amSanction this postReply
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Context, context, context - we may not be able at that time to see that development, but in the nature of things, we can eventually...

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Context, context, context - we may not be able at that time to see that development, but in the nature of things, we can eventually...

How do you know? This is pure speculation on your part. We may never be able to see that development, because "in the nature of things" it is beyond our capabilities. Suppose that in order to be in a position to observe it, we would have to travel faster than the speed of light. Since it is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light, we could never observe it. Would that imply that it does not exist? No, of course not. It's existence does not depend on our being able to observe it!

By the law of identity, everything has limitations, including our ability to know reality. It is a flat violation of the Objectivist metaphysics to deny this!

- Bill


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Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
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By the law of identity, everything has limitations, including our ability to know reality. It is a flat violation of the Objectivist metaphysics to deny this!
 
And yet so often the most zealous practicioners act as though this were not so.




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Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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By the law of identity, everything has limitations, including our ability to know reality. It is a flat violation of the Objectivist metaphysics to deny this!


Only to the individual.


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Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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What I get from this thread is that we -- being human -- will only be able to know things in the human way of knowing things, and that there may be existing things of which we are unable to become aware. Let me first state that the human way of knowing things is dynamic, not static. A thousand years ago, the human way of knowing things was limited to what the 6-12 "naked" senses (codified in our genome) could pick up. This has now changed. The reason it's changed is because homo sapiens, while having material limitations, have an unlimited rational potentiality (when viewed across the last dozen millenia). It appears that we will -- perpetually -- be increasing our sphere of awareness.

And besides, postulating possibility -- with no earthly evidence to relate it back to -- is not a good way to go about doing philosophy. The possibilities that folks should focus on, are the ones with clear ties to reality. They way I see it, this thread is mere mental exercise. Convince me I'm wrong about that ...

Ed
Mental Gymnast


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Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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On a re-read of Bill's first post, I ought to temper my thoughts above somewhat. Nothing specific can be claimed unknowable, though the general viability of an existence of (directly) unknowable things is unquestionable. Every existent must interact with reality, and -- in principle -- we could become aware of any and every existent (knowing THAT it is, not WHAT it is) through inference.

Ed


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Friday, December 9, 2005 - 12:55amSanction this postReply
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Thank you for that word, inference, Ed.

We cannot shut off any possible part of existence that does not align easily with human perception and claim philosophical validity. If we can metaphorically glimpse the thingamajig and then uncover any principles behind it, science will find a way to harness it.

Michael


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Friday, December 9, 2005 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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Yes Michael. It reminds me of Rand's aversion to armchair speculation on ontology.

Ed


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Post 19

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 12:58pmSanction this postReply
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Ed Thompson wrote,
Every existent must interact with reality, and -- in principle -- we could become aware of any and every existent (knowing THAT it is, not WHAT it is) through inference.

This is armchair speculation on ontology! How do you know that we could in principle become aware of any and every existent?

Bill


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