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Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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Recently I was having an interesting discussion on the origins of volitional consciousness with a fellow myspacer.  This particular question has been a popular one in the circles of philosophy and science.  What, exactly, is the origin of volition in a sentient being?  It is easy to imagine what the origin is in a non-sentient being, such as a bacterium.  In these creatures very particular stimulations of the environment trigger very specific reactions and combinations off different reactions.  There is no origin of thought, there is only reaction and response, a well conditioned tiny machine.  However, in a sentient being, an action is directly linked to a thought and is not always caused by an external stimuli.  The source of the action can not be a loud noise or a bright light, it must be some internal mechanism.  Thus the problem in philosophy arises, what is the source of this action.  How can inanimate non-sentient matter combine in such a way as to be capable of animation and action caused by thought alone?  To put it simpler, as one of my professors of religion described it, when you move you arm it moves because your nerves have sent a charge differential into the muscle, causing a cascading effect that is muscular contraction.  Your brain sent the impulse to your nerves, but where and how exactly did the brain impulse originate?  If we imagine the charged pulse going backward in time up the brain stem and into the brain, through tens of millions of neural connections, where does it stop, or rather start?  What triggers that initial action?  What is it’s origin?  Does a nerve, of it’s own accord, suddenly activate?  How do other nerves, which themselves require activation, cause the activation of other nerves?   

 

In other philosophical circles this problem ends up being very similar to the Prime Mover, that is all actions and motion in the universe are caused by previous actions, the Earth orbits the sun because it coalesced out of a spinning dust disk, the consequence of a conglomeration of generations of dead star matter and heavy elements and the natural way that large sparse dynamic gravitational systems tend to imbalance and form pockets where more matter happens to collect. The clouds of dust were spread out and formed through previous generations of stars, going back to the big bang.  What started this motion?  Many theologians like to insist that god started the motion, that he is the prime mover, ignoring the fact that they are explaining a mystery by presenting an even larger one; what started god moving?  If he started himself moving then it is simpler to presume the universe started itself as well, since if we are going to arbitrarily add entities to an explanation then we can arbitrarily add an infinite amount of them and never change the question and never have any more real information. 

 

Given that and looking at bacteria and simple animals, it’s clear that most of their actions could be considered to originate in the first cause as well, assuming there was one.  If a bacterium swims toward the light, it does so because a photon hits a proton which unfolds and triggers a nerve which triggers a reflexive swimming response.  But that photon originated in the sun, the sun originated in the formation of our galaxy, the galaxy originated in the formation of the universe, etc. etc.  The point being mechanistic responsive behavior is irrelevant to the question of the origin of volitional behavior, unless one believes in a deterministic universe and that all volitional behavior only appears to be volitional and was actually writ in stone at the moment of the formation of the universe, just as this article must have been.  So presuming the universe is not deterministic, and I feel it irrational to consider it to be, what is the origin of volitional behavior?

 

One of the most influential Christian philosophers of all time, Thomas Aquinas, originated this argument as the argument from efficient cause, though it had its roots in Aristotle.  It is an argument that is often confused with that of the Prime Mover, and superficially they are very similar.  However the argument from efficient cause, if you consider the universe non-deterministic, can be thought more of as billions of Prime Mover dilemmas that occur all the time.  As a person that embraces a non-deterministic universe, this obviously presents a great dilemma.  Hume’s counter arguments to the efficient cause argument are mostly the same as a rational person would present against the prime mover as god argument.  Immanuel Kant’s counter arguments were much worse, and none these philosophers seem to recognize the role that efficient cause plays as a fundamental in a non-deterministic universe.

 

Thus we are back to our original problem.  What is the trigger for action, for thought?  Where does it originate?  How can a nerve trigger it’s own activation?  There have been many studies with MRI’s and PET and CAT scans which show us how some of the these origins of choices operate and what general regions of our brains are used, but we won’t find our answer there yet; the scale is too large.  It occurred to me today when contemplating the functioning of computer system that there is a problem which is identical to the efficient cause problem and might help, conceptually, to explain the origins of volition in sentient beings.  To find our answer for now, we have to look to computer programming.  Consider a computer program, or more specifically a computer program reading another program.  How does a computer initially gain the ability to read programs?  Or, essentially, how do you program a program to read programs?  It’s a catch 22, you can’t program a computer unless the computer is able to read programs, but the computer can not read programs unless you program it.  Just as a nerve can not initiate itself to fire, so a computer program can not tell a computer how to read it (I speak here in the most fundamental sense of a computer program, not a new file format which includes a module to convert it) In both cases we have a physical device which is operated by a change of a state, coincidently in both cases it is electrical charges.  If this catch 22 is resolved in the physical operation of computers, it can clearly be solved inside the brain over billions of years of evolution.  So how is it solved?


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Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 2:58pmSanction this postReply
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It has always struck me that if you take the history of biological development, the answer would show its face quite clearly.  But - am well aware that to show this answer, it would require a goodly amount of tomatic detail, far more than I as an artist, much as I like explaining some of these things, care to engage in.  No - not a cop-out, but an issue of priorities.  Thirty years ago, would have gone and done the tome. So - best wishes to you in the upcoming generation who would do this invaluableness.

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Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:06pmSanction this postReply
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...in a sentient being, an action is directly linked to a thought and is not always caused by an external stimuli. The source of the action can not be a loud noise or a bright light, it must be some internal mechanism. Thus the problem in philosophy arises, what is the source of this action. How can inanimate non-sentient matter combine in such a way as to be capable of animation and action caused by thought alone?


It would seem that the conservation of energy present in chemistry leads to cellular organisms with chemical homeostatic regulation, and cells organize developing nervous regulation, then animals develop rationality to regulate their nervous behavior.

Consider child development; they learn to act volitionaly, not impulsively. They find "magical" phenomena "amazing" and interesting. Savages are superstitious. Rational or intelligence isn't a given, its taking the path of least resistance (the easy way out) in the long-run, trained by the carrot & stick of their elders. Aesthetics is the proof of self-creative gratification.

going back to the big bang. What started this motion? Many theologians like to insist that god started the motion, that he is the prime mover, ignoring the fact that they are explaining a mystery by presenting an even larger one; what started god moving? If he started himself moving then it is simpler to presume the universe started itself as well,


You're assuming a "god" like we are, one that "changes" over "time". IIRC a property of god is immutability; god doesn't "think" - no divine "brain waves".

That's why I posit volition or will, at some primary level, should be scientifically modeled as a physical field of some sort; our emergent consciousness and volition to change and organize our minds not only changes the universe, but is caused by the nature of the universe itself to conserve energy. Matter is self-organizing, regulating, networking and innovating to conserve itself.

Particles in motion move in straight lines. When a bunch of particles get near, they interact, and begin swirling and clumping due to "gravity". (They still move in geodesics in the warped space-time they are).

My point is matter is chaotic, manifesting different properties at scaling magnitudes. Who was it that said they liked most individuals they met, but hated them when they got in groups? So I suspect the universe or macrocosm could reasonably be conjectured to have an emergent property or field to account for emergent volition, which would mystify our mechanistic microscopic perspective.

Scott

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Friday, February 24, 2006 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
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It has always struck me that if you take the history of biological development, the answer would show its face quite clearly
I no doubt agree, but what that mechanism is what I am curious about.  If such a mechanism (the source of voilition that is not dependant on previous states or outside influences) were found, wouldnt it be an empiricial vindication of free will?  We know very little about how the first life forms came to be, and little about how they went from single cellular organisms to multi cellular, and little about multi-cellular instinct based and volition beings.  I think if we figured out how to do this with a program it would give a conceptual understanding of how life accomplished it.


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Friday, February 24, 2006 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
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If volition is a physical property, like the gravitation or fine-structure constant, then you don't have to ask whether we are deterministic automata or free-agents. What the universe is, and why it behaves according to principles of physics is the inscrutable axiom - existence exists.

Scott

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Friday, February 24, 2006 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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Scott Wrote:

That's why I posit volition or will, at some primary level, should be scientifically modeled as a physical field of some sort; our emergent consciousness and volition to change and organize our minds not only changes the universe, but is caused by the nature of the universe itself to conserve energy. Matter is self-organizing, regulating, networking and innovating to conserve itself.


I think this is what noetic theory is?

http://www.mindspring.com/~noetic.advanced.studies/Amoroso15.pdf

"Extensions of the standard models of quantum theory and cosmology as

well as elements of microgravity are required to formulate Noetic Field theory (NFT). Its broad applications to many fields

of science are discussed."

 

I have no idea as to the credibility of this.

 

 
Bob


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Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 6:54amSanction this postReply
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If volition is a physical property, like the gravitation or fine-structure constant, then you don't have to ask whether we are deterministic automata or free-agents. What the universe is, and why it behaves according to principles of physics is the inscrutable axiom - existence exists

Hi Scott, Thanks for your comments.  I have no doubt that volition is a physical, probably emergent property, of sufficiently complex systems.  I am trying to understand conceptually how that is accomplished.

Michael


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Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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As far as I know from being a student of cognitive neuroscience, volition is part of consciousness. But...

according to Antonio Damasio (Prof. Neurology), the following is based on evidence:

1. Some aspects of the process of consciousness can be related to operation of specific brian regions and systems
2. Consciousness and wakefulness, as well as consciousness and low-level attention, can be separated
3. Consciousness and emotion may not be separable. If consciousness is impaired, usually so is emotion.
4. Consciousness is not a monolith (one concrete thing). It can be categorized into different kinds. Core consciousness provides sense of self (here, now) and extended consciousness (itself with levels and grades) provides elaborate self-sense: identity, person, position in space and time, future, environment.

Consciousness attains its highest level in humans, while animals may have simple levels of consciousness. Volition would be part of extended consciousness and may reach into the core, but at what level within the extended or core, I don't know (yet). But usually when people think of "the glory of human consciousness" they're thinking of the extended level at its highest point; however this extended consciousness is built upon the core. Evidence suggests that what disrupts core disrupts extended, but what disrupts extended doesn't mean the core is disrupted.

Not sure if there's a "starting point" for volition. More and more I think in terms of volitional gradations, wherein differing anatomical, psychological, psychiatric, physiological, chemical, environmental, etc. factors affect volition in different ranges and depths within the population. So it's not much of a linear thinking type problem for me. Rather, I think of volition as a layered, and deep integration within the similarly layered, ranged, and fleshed out property of consciousness. It may have its roots in the core and expand into the extended, but I'll have to find out.
(Edited by Jenna W
on 2/27, 9:39pm)


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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 5:26amSanction this postReply
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I think this is what noetic theory is?

http://www.mindspring.com/~noetic.advanced.studies/Amoroso15.pdf

...I have no idea as to the credibility of this.


Sounds incredible at first sniff. Lots of big words, names dropped and even an equation or two. It seems to lack some element I've come to associate with credibility. Perhaps too many big words and pictures?

I suspect there is some identifiable "force" or property responsible for the ability of living things in general, not just people, to organize in opposition to thermodynamic processes trying to dis-organize them. I don't like the term "Intelligent Design", when no "intelligence" agent exists. Just the universe itself acting according to principles not fully understood.

Jenna wrote:

Not sure if there's a "starting point" for volition. More and more I think in terms of volitional gradations...Rather, I think of volition as a layered, and deep integration within the similarly layered, ranged, and fleshed out property of consciousness.


Volition it seems, is like momentum we're born with. It seems consciousness emerges in early childhood, and we set out to perfect it as best we can. As far as volition goes, one often observes people doing things (bad habits) and making excuses.

One of my stranger experiences was asking myself why I kept lighting a cigarette and smoking it. Nothing like a good conflict to make you aware of yourself.

Scott

Post 9

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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Scott wrote:

I suspect there is some identifiable "force" or property responsible for the ability of living things in general, not just people, to organize in opposition to thermodynamic processes trying to dis-organize them. … . Just the universe itself acting according to principles not fully understood.


Volition it seems, is like momentum we're born with

 

Hi Scott, again I do not doubt that volition arises out of the natural properties of the universe, if I did not believe as such I would just attribute it to god or some such thing.  But presuming axiomatically that volition can arise from the fundamental nature of the universe is the first step (and one we obviously both agree on) to actually identifying how that is accomplished.  Maybe we won’t know for some time, just as we don’t yet fundamentally understand gravity or quantum fluctuations.  But I doubt volition is a property born of either of those scales, and perhaps the only scale that would make it difficult to conceptually understand is it’s complexity.  But that won’t stop me from trying, and it might not be dependant conceptually.  So I am asking by what physical means would you give something volition (say a robot, or computer program) since the same thing must have occurred with us through natural selection.  I try to answer this down below.

 

Jenna, thanks for your comments, I am sorry I had not yet a chance to respond to your email yet.  Your comments on these topics that you clearly have a lot of technical knowledge of are always welcomed.

 

Very interesting facts, I have no doubt there are many others, and I have read of some experiments in my perusing that have interesting implications on identity as well.  But all of this is focusing on levels of awareness, and not volition. 

 

Not sure if there's a "starting point" for volition. More and more I think in terms of volitional gradations, wherein differing anatomical, psychological, psychiatric, physiological, chemical, environmental, etc. factors affect volition in different ranges and depths within the population. So it's not much of a linear thinking type problem for me. Rather, I think of volition as a layered, and deep integration within the similarly layered, ranged, and fleshed out property of consciousness. It may have its roots in the core and expand into the extended, but I'll have to find out.

 

When you speak of volition layered as such, then it seems rational to consider a scale with volition (absent of external stimuli) on one end and reaction and response on the other, with actions (and choices) stemming from something along that gradient.  But that doesn’t change the fact that at one end is a volition that exists of it’s own.  I am trying to think of an example of such a choice, choosing a career, a mate, what car you are going to buy, etc, all come from reactions to stimuli (observations and recognition of those objects) and evaluation.  I think the determinists could argue that these are all varying degrees of determinism, of all of our actions be shaped by social conventions and previous events. 

 

Of course most of our choices should relate to what has happened in our life and what we want to happen in our life, but it is easy to see how a determinist could then think that we somehow subconsciously just add up the advantages and disadvantages of an action and then we act on it.  Most of my choices are clearly related to rational pursuit of goals.  But to set goals in the first place I had to choose to do that, but one could argue that came from a recognition of what is valuable in life as well.  Was the recognition of those things a choice?  I think so… I am just trying to dig down to a choice that was absent of perception and evaluation of some kind.  It seems like the non-goal orientated whim worshipper and philosophically flighty person would be the one most likely to make most choices like that; how long to meditate, which spirit to worship today, or which feeling to follow, etc.  Ironically these are the people who tend most toward determinism, no? 

 

I’ll have to mull this over some more.

 

Michael


Post 10

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 9:06pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, volition exists, I have no doubt about that. We have a concept of what volition is. My question has always been "how it is"? And I don't really know, and the most I can do is to refer to the research I have read and to people who are in the field more directly dealing with the human brain and how it affects consciousness.

And it's fascinating. There is no one "volition part" of the brain, as all the differing studies of pathology dealing with lesions, injury, abnormality (in the statistical sense), chemical abnormality, etc. show neuroscientists that volition is not attributed to one specific area. Therefore that is why brain injury in one area may not completely shut a human down. There is plenty of evidence for this.

Volition in terms of minimal stimuli: well what happens do your dreams in sleep? Stimulus input is minimalized during such a state, so how does your brain deal with volition in dreams, where sight, taste, touch, balance, pressure, etc. are not as "full" when going about daily business? I think this is an interesting question; as in my more memorable dreams I'm much less proactive and more reactive (less active, more passive). My volitional capabilities are lessened in dreams to some extent. The point is, is this true for the majority of humans in sleep?

Epilepsy studies are also done in terms of loss of volition; as a person with ADD I've had to struggle with incomplete volition over my attentional/perceptual/conceptual faculties. I still had volition, but blood flow in the brain *is* one determining factor, as well as the suggested genetic influence. So that's what I mean by varying "degrees". Volition is so interconnected with other processes that it is hard to separate it; and I think by separating it we may in fact be doing a disservice to understanding it. And it's probably not that good of an idea to predefine something explicitly that has not yet been experimentally engaged with.

A good paper on consciousness by Crick & Koch:
And they make some good points about consciousness and its study:

"(1) Everyone has a rough idea of what is meant by being conscious. For now, it is better to avoid a precise definition of consciousness because of the dangers of premature definition. Until the problem is understood much better, any attempt at a formal definition is likely to be either misleading or overly restrictive, or both. If this seems evasive, try defining the word "gene." So much is now known about genes that any simple definition is likely to be inadequate. How much more difficult, then, to define a biological term when rather little is known about it.

(2) It is plausible that some species of animals -- in particular the higher mammals -- possess some of the essential features of consciousness, but not necessarily all. For this reason, appropriate experiments on such animals may be relevant to finding the mechanisms underlying consciousness. It follows that a language system (of the type found in humans) is not essential for consciousness -- that is, one can have the key features of consciousness without language. This is not to say that language does not enrich consciousness considerably.

(3) It is not profitable at this stage to argue about whether simpler animals (such as octopus, fruit flies, nematodes) or even plants are conscious (Nagel, 1997). It is probable, however, that consciousness correlates to some extent with the degree of complexity of any nervous system. When one clearly understands, both in detail and in principle, what consciousness involves in humans, then will be the time to consider the problem of consciousness in much simpler animals. For the same reason, we won't ask whether some parts of our nervous system have a special, isolated, consciousness of their own. If you say, "Of course my spinal cord is conscious but it's not telling me," we are not, at this stage, going to spend time arguing with you about it. Nor will we spend time discussing whether a digital computer could be conscious.

(4) There are many forms of consciousness, such as those associated with seeing, thinking, emotion, pain, and so on. Self-consciousness -- that is, the self-referential aspect of consciousness -- is probably a special case of consciousness. In our view, it is better left to one side for the moment, especially as it would be difficult to study self-consciousness in a monkey. Various rather unusual states, such as the hypnotic state, lucid dreaming, and sleep walking, will not be considered here, since they do not seem to us to have special features that would make them experimentally advantageous."

http://www.klab.caltech.edu/~koch/crick-koch-cc-97.html

Not sure what the worry is about determinism or non. I don't think of cognitive neuroscience in those terms. Because of the complexity of the brain, the complexity of our brains' interaction with the complexity of our environment (social, political, national, interpersonal, natural, etc.), multiplied by the complexity of our life (work, children, spouse, pets, education, pleasure, etc.), position in time (i.e. we're in 2006, not 1906), hindsight, etc. we basically have free will just out of the vast size of possibilities multiplied over the minutes of our future.

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Post 11

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 10:22pmSanction this postReply
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The Outstanding Jenna W.,

1. Consciousness is operating on information. It is actually a measure of the degree of complexity and quantity of information that a life form operates on, simple action reaction on the lower scale, and knowledge of self and one's capabilities and one's context and how one's actions influence their context short and long term on the higher scale. I think its better to define things right away, and then improve them when you discover better definitions. An example of complex information would be the relationship between my getting up out of bed in the morning and my boss'es mood, or my getting up out of bed in the morning and my financial position in the next coming month. An example of simpler information would be if I get out of bed, I will feel cold, my muscles will ache, and my body will feel less comfy. Even simpler, no processing of past information, experiment: lay->comfy, move->not comfy.

2. Language is a method of information storage and transfer inside and between organisms. Most humans have way more capable information storage, encoding, decoding, and transferring abilities than lower organisms. No language results in every organism has to re-learn everything for themselves (and I doubt they will learn much). An organism with even the lowest mental capability may very well communicate (transfer information) with fellow organisms.

3. I disagree on their points here. I think its better to look at the simplest organisms and then go up the evolutionary tree to discover what consciousness is. I'm working on making digital systems conscious.

4. "There are many forms of consciousness, such as those associated with seeing, thinking, emotion, pain, and so on. Self-consciousness -- that is, the self-referential aspect of consciousness -- is probably a special case of consciousness." Yep, people use the word consciousness to mean all sorts of things, but they never really use it to mean a well defined thing.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 11:07pmSanction this postReply
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Like Dean, I like the idea of identifying the things that you are going to be talking about. In 3 now-immortalized words, consciousness is identification. To say that you want to talk about something, but that you don't want to differentiate it from all other known things -- is to say that you don't want to talk about something (Crick & Koch, upon a first and fragmented glance, appear to be "philosophically-challenged" scientists).

To be even more clear here (on this "identification" thingy), there are 2 types of awarenesses of reality: perceptual & conceptual. With perceptual powers of awareness, one can be (or become) aware of immediately present, remembered, or imagined, things. With conceptual awareness, one can be (or become) aware of things not present to one's perception -- or even things (eg. mermaids, justice, theory) that are not ever available to sense-perception.

There is a perceptual awareness (shared by all sentient beings), and there is a conceptual awareness (shared by all sapient beings) -- and we have to discover whether it's best to categorize both under a heading called "consciousness" or whether to take "consciousness" to solely mean conceptual awareness. Clarification of the subject matter is the only viable path to theoretical progress.

"Rational cognition is conscious and verbal." --Ayn Rand

Ed


Post 13

Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 2:29amSanction this postReply
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Definition: Crick & Koch were explaining a precise definition of consciousness. Right now in neurosci there's generalized "definitions", so we're not starting from nothing. I.e. "core" consciousness and "extended" consciousness and "self" consciousness among others; those have been identified and categorized with properties under each, but not rigidly. I would call these framework-type definitions, within which experimental detail could re-organize the framework or fill it out.

Simpler animals: I think they know about animal consciousness, but they are interested in human. For them, perhaps the best way to discover anything about human consciousness is to study humans (after all, my consciousness is available to me) first and then see the application to other animals. Meanwhile, this paper is not written in stone for other scientists, who use animals as model systems to work the other-- from simple to complex. Either way, both are fascinating and they may meet in the middle. Personally, I am interested more in human consciousness.

Self-referential consciousness: may exist in animals, but it is the most apparent in humans normally. Personally, I find it must easier to understand a human's self-identity than a chimp's. Because we know self-identity (most people have a notion of self) it is easier for Crick and Koch personally to study humans (it *is* their study). It's just simpler for humans to communicate with humans via the minimal language-species barrier, for them. At least, I think so; maybe someone does know chimps better than humans and can understand their self-consciousness (I'm serious here, some people get very much into their work to the point that they can understand i.e. bacteria better than human life).


Philosophically challenged: No, I disagree. They have identified that "There are many forms of consciousness"; how would they know to say that without identification? How would they say "Consciousness takes many forms... We chose visual consciousness rather than other forms, because humans are very visual animals and our visual percepts are especially vivid and rich in information"?

or even this: "In approaching the problem, we made the tentative assumption (Crick and Koch, 1990) that all the different aspects of consciousness (for example, pain, visual awareness, self-consciousness, and so on) employ a basic common mechanism or perhaps a few such mechanisms. If one could understand the mechanism for one aspect, then, we hope, we will have gone most of the way towards understanding them all."

They want to study perception all the way to the highest levels of conception. They know they must start somewhere by identifying something. They suggest that "consciousness" is one big heading with other "aspects" or "types" underneath it. This is current neuroscience approach as far as I know; in my class we studied the visual process (and it's interesting how it can messed up, or fooled, too!) as a model system.

"Rational cognition is conscious and verbal." --Ayn Rand

Irrational cognition usually relates to unconscious events-- however, irrational cognition can be verbal as well. Schizophrenics are irrational, yet they still retain speech and can be quite verbal, although for them language and meaning are looser. The guy I knew was not conscious (I think) of his (half of the time) irrationality, yet he was self-aware, seeing, breathing, feeling, balanced, etc. and he knew it-- he could say "I'm outside" when he was outside, or similar (rational). He could identify things "This is a smoothie" (rational) or feeling "That pisses me off!" (rational). He was aware of language and what language he spoke (rational), yet half the time the words strung together made no sense (irrational). During this time, it was about paranoic thoughts (irrational), and had no reality-reference (irrational) BUT he could reference ME (rational) or the environment (rational) as real. This is why consciousness is hard to define, precisely, and why it's defined as it is. How would one consider the differing types of consciousness in this individual? He wasn't unconcsious i.e. he was aware, perceiving. How much volition did he have over his reality-breaks? How could he be both referential to reality, yet not? What about the parts that were rational? Does that count as conscious? (Has anyone talked to a raving schizophrenic? Scary-- and interesting!)

Of course, it depends on what "rational cognition" is, what "verbal" is, and what "conscious" is. And then we would have a circle back to the beginning of this post. :) And this is why this is sticky, and where evidence is going to play a big hand for me.

Post 14

Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 3:53amSanction this postReply
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Jenna W,

If you are interested in neuroscience, you should check out Jeff Hawkins' new book On Intelligence. He has a bold new theory about how cognition works involving pattern recognition, prediction and invariance. This is the best integrated, cogent book on neuroscience I've read.

Jim


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Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 2:18pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the book suggestion! My Amazon wishlist is burgeoning with neurosci books already, but I did add that one.

I must express a caveat that while people do make computer-brain analogies, I'm aware that it's a working analogy and computers are a model system to help achieve understanding of systems, networks, parallel processing, conncetions, memory, categorization, etc. but I draw the line (at this point in my life) at *equating* computers to human brains. I don't answer questions about "Would a computer be able to be made that's basically human?" because I don't know. We *don't* know everything about the brain so therefore to analogize two semi-unknowns/knowns (human computer & human brain) is not what I choose to think about beyond practical model systems comparisons. Yes, there are scientists working on computer-brain projects. But that's not my route-- for me, I'd rather deal with one semi-unknown first (the human brain), because if we are to compare something else to the human brain, we'd better know a lot more about it than we do now. Deep Blue won, but how? And what does it tell us about it (he? her? see what I mean?), and ourselves, and the difference? Could anyone on this forum fall in love with a supercomputer? To me, that's a huge difference. *laugh*

"In the same way, we have known for centuries the brain that is responsible for thoughts and feelings, but we'll only truly understand the brain when our psychological and neurological knowledge is complemented by an artifact -- a computer that behaves like a brain." --http://www.research.ibm.com/deepblue/learn/html/e.8.1.shtml


I put that book on my wishlist :)

Post 16

Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 4:57pmSanction this postReply
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I've lived with a schizophrenic man for a little while, through his development of doing well on his medication to doing poorly and being off. Then again later for a short period of time when he was completely off. I think the main problem with his logical process was that he failed to look for evidence that might counter his ideas-- or he failed to think that they were a contradiction with his ideas and realize that his ideas must me false. They were just silly little things that provided very good evidence that his idea was false, but he didn't realize it. Fortunately he never thought that I was attacking him.

Post 17

Friday, March 3, 2006 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jenna,

Perhaps we will have to agree-to-disagree regarding when, where, and how -- things ought be defined. You bring up a great point about what I call 'premature exactification.'

:-)

But if cognition is the act or process of knowing (and I think it is), then "irrational cognition" -- an idea used above as an example -- is inherently contradictory (ie. it's non-existent). Here's Robert Audi, for instance, on knowledge ...

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Knowledge is reliably grounded in roughly the sense that the knower can discriminate any relevant alternative from the situation known to exist. -- Epistemology, Routledge, 2003, p 234
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... and here are my notes in the margin ...

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Knowledge is a discovery that yields successful discrimination. Knowing (discovering) that something is one way, and not other ways. Discovering how other things compare to something in a certain way. When you truly know something, you understand how or why it is that you know it.
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And, on page 242, Audi introduces the notion of "virtue epistemology" -- where the reliability of a process (in leading to truth) is characterized as its virtue, and processes that are unreliable with regard to truth discovery, aren't epistemologically virtuous.

There is no epistemological virtue in "irrational cognition," or "schizophrenia" -- as their relevant belief-forming processes (I prefer "knowledge-forming processes") are unreliable.

Ed



Post 18

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 1:41amSanction this postReply
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"Premature exactification"-- there's another phrase I thought of when I saw this, but I'm not going to write it.

Also, I'm not sure if I am being accused of something; in any case, I'm unconcerned, and I'm fine with disagreement, even if I don't know what that disagreement is.

In no way did I say anything about schizophrenia being virtuous or not, or whether they were contradictory or not. That wasn't my point. My point was to have dialogue about the intricacies of the brain, mind, and consciousness; how varying activities expressed by the patient allows one to delve into the workings of cognition. How insufficient functioning in the brain affects the consciousness, cognition, volition. How cognition and conceptualization can be partial for some people.

Definition: don't know why there's disagreement. I can see multiple viewpoints on a single concept. I can see how it's relevant, accurate, general, antithetical, applicable, etc. That's called unpacking, expanding. I do it all the time, day-to-day. It allows me to see wider than if I just stuck to one train of thought; i.e. linearized thinking, one train of thought, one definition. I think nonlinearly, I think in layers, systems, systems of systems, connections, wholes, parts, shapes, form, parallels-- with layers on top of layers with connections in between. So of course, some to most definitions are going to be a multi-perspectival analysis for me. There is nothing wrong with that; in fact, very few people I meet can think this way and most cannot understand it.

If "processes that are unreliable with regard to truth discovery, aren't epistemologically virtuous" or "There is no epistemological virtue in "irrational cognition," is true, then I am not 100% epistemologically virtuous by dint of ADD (I had irrational thought but I became conscious of it at one point through self-analysis-- yet still could not volitionally stop it by myself). And neither is the schizophrenic virtuous, nor people with agnosia, nor clinical depressives, nor other psychiatric abnormalities, nor those with aneurysms bulging onto certain neural systems, nor tumors, brain lesions, neurotransmitter imbalances, hormone imbalances, trisomies, autism, or birth defects.

Some irrational cognition is not volitional because it is unconscious (paranoid/major schizo or brain injury). Some irrational cognition is not volitional even though the person is aware of "blank outs" or awkward thought patterns (me with ADD, or those who can do enough self-analysis to know something's wrong). Some irrational cognition may lie between or traverse unconscious and conscious (mild schizo or clinical depression or bipolarity).

Post 19

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 6:36amSanction this postReply
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Do not consider ADD as a disability or irrationality - as ye said, there is much non-linear thinking being involved....  am much more inclined to consider it as on a different - yet inclusive - part of the same bell curve, especially as it seems more to be sex oriented to female, tho is often seen among the more creative and innovative of males...

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