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Post 40

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 6:48amSanction this postReply
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Yes, Phil - total passion there.......;-))


We encounter efforts to destroy many of our values constantly as well.  Sometimes I actually do get angry.  It rarely does any good in terms of eliciting a shift on the part of the opposing party to a more rational idea.

Well said, and as implied, hard at times to see to doing.  Much of this involves the use of logic, something which should be taught at early ages, but almost never is, and oft when taught, done very imcompletely.  The same, actually, with rhetoric [a good book on this is Usages of Rhetoric].


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Post 41

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
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Phil, we're not talking about the same thing here. I wasn't endorsing going off on wild, shouting, curse-laden tirades against devout Christians or Marxists. That kind of behavior is beyond the pale and achieves nothing.

I was using "civility" in the context of questioning the motives of other people. And I don't agree that's off limits. Ayn Rand herself often eloquently and powerfully identified the ugly motives at the base of various irrational, vicious doctrines. If there's evidence that people are guilty of such motives, I don't think identifying it is wrong; I think it's a requirement of justice.

My main point concerned the way that Objectivists treat each other, however. Landon says, "If someone who is supposed to be representing to any degree the same ideas I am and I see things that are the antithesis of what I hold dear I find it hard to stay civil." Well, so do I. But sometimes it's not obvious whether another self-labeled Objectivist is espousing the antithesis of an Objectivist principle. In such cases, I believe the person should be given the benefit of the doubt until he fully clarifies what he meant.

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Post 42

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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Subject: ad hominem

> I wasn't endorsing going off on wild, shouting, curse-laden tirades against devout Christians or Marxists. [Jon]

I was responding to the wider idea, not your form of it.

>Ayn Rand herself often eloquently and powerfully identified the ugly motives at the base of various irrational, vicious doctrines. If there's evidence that people are guilty of such motives, I don't think identifying it is wrong; I think it's a requirement of justice.

She asserted that holding these doctrines was not done by people who actually believed them, was not done innocently. She never -proved- it. She knew she herself could not hold false ideas and philosophers and that was her grounds for presuming what was in the minds of Jesus, Plato, Kant, Hume, Marx, and their modern, less intelligent followers.

This tendency to attack the person was appropriate and necessary for a character in a novel who was clearly dealing with a Toohey or a Taggart or a Keating or a Lilly Rearden. But to assume the originator of an irrational, vicious doctrine was always a monster, that "Dewey was a Toohey"...or, worse, that gullible college students who become professors indoctrinated by these ideas made plausible... are evil and don't thoroughly believe the doctrines requires proof.

I, of course, agree that Objectivists should not treat each other this way, but my view goes beyond that: don't call intellectual adversaries names in print, period. (If the adversary happens to literally be a killer like OBL or Hitler, that is a different matter. But to know the motives of Peter Singer or Richard Rorty or Kant, I would have to do an awful lot of reading and offer a great deal of proof.)

You will be much more effective at crushing and discrediting these people if you don't resort to the fallacy of ad hominem. One of the major reasons Rand's nonfiction is a lot less effective than it might have been is her use of invective and ad hominem.

Her immediate followers, Branden and then Peikoff, did us no favors by imitating this rhetorical style. One reason OPAR - the first book to put Objectivism fleshed out between the covers of a book and thus extremely important and which Peikoff invested ten years in - vanished without a trace in terms of impact and credibility, is that he included this approach right in the middle of the most philosophical paragraphs or discussions. And it was grating because it came out of left field. Rand could partially get away with it because she made it plausible.

I realize I am in a clear minority of Objectivists on the ad hominem issue (even probably among TOC people not just ARIans!)- all of whom imbibed this attitude with their Rand's milk from the very first, in the novels and reinforced in nearly every nonfiction essay or lecture series. But the questions to always ask when someone attacks motives or has insight into the evil soul or another are:

How do you know, are you a psychologist? Did you know the person? What's your proof?

Do you think libertarians or environmentalists or global warming nuts or linguistic analysts you've met who subscribe to some deeply non-Objectivist or anti-philosophical idea are deliberately doing it to subvert what they know to be true?

This was Ayn Rand's single biggest mistake, and it was a psychological one, not a philosophical one.



(Edited by Philip Coates
on 3/06, 10:38am)


Post 43

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:47amSanction this postReply
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I realize Peikoff made a distinction on these issues in "Fact and Value": between inherently dishonest ideas that no one can hold honestly and between ideas held by a naive nineteen year old and a college professor specializing in the field who can't hold the same ideas innocently.

But he asserted these claims and didn't try to prove either of these (if I recall the essay correctly). [I made a long post on Diana's Noodlefood blog explaining why college students I went to class alongside of and had late night bull sessions with made all sorts of such errors and I could see they were confused or indoctrinated but that they really believed them.]

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Post 44

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 2:04pmSanction this postReply
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Bravo, Phil, for your post 42.

I think that if Objectivists were to internalize what you wrote there, instead of the attitude they "imbibed [...] with their Rand's milk from the very first, in the novels and reinforced in nearly every nonfiction essay or lecture series," they would have so much more success than they typically have at communicating with the world of non-Objectivists, they would be amazed.

Ellen

___

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Post 45

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Ellen Stuttle that Phil Coates' approach to communicating ideas is much superior to the slash and burn rhetoric used by so many Objectivists.

One thing Phil said needs a brief comment:
One reason OPAR - the first book to put Objectivism fleshed out between the covers of a book and thus extremely important and which Peikoff invested ten years in - vanished without a trace in terms of impact and credibility, is that he included this approach right in the middle of the most philosophical paragraphs or discussions. And it was grating because it came out of left field. Rand could partially get away with it because she made it plausible.
True enough, but that's not the worst part of it. Right in his preface, Peikoff includes the most gratuitous, rude slap you can imagine in the face of academic philosophy:
Like any proper work of general philosophy, this book is written not for academics, but for human beings (including any academics who qualify). (OPAR, p. xiv)
Gak! How else is one to read that, except as an ad hominem attack claiming that most (if not all) academics are not human beings?

There are two things wrong with that comment of Peikoff's. One, it's gratuitiously rude. Two, it's pathetically lame. Anyone who had as much animosity toward academic philosophy as Peikoff does ought to have whipped up more passion and creativity than that.

Even without getting over-the-top nasty, I think his remark could have been greatly improved if it had been formulated this way (with the additional words underlined):
Like any proper work of general philosophy, this book is written not for academics, but for human beings who want to learn a philosophy for living on earth (including any academics who qualify).
See? This is a very simple way in which Peikoff could still have gotten in a slap at academia -- a much more Randian one, at that (as can be seen by reading her comments on modern philosophy in her introduction to Peikoff's Ominous Parallels) --  by alluding to its (supposed) disdain for practical life and reality. This much better focuses the issue than does a crude insinuation that most (if not all) academics are not worthy of the title "human," and it is more inviting and less off-putting to those academics who might have been interested in finding out more about Rand's philosophy.

As it is, right at the starting-gate in OPAR, Peikoff let his emotions get the better of him, and he shot himself and Objectivism in the foot. And as Phil pointed out, he continued to do so throughout the book. Peikoff may be Rand's intellectual heir, but he is not Objectivism's best salesman.

REB


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Post 46

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:09pmSanction this postReply
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Speaking of Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, this work seems clearly to be Leonard Peikoff's interpretation of Ayn Rand's philosophy.  Since he does not simply quote her work, he must be adding something to it.  If Objectivism is a closed system, as he maintains, is it not hugely presumptuous of him to offer interpretations of her philosophy.  Isn't it his mandate only to publish her unpublished works?  How can he assume that he has made no errors of interpretation?  If he has made an error, then isn't he evil?  To err is to be evil, right?  At least if one is not a young student it is.  Then there is this very interesting Mayhew book Ayn Rand Answers, The Best of Her Q&A, with her answers sometimes being edited to eliminate contradictions with her published work, which was apparently encouraged by Peikoff, as a very interesting example of the closed system, but said not be a part of the Objectivist literature.  What kind of No Man's Land does that reside in?

Or do I have this wrong?  Is one supposed to be an independent thinker who may evaluate Ayn Rand's work and using its essential principals proceed to think out philosophical issues.  Can one say then that one is espousing Objectivist ideas even though there is some possibility that Ayn Rand would not sign on to every one of one's expressed ideas if she were to return and review them?

Or is Peikoff alone then allowed to establish what the philosophy of Objectivism is?  So, Objectivism is not a closed system.  It is open, but only to Peikoff and those he selects.  Should anyone else be rational and find themselves in agreement with Objectivist principals and making arguments consistent with them, they cannot be Objectivists unless they first get a license to practice philosophy from Peikoff?  Is this how the free market for ideas works?  If it does, then of course the academic philosophers deserve to be very rudely treated.


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Post 47

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

Now some people would have been angry about my pointing out your typos awhile back.  In view of your earlier comments on grammar and those on civility, your response in simply fixing them and thanking me was wonderfully consistent.  No evasion there!

While there are interesting and useful points made by Ayn Rand in the introductory essay of For the New Intellectual, I have always hesitated to recommend that work to anyone because her use of names such as Attila and Witch Doctor for the enemies of Objectivism.  This is very likely to be too much for people not already very familiar with Objectivism.  There is also a big problem with the Ominous Parallels with the insistence that most non-Objectivists are fascists.  There is a good point there, but it is a horrible way to try to sell Objectivism.  You Democrat, you are really just a Fascist and now I want you to listen to me explain the rational philosophy of life to you!  I wonder how often that is an effective invitation to join in a discussion?


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Post 48

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 6:52amSanction this postReply
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Peikoff is a little whacked, if you ask me.  I have not read "ominous parallels" but it sounds like fear-mongering bullshit to me.  There is too much of this and Objectivism needs to be taken back from this kind of extremism.  I do think that sometimes calling Evil what it is can be important, and I do it myself, but Peikoff takes it way too far.

Post 49

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Ominous Parallels is very interesting reading - do reccomend it, whether one agrees with all of its notions...

Post 50

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 1:46pmSanction this postReply
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> I have always hesitated to recommend that work to anyone because her use of names such as Attila and Witch Doctor for the enemies of Objectivism. [Charles]

Charles, I'm not sure I'd go that far. I'd have to reread the essay, but there's a difference between identifying a historical or intellectual trend as Attila-ism or WitchDoctery - which is insulting toward the trend, but may be accurate and thus justified and 'literary license' - and calling an individual person who you don't know an Attila or a Witch Doctor. In other words, an idea can be contradictory, stupid, evil, fascistic...but the person advocating it does not necessarily see all that unless you have further evidence.

And so it is insulting, inappropriate, offensive, and -most importantly- sloppy and inaccurate to call the person stupid in general or a fascist, or a witch doctor, etc. Unless of course you have evidence, as in the case of the historical or literal witch doctors in the jungle or Attila the Hun himself. Or you otherwise have clear evidence.

This is a subtle point I think people often miss. To give another example: I recently posted that a misuse of the sanction principle was 'stupid' and was criticized by Diana H on her blog for being "insulting". But there is a difference between summarizing an idea as stupid, evil, etc. --which can be valid-- and calling a person that:

It's a question of accuracy and precision.


(Edited by Philip Coates
on 3/07, 1:48pm)


Post 51

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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I'm currently re-reading Ominous Paralells. Good read, Peikoff does go on some weird tangents but for the most part a solid read with good reasoning.

---Landon


Post 52

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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As I said, it IS interesting reading.....

One should also add that this was sanctioned by Rand herself, so is in agreement with her.....

(Edited by robert malcom on 3/07, 8:13pm)


Post 53

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

I do not disagree with you in a number of your points.  Indeed, if someone has already read other Ayn Rand works and seems to have some understanding for them and appreciation for them, then reading For the New Intellectual is a valuable and useful experience.  But, I do not put it high on my list of introductory works.

Where I do have a different viewpoint is this:  Many people who hold a highly non-Objectivist viewpoint do take it personally if they realize that their viewpoint is of the school of thought that is being referred to as the equivalent of the Witch Doctor or of Attila.  When I was an undergraduate one of the physics professors learned that I opposed socialism and upheld the philosophy of Objectivism.  He ever thereafter referred to me to the other physics majors as Attila.  I infer that he read For the New Intellectual and was incensed by the Attila reference.  In any case, I have often seen people of other viewpoints become very incensed at having the parallel of their desire for green areas, public transport, public health care, work training programs, and extensive governmental regulation of businesses with fascism pointed out.  I had a neighbor who would not talk to me for 6 months because I explained why a government required home owner's association was fascist in principle.  Most people are sensitive to criticism of their ideas and most can be very emotional about them.  You really have to work hard to get them to concentrate on the rational understanding of an idea, while holding the emotions at bay until that part of the process is complete, when you want them to abandon an idea they have long associated with themselves.

Personally, I generally prefer to introduce people to The Fountainhead and see how far they can get with that book.  When I talk to them about what they thought of it, then I am in a much better position to figure out what I should recommend to them next.  It would not likely be either For the New Intellectual or The Ominous Parallels even at that stage.  There are usually several other books I would recommend first.  This is not to say that either of these books is less than a very good book, but they are not likely to be great marketing tools.  They are for the already initiated.


Post 54

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Anderson,

I wanted to ask you a follow-up question to your post #46 on this thread. What do you think is the proper definition of the philosophy Objectivism?

At your blog, a few days ago, you expressed your conception of this philosophy in this way:
Objectivism is the philosophy committed to reality, reason, productive achievement, individualism, heroism, sensual sexuality, and happiness on earth.
That characterization seems correct to me as far as it goes, but I have one big reservation. To say that Objectivism is committed to individualism is less abrasive than to say that it is committed to rational selfishness or rational egoism. But it seems misleading. Surely Rand's philosophy is committed to a rational egoism. That is essential to the Objectivist philosophy. Do you agree?

Rational egoism is the view that all moral issues are to be decided at bottom by considerations of rational self-interest alone. Rational egoists think that all moral virtues, including benevolence, are rationally justified by considerations of rational self-interest. Anyone who does not subscribe to that view of morality is not an Objectivist. Do you agree?

I don't mean to insinuate that people who agree with Rand on this essential of her philosophy should shun people who disagree with it. Also, I don't mean to insinuate that anyone who subscribes to a rational egoism is an Objectivist. Many and various philosophers, from Socrates to Rand, have tried to base morality purely on rational self-interest.

Post 55

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 8:40pmSanction this postReply
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Stephen Boydstun,

All of your points are excellent and I agree with you completely.  Of course I should add rational egoism to the list and it is indeed more central than some of the ideas I have in the list.

Thanks for your comments!


Post 56

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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Stephen Boydstun,

I have edited the essay on which you commented.  The list now reads:  reality, reason, rational egosim, ....


Post 57

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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"The Ominous Parallels" is corrupted by Ayn Rand's editorial input making it 14 years in the writing and publication.

--Brant


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