RoR: Forum

Post 0

Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 8:57am

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We Americans call them "pennies" but they are "cents." Cents from before 1982 have about 1.5 cents of copper in them at current prices. So, if you want to encourage your children to save -- or if you want to do it yourself -- there is hardly an investment with a lower downside risk or a cheaper entry point. Find one coin from before 1982, set it aside, and you are in the game!

The US cent was made of "French bronze" (95% copper and 5% zinc and tin alloy) from 1864 to 1982 -- with the exception of 1943 steel zinc and 1944 brass coins.

In the middle of 1982, the U.S. government switched to the present composition, a nearly-pure zinc core with a thin plating of pure copper. Old coins weigh 3.11 grams; new one 2.5 grams. Zinc cents are noticeably lighter.

Unlike other monetary metals, copper is a latecomer and actually has uses. Gold and silver were nearly useless in ancient times. Bronze was the primary industrial metal for thousands of years. While preferable in many ways, iron is harder to work, requires greater heat, etc. Copper has a low melting point -- as does tin, which when combined with copper forms bronze, nearly as good as iron for most industrial needs in an agricultural society. The first coins date from about 625 BC, but the first copper "coins" appeared only about 300 BC, as one-pound slabs featuring elephants and pigs. Smaller coins came soon, as fiduciary media, primarily in Sicily, but spreading throughout the world as rising prosperity required smaller and smaller units of money for daily transactions.

Among the many kinds of aesthetically and philosophically attractive copper coins are the "Conder tokens" of England, circa 1790, struck by the free market Birmingham Mint of James Watt and Matthew Boulton. Created for merchants, such as ironmaster John Wilkinson, these mememtos of early industrialism celebrated a plethora of bougerois virtues. (See http://www.conderclub.homestead.com/)

Admittedly convenient as minor coinage, copper's true value has always been as an industrial commodity -- and that remains true today. Our electric world would be impossible without it. Athough aluminum wire is allowed by some building codes, aluminum wire is inferior. And you cannot ring a bell with glass. In other words, fiber optics can carry a signal, but no current. Therefore, electromagnetic work can only be performed by copper wire in motors and generators, and in coils and relays.

Get the fact at www.copper.org and read the romance at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda_(mine)

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 5/04, 9:35am)

Post 1

Saturday, February 3, 2007 - 6:39pm

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Pennies, Nickels Worth More Melted Down
POSTED: 11:44 am EST December 14, 2006
WASHINGTON -- Given rising metal prices, the pennies and nickels in
your pocket are worth more melted down than their face value. That has
the government worried.
U.S. Mint officials said Wednesday they were putting into place rules
prohibiting the melting down of 1-cent and 5-cent coins. The rules
also limit the number of coins that can be shipped out of the country.

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Monetary Offices
31 CFR Part 82
Prohibition on the Exportation, Melting, or Treatment of 5-Cent and
One-Cent Coins
__________________________________________________
AGENCY: United States Mint, Treasury.
ACTION: Interim rule with request for comments.
SUMMARY: To protect the coinage of the United States, this interim rule
prohibits the exportation, melting, and treatment of 5-cent and one-cent
coins. This interim rule is issued pursuant to 31 U.S.C. 5111(d), which
authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to prohibit or limit the
exportation, melting, or treatment of United States coins when the
Secretary decides the prohibition or limitation is necessary to protect
the coinage of the United States. This interim rule is effective until
April 14, 2007. The public is invited to comment until January 14,
2007. Thereafter, but prior to April 14, 2007, the Department of the
Treasury will reevaluate the need for the rule in light of the public
comments, and other relevant factors. Upon consideration of the public
comments and other relevant factors, the Department of the Treasury may
issue a final rule extending or modifying the provisions of this interim
rule, or may allow the interim rule to expire without extension.
DATES: Effective Date: This interim rule is effective December 15,
2006.
Expiration Date: Unless extended by a further rulemaking document
published in the Federal Register, this interim rule expires April 14,
2007.

"We are taking this action because the Nation needs its coinage for commerce," said Director Ed Moy. "We don't want to see our pennies and nickels melted down so a few individuals can take advantage of the American taxpayer. Replacing these coins would be an enormous cost to taxpayers."
http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=press_release&id=724

Nickel prices touched an all time high of 38,950 usd a tonne last Friday.
Metals - Nickel recovers as traders again focus on critically low stocks
Friday, February 2, 2007 2:58:36 PM
http://www.afxpress.com

Copper futures for March delivery fell 11.3 cents, or 4.5 percent, to $2.4175 a pound at 12:15 p.m. on the Comex division of the New York Mercantile Exchange. A close at that price would be the biggest one-day percentage drop since Jan. 3. Earlier, copper touched $2.385, the lowest since March 23.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601012&sid=a.Xy_t43.TN8&refer=commodities

A U.S. 5-cent nickel coin weighs 5 grams and is 25% nickel 75"% copper.
It takes 151 pre-1982 Lincoln cents to make a pound.

Post 2

Sunday, February 4, 2007 - 5:26pm

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That's pretty hilarious. I guess we won't be seeing many of the older coins in a few years or so. What percentage of the current 1 cent and 5 cent pieces are from the pre 1982 era?

Post 3

Sunday, February 4, 2007 - 5:49pm

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Ummm... nickels are nickels (except the War Nicks, which are 1/3 silver...) ...
[From mid 1942 to 1945, so-called "Wartime" composition nickels were created. These coins are 56% copper, 35% silver and 9% manganese. --wikipedia. .35 * 5.00 = 1.75 grams silver; 1.75/31.1 = .05627 ounces silver; .05627 * $13.38 per ounce = 75 cents each for 1942-1945 US 5-cent coins.]

However, sorting out Canadian nickels is an option. Here is a machine (don't you love the market for capital goods?):

The first product is a machine capable of sorting over 300 coins per minute. It is a single denomination coin sorter/counter called the Coin Artist. Single denomination means it will only sort one kind of coin at a time. At this point you ask what is there to sort if they are the same denomination coin? Over the years as metal prices fluctuate, the mints of the world have changed the composition of their coins but they often leave the size and color of the coin the same so they can easily circulate together without causing confusion to users.

The best current example of this is the US 1 cent Lincoln coin, or penny. Some time in 1982 the US Mint changed the composition of the coin from 95%copper and 5% zinc weighing 3.11 grams, to a zinc planchette coated with copper. This new composition is pure copper plating over zinc. Zinc content is about 99.2%   and copper plating makes up the rest at about 0.8% this coin weighs 2.5 grams. The Coin Artist will be configured to sort these two types of pennies that circulate together side by side From my samplings of over 150,000 coins, I have found that the percentage of copper content coins in my area runs about 29.5%. This may vary within any geographic area, and will continue downward as they are removed.

Also available, is the Coin Artist for nickels.   The US nickel is really not in play, but the Canadian nickels have been changed numerous times and there are almost pure NI content nickels circulating side by side. With the nickel price so high, it makes sense to remove these from circulation and store them for a long term numismatic play. For Canadian customers it will make sense to get set up for the nickels as well as the copper pennies. This will be accomplished by purchasing either a separate sorting unit just for nickels, or a retrofit kit to switch over to them intermittently. As things develop on my end I will add more content explaining other uses of the Coin Artist
http://www.ryedalecoin.com/Products.html

It costs $600...

Short of that, there is the labor-intensive alternative of sorting them by hand... or hiring CHILDREN to do that for you! Yes!! Child labor for pennies!!! Ahh, capitalism!

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 2/04, 7:52pm)

Post 4

Monday, February 5, 2007 - 7:56am

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My credit union has a machine that will count your change for you. It's self-service. It gives you a slip which you take to a teller in exchange for more money.

Do you think banks will be imposing service charges for this as well? I can imagine this:

PERSON: I have 500 pennies. I would like a $5 bill instead.
TELLER: That's perfect. It will cover the five-dollar service charge.

Post 5

Monday, February 5, 2007 - 1:10pm

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CoinStar has counting machines in supermarkets. I believe they take a 10% fee for counting. CoinStar is one of the lobbyists fighting for the continuation of the cent.

My credit union also has a counting machine for change, and, like yours, there is no charge. You take the slip to the cashier. I always deposit mine to savings. When it comes to money I am a Scrooge. I don't have much -- there is that interesection between Zen Buddhism and Howard Roark in blue jeans and sandals; as an Objectivist don't "care" about money because I am always confident that I can earn it -- but what I have, I take darned good care of because I honor and respect its source!

New thread: Credit Unions versus Banks.

Post 6

Wednesday, January 2 - 7:10pm

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The Copper Development Association offers charts, graphs, and other data.

At about $3.00 a pound right now ($3.02,$3.04)[1], there is just less than 2cents in every pre-1982 US bronze cent. In 1982, the composition changed to its current debased alloy. Before that, the cent was 95% copper and 5% tin and zinc, an alloy called "French bronze."

There are machines that will sort cents by weight, old from new. Otherwise, you have to do this by hand. Also, as noted above, actually melting the coins or selling them for export are both illegal acts. However, if, like me, you have a jar of cents, a cold, dark winter night is a fine time for spending time with these little tributes to Francisco d'Anconia. Who knows, you might find a doubled die or other error, making that cent a 25-cent or one dollar item.

[1] Copper must be 99% pure for the commodities market. Some refiners make money taking 90% pure anodes from the mines and extracting the silver and gold to sell the 99% pure anodes. Recycled copper sells for less.. Grades of #2 and #1 depend as much on the guage of the wire.

A Penny Saved: Copper