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Post 20

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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Rodney, Jonathan, James and Yaron do not write intelligently on this subject, and that was the purpose of the "radioactive octopus scenario."


Michael, you have written some fine posts on this forum. But you have been known to write some insane things now and again and take people's words to mean something else than what they originally mean. These hypotheticals we speak of are derived from real world experiences. Children and dissidents in an aggressor nation dying as a result of a defending nation dropping bombs or using weapons have happened in just about every war. I'm surprised you think we should provide to you real world examples, are you not aware of them? WW1? WW2? Korea? Vietnam? Do you think these scenarios never occured? As Aaron said;

I don't think you're doing justice to the posts in this thread, however, especially Jonathan's post 6 which it appears you thought you were most parodying. Examples thus far have been either real scenarios or realistic. Context matters, of course, and if stated, principles can be derived from such examples.


And I agree with Michael Dickey, this statement takes the cake for stupidity;

I maintain that people who want to bomb cities "with good reason" have unresolved personal conflicts centered on their lack of self-esteem


I have zero respect for pacifism and this is by far the dumbest thing I've heard from you. What do you propose a nation that should defend itself do to an aggressor nation's cities Michael? Drop leaflets begging the inhabitants to stop supporting their murderous regime? Please stop killing us!, they should say? What would you suggest Great Britain do to German cities in WW2? Nothing? Just let the Londoners be eventually bombed out of existence by the German war machine?

I think your channeling your old hippy pacifist days Michael. Time to wake up and smell reality.

I maintain people who think those who wish to drop bombs on cities with good reasons have unresolved conflicts, themselves have unresolved hippy, pacifist, tendencies centered around their pussification.

How do you like them apples?

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Post 21

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Post 7 is the best thing I've read in a long time. 

Fauth thinks he disagrees with Rawlings, yet every post he writes screams that he doesn't.  It seems he can't understand an argument that is not in his own words.
And based on Robert's actions on previous threads, he loses interest and runs away like a little girl when confronted with a good argument. You are a bitter old man Robert. I clearly indicated that I was working through the problem. Is this not a place for free discussion anymore? If you have something to say, you can say it to me you grumpy old piece of shit.


Post 22

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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Ok, here is something that always bothers me about anti-war and pacifist types.  They hold self-contradicting premises, with the rare exceptions of the complete pacifists like the Amish, and even then they benefit by being free riders and so have some holes in their ideas too.

Ask an anti-war pacifist if they or a loved one were brutally raped, then murdered, how would they apprehend the criminal?  Would they not wish to use the police?  If the criminal had many guns, would they not understand the need for the police to use guns to effect a capture?  If so, how can they be against war (in general, as I accept being against war in specific)?  What if there was a gang of rapists?  What if it is a tribe?  The point is, these gangs exist and when they form a government then war, while complex, cannot be avoided, in the same way that locking up violent criminals cannot be avoided.

It is simply not possible to be a pacifist without contradictory or completely suicidal premises (which I propose that the true pacifists hold). 


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Post 23

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
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Robert wrote to Marotta:


Post 7 is the best thing I've read in a long time.


That was the best thing you've read in a long time? What kind of tripe have you been reading? I thought Marotta's post was asinine and pointless, and undeserving to Jonathan who writes quite well on Objectivist thoughts. He is learning and just going through the motions of working these principles out on this forum. Why cut him down like that? It's pointless and unnecessary and I don't think Jonathan deserves that.

Fauth thinks he disagrees with Rawlings, yet every post he writes screams that he doesn't. It seems he can't understand an argument that is not in his own words.


Robert, why am I not surprised to hear that from you? An effort to take a cheap shot at someone to elevate your own self-worth seems to suit your character. I think Jonathan misunderstood the topic, what he has written is excellent, and I find it hard to believe you have never been guilty at some point of taking things out of context when you never intended to. But I guess you are the perfect human being that understands everything all the time?

Why don't you leave your value-less comments to some other thread? Or try actually contributing to the discussion. But that would be something novel for you wouldn't it?

Post 24

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

I like the distinction you are drawing.  I think you should also consider the broader issue of jurisdiction, ie.sovereignty.

Hate America Firster's ostensible complaint and incessant rant against America involves the issue of State sovereignty. According to their understanding the most hideous regime, no matter its record on individual rights, is entitled to immunity from outside interference based upon the concept of national sovereignty, but this is a misunderstanding of the issue. What these HAFs must assiduously ignore is that a dictatorship has no claim to sovereignty, the case for sovereignty can only be made for those States that derive their power from the consent of the governed. Noam Chomsky’s arguments, for example, are based entirely on this evasion. Sovereignty is the prerogative of democratic nations. Claims of jurisdiction or sovereignty by totalitarian states are preposterous and should be dismissed out of hand.


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Post 25

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 1:54pmSanction this postReply
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Robert: Yes, of course the states themselves have no rights in the matter.

 

Incidentally, with regard to: 

derive their power from the consent of the governed 

I’ve always had a problem with this idea or formulation. To be consistent with individual rights, this should really read something like: 

derive their power from their acceptance and practice of the proper political philosophy

Could such a country ever present a threat to another such country? Only in some insane fantasy scenario.


Post 26

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 6:19pmSanction this postReply
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ONE
A FORCE MORE POWERFUL
Using nonviolent conflict to achieve democracy and human rights.

http://www.aforcemorepowerful.org/

A Force More Powerful, a three-hour documentary series, explores one of the 20th century's most important but least-understood stories - how nonviolent power overcame oppression and authoritarian rule all over the world. Narrated by Ben Kingsley, it premiered on PBS in September 2000.
Bringing Down A Dictator, a one-hour documentary, is the inside story of how Milosevic was brought down - not by smoke and flames, but by a courageous and risky campaign of political defiance and massive civil disobedience. Narrated by Martin Sheen, it premiered on PBS in March 2002.
TWO
Harry Browne's book, How to Profit from a Monetary Crisis includes a fantasy about the land of Rheingold.  The Germans rolled in, stole some cheese and wine, killed some innocent people and then were chased out the by Americans who stole some cheese and wine, and killed some innocent people.  Through these trepidations, the Rheingolders just minded their own business.

THREE

"Everywhere, where the order is to hold, it is the duty of conscience of each fighter, even if he depends on himself alone, to fight at his assigned position. The riflemen, if overtaken or surrounded, fight in their position until no more ammunition exists. The cold steel is next.... The machine-gunners, the cannoneers of heavy weapons, the artillerymen, if in the bunker or on the field, do not abandon or destroy their weapons, or allow the enemy to seize them. Then the crews fight further like riflemen. As long as a man has another cartridge or hand weapon to use, he does not yield. " -- General Henri Guisan (1874-1960), order to Swiss troops, 1940
http://www.swissworld.org

The Swiss government had a decentralised structure, so even the Federal President was a relatively powerless official with no authority to surrender the country. Indeed, Swiss citizens had been instructed to regard any surrender broadcast as enemy lies and resist to the end. ... The main strategy, however, was deterrence rather than fighting. Even though tiny Switzerland had an army of only 430,000 men, Germany never risked invasion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Guisan

 



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Post 27

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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CAPITALISM AND WAR
by Michael E. Marotta
(Originally posted to Sense of Life Objectivists April 27, 2005.)

Capitalism is the opposite of war. Capitalism is a means of production.  War, by definitiuon, is destruction. Under capitalism, every good or service -- even the lightest of entertainments -- has the potential to be a new tool of production.  In war, every act destroys resources, your own as well as those of your enemy.  Capitalism lets individuals who have nothing else in common -- sometimes, not even language -- find a single common interest that is mutually profitable.  Wars involve anonymous masses who might have shared a wide range of cultural attributes before they demonized each other for their mutual destruction. 

Capitalism has been criticized by socialists for being the cause of war.  Obviously, wars existed before capitalism.  So, the problem must be deeper than that.  Historically, charismatic leaders -- whether Roman triumvirs or American industrialists -- have always used every tool to further their own interests.  Yanking the strings of their paid puppets in the Senate is just one opportunity.  It is also true that the prosecution of war demands resources which some people can produce and sell to the state and thereby profit from war.  The fact is that capitalism can exist without war.  Without resources -- swords or rocket propelled grenades; dried meat or meals-ready-to-eat -- war is impossible.

Business interests do resist war.  Just before the War of 1812, New Englanders at the Hartford Convention considered secession from the Union.  Although it was their ships that were being plundered by the British, war would have been even worse.  When the government in Washington D.C. declared war, the calls for secession of New England were put aside, along with much of the commerce between the United Kingdom and the United States. Commercial opposition to the War Between the States, the Two World Wars and the Two Gulf Wars does not get a lot of attention in mass media or public schools.

Why would merchants resist a war that "everyone" wants, especially when they can profit from selling materiel to the state?  The reason why is that successful merchants see through what Frederic Bastiat called the fallacy of the broken window.  In Bastiat's scenario, a hoodlum has smashed the baker's window and stolen some bread.  "This is good," the crowd says.  Now the glazier will have work.  The baker must pay the glazier and replace the stolen loaves, so his assistants will have more work.  The money from the glazier and the kitchen helpers will circulate in town and we will all be richer. Of course, they will not.  In fact, they are all poorer right now. The destruction of resources is never good.

Time, effort, material, energy, thought, and emotion that go into the production of weapons of war are lost forever.  Swords prevent plows.  Tanks prevent tractors.  Radar screens prevent television sets.  Aircraft carriers prevent airports. 

Plows and airports are tools of production; they increase harvests and speed transportation. No abundance comes from swords and aircraft carriers. When a jet airliner takes off, the production and use of the plane, its fuel, support personnel, etc., are all paid for.  Each passenger has found a profitable exchange in the purchase of a ticket and the air carrier has willingly taken their money for its own profit. When a military jet takes off on a sortie, no one's life is improved and the entire infrastructure that makes the plane possible is depleted.  This is not a new fact. 

For two hundred years, Spain looted the New World of silver and gold. Spain became poorer and poorer.  The simple truth is that it cost more to get each shipment than the precious metals were worth on the market.  More subtly, as loot or booty or plunder, the precious metals had no special value to the Spanish.  Rather than being invested, the money was sqaundered.  In the meantime, Holland enjoyed the Northern Renaissance.  The basic truth that explains this is not a matter of ancient history.  The United Kingdom and the United States were victorious in two World Wars.  As a result, the money of their governments slid from gold to silver to curpo-nickel.  Victories are always expensive.  Of course, defeats cost even more.

The fact is that profit and loss are signals that tell us when we are doing something right or when our actions are wrong.  More than just counting the coins that go in the cashbox this moment, every merchant looks to the future, calculating the costs and benefits of alternatives. Risk is the source of profit, but profit must exceed risk, or the risk is unprofitable and is avoided.  Will red coffee cups sell faster than blue ones?  Will coffee cups sell better than socks?  Will dry goods be a better investment than music disks?  Somehow these decisions are not as glorious as the decision to charge uphill against cannon, no matter how many lives are lost.  Tennyson wrote about the Charge of the Light Brigade.  Lewis Waterman's fountain pen went unheralded.  Which of them changed the world for the better?  Lewis Waterman's pens brought him profit and put money in the tills of the stores that sold them and made work more productive for millions of people.  In every case, each buyer, each seller, looked to the profitability of the purchase as weighed against the risks. 

The true risks of war are never assessed.  At war with the Dutch in 1899, the British invented "concentration camps" for control of civilians.  The use of concentration camps by the Nazis is infamous.  Less often discussed are the concentration camps of the United States in which American citizens were imprisoned because their ancestors happened to come from a nation with which the United States was at war.  War destroys civilizations -- winners as well as losers -- because war dehumanizes all participants.  The modern phrase is "post traumatic stress disorder."  People who experience violence become violent.  Americans were shocked to see Palestinians celebrating in the streets when The Two Towers fell.  Of course, no Americans have had their homes bulldozed recently, so the Palestinians seem odd to us.  We make a big fuss when airport screeners feel us up.  Few of us get thrown to the ground and beaten for being out past curfew.  This is not to excuse the Palestinians, but to warn that as long as we act like them, we make it harder to stop acting like them. 

Is the anger of the Palestinians justified?  Is American outrage appropriate?  Feeling anger is one thing; acting on it is another. Rational people are not governed by their emotions.  The fact is that World War II was not the result of Henry Ford getting back at the Opel Family for selling out to General Motors.  Despite the fact that Albert Einstein and Werner Heisenberg had deep differences in physics and politics, neither saw fit to shoot the other.  Destruction of that which threatens is the instinctive response of a sub-rational brute.  The high minded person who relies on intellect to solve problems finds a solution that at least avoids losses, even if it cannot discover mutual profit.

The excuse for war is always the same: the enemy threatens us with extinction; therefore, they must be destroyed. Such is seldom the case.  We, the people, seldom meet them, the people.  If we asked them why they want to destroy us, their answer would be some form of "You want to destroy us first, so we need to destroy you even firster." In that case, war seems inevitable.  It is not.  Trade prevents war. Trade ends war. Trade brings individuals together -- admittedly, for their own selfish interests, but it brings people together nonetheless.  Capitalism survives and thrives on voluntary agreements.  People who freely choose to associate for their common profit are on the path of peace.


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Post 28

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Marotta wrote:


Capitalism is the opposite of war. Capitalism is a means of production. War, by definitiuon, is destruction.


[singing]War!....Ha....Good god....(chorus) what is it good for?[/singing]

...other than defeating Nazism, Communism, and Imperialism. Yeah I guess war is good for nothing eh?

Marotta I can see the closet of tie dyed shirts you have right now in my head.

Tell me, what would you think a Capitalist country ought to do if it were under attack?

Time, effort, material, energy, thought, and emotion that go into the production of weapons of war are lost forever. Swords prevent plows. Tanks prevent tractors. Radar screens prevent television sets. Aircraft carriers prevent airports.


Attacks on a Capitalist country which is defenseless, can kiss goodbye any plows, tractors or television sets they ever made. A defenseless country, even a Capitalist one, is open to attack by any two-bit dictator with a funny hat. If we lived in some kind of hippy, peace loving cumbaya world where there was no such thing as aggressor nations, then yeah, I'd say building weapons is not necessary. But Marotta, put down the peace pipe for a second. We don't live in that kind of world. It doesn't exist.

The excuse for war is always the same: the enemy threatens us with extinction; therefore, they must be destroyed. Such is seldom the case.


Uh huh, right so when Great Britain was endlessly bombed by the German Luftwaffe, they what? Weren't under the threat of extinction? You know Marotta, there's a bridge in New York I'd like to sell ya.

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Post 29

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 4:07amSanction this postReply
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John Armaos asked (perhaps rhetorically): "Tell me, what would you think a Capitalist country ought to do if it were under attack?"
In Post 26, I gave three examples of alternatives to bombing innocents in times of war.  There are others, in addition.  The website for A Force More Powerful no longer carries upfront the example of Denmark, which was occupied by the Germans.  They did nothing -- and a lot of it. 

But, you see, not you, or anyone else has actually addressed the points I made about your weak arguments.  You say, "if a capitalist country were attacked..."  and I have to ask: "How would a capitalist country come to be attacked?"

When the USA was most capitalist, we had the fewest enemies wanting to invade.  In fact, the USA governments in Washington DC were the aggressors in the Mexican War of 1848 and the Spanish War of 1898.  Neither war had much to do with capitalism.  Read Schumpeter on imperialism.  It is not for the agitation of businesses that nations go to war. The other wars you cited are perfect examples of what happens when socialism eclipses capitalism, when collectivism overtakes individualism in a nation's culture. 

1.  I challenge you to show me one example of a capitalist nation that was ever attacked.

Before you answer, realize that nationalists (like other collectivists) commit the error of reification.  We can speak of "nations" as a convenience in discussion, but there is no such thing as a "national will" or whatever other ghosts inhabit their demon-haunted world. That said...

2.  If attacked, (big "if" in the absence of historical examples) the individuals in a culturally capitalist nation would act morally and would not visit destruction on the hapless earlier captives of the aggressive armed forces.  Two wrongs do not make a right.


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Post 30

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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"other than defeating Nazism, Communism, and Imperialism"

That's undoubtedly a catchy bumper sticker slogan, but the last two don't make much sense.

"I challenge you to show me one example of a capitalist nation that was ever attacked."

And then an example where a nation of unicorns was attacked. We don't call it the unknown ideal for nothing, right?


Post 31

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 6:49amSanction this postReply
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Michael, to an extent I do not believe deliberate targeting of civilian cities is a viable method of warfare, and it is no longer practiced.  Currently, the US does seek to reasonably prevent any and all civilian casualties whenever possible.  This is a strategy that I support, unlike Yaron Brook.  I don't think that means it won't happen, or that under circumstances where enemies use "shields" it won't be necessary, but it should be avoided whenever possible.

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Post 32

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 6:49amSanction this postReply
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Hi Rodney,

I’ve always had a problem with this idea or formulation. To be consistent with individual rights, this should really read something like: 

derive their power from their acceptance and practice of the proper political philosophy

Could such a country ever present a threat to another such country? Only in some insane fantasy scenario.

I am with you in spirit on this, but aside from the occasional statesman, I think it a bit utopian to expect anything from politicians in the way of philosophy.   The bromide that 'all politics are local' is all too true.  It's about promising something in return for a vote.  Unless and until voters are high-minded and preoccupied with 'proper political philosophy' rather than road projects, etc., politicians will continue to pander.  It is pragmatic; it gets them elected, rising to a higher calling does not.

-------

 

In response to the "Objectivists" John and Jonathan, I offer:  http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0879_1.shtml#23


Post 33

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 7:46amSanction this postReply
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Marotta challenged:

I challenge you to show me one example of a capitalist nation that was ever attacked.


If you're asking for a purely laissez-faire Capitalist country, like the one Rand has described in her writings, that never existed on this planet, so your question in that sense is irrational. Citizens in countries that are more free than a country that is totalitarian attacking them, still have every right to defend themselves from attack from that more oppressive government. It would be irrational for citizens in a mostly free nation to want to succumb to a more oppressive invading country and lose all of their rights as opposed to living in a mostly free nation with most of their rights. Freedom is not a zero-sum game.

If a laissez-faire Capitalist country existed, why would you think it would never be under the threat of attack? I can only tell you countries that were mostly free. But I'll give you only a few examples;

France invaded by Germany, WW2. Great Britain bombed by the German Luffwaffe WW2. United States Pearl Harbor bombed by Japan, WW2.

When the USA was most capitalist, we had the fewest enemies wanting to invade.


Fewest enemies? So now there is no distinction that were making between few and none? Few is still more than zero Marotta. You just proved my point.

And how long a time period was that? Yeah if you want to boil this down to a about only a 50 year period, you're not going to get many examples would you?

Survey says!

Great Britain, war of 1812!

You say, "if a capitalist country were attacked..." and I have to ask: "How would a capitalist country come to be attacked?"


Uh, with an invading Army, Navy, and Air Force?

Was that really a serious question?

We can speak of "nations" as a convenience in discussion, but there is no such thing as a "national will"


But Nations are comprised of individuals with individual will. Governments are formed to protect the rights of individuals, which include the right to life. It is a government's responsibility to repel attack from invading forces to secure their citizen's rights to life. If not, then why advocate any government? Are you an anarchist?

...individuals in a culturally capitalist nation would act morally and would not visit destruction on the hapless earlier captives of the aggressive armed forces. Two wrongs do not make a right.


A nation of individuals, have the right to defend themselves. That is not a wrong. There is no such thing as two wrongs when a free nation defends itself. In this instance there is only one wrong, that of the initiation of force by the aggressor nation.








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Post 34

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 7:46amSanction this postReply
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"1.  I challenge you to show me one example of a capitalist nation that was ever attacked."

 

September 11th, 2001

 

Of course by your definition no country is or has ever been capitalist, so of course we can show you no example of a 'capitalist' nation being attacked.  However, 9/11 was a clear example of one of the most capitalist nations on earth being attacked by one of the most non-capitalist organizations in the world which had been overtly and explicitly sponsored by one of the most non-capitalist nations to have ever existed.

 

I have no doubt there are a lot of alternatives to bombing innocents in a time of war, like sending teddy bears on parachutes with pamphlets talking about how much we love the people of the nation who attacked us and are sorry we ever made them so upset, we could also include gold plated CD's with all the children singing "we are the world"  But just because alternatives exist, do not mean they are viable or useful. 

 

You are a strange folk to be deriding nationalism as a form of collectivism when you sit here and tell use that we are all just suffering from low self esteem and want to see kids bombed so we will feel better about ourselves.  Such nonsense is the height of group thought, attributing an entire range and class of thought originating in complex personal values, assessments, and information sets into the most blatantly superficial and pretentious psychologizing I have ever read.  No doubt this all stems from your repressed homosexual and bestiality tendencies.  Asserting every person who believes X must have been Y is still collectivism.  Are we individuals or not?  Do you judge all of your own actions on such wide scale and disingenuous extrapolations?

 

You act as if the victimized nation is acting purely out of vengeance, and of course intentionally targeting civilians is vengeful and irrational.  But the response to any violent crime, whether committed by a nation or an individual, after self defense of course, must include retribution, restitution, and rehabilitation. Clearly in the case of nations an effort to minimize the civilian casualties should be a priority, but not beyond a reasonable extent.  An effort to minimize civilian causalities which jeopardizes the priorities of self defense and retribution is not rational.  Consider that during the war phases of the Iraq war, the coalition’s smart weapons were so precise that Iraqis felt comfortable going out in the street and carrying about their normal lives knowing that as long as they didn’t go into any government buildings they were fine (these comments are from personal accounts I have read in Iraqi blogs)


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Post 35

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 8:10amSanction this postReply
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Robert bitterly wrote:

In response to the "Objectivists" John and Jonathan...


Robert, you're bitterness is starting to get a little sad and pathetic now. You seem to have been really hurt by my comments. Why is that? Why do you care what I think?

"Most importantly, why should you care what I think?" Without a thought to the first possibility he leapt to the second, "Yes, I should consider the source", totally missing the point. I didn’t bother to enlighten him.


There was no point to that Robert. No matter how much you stomp your feet and insist, doesn't make it so.

Most of the people on this forum I have a great deal of respect for. I care what these people think because I want to be intellectually challenged. If I didn't care what they thought, I wouldn't be posting on this forum. Nor would you. If you didn't care, you wouldn't bother engaging anyone in discussion. The fact you would imply you don't care, is an intellectually dishonest thing to say.

I give people the benefit of the doubt, which is what I did initially for you. But your true character became more apparent to me with your demand I take my sophistry elsewhere, as if you owned this forum and were in a position to tell me to leave, and I started to stop caring what you thought. And the fact is you cared enough to even respond to me, you most certainly cared what I think otherwise you would've remained silent. You still care. You still make comments addressing me. You're a hypocrite. If you really didn't care, you'd never even address my existence. But I'm sure you won't bother to enlighten me as quite frankly, I doubt you have anything of value to say. Your quick, one sentence posts are usually devoid of any value and are mostly concerned with attacking people as "pseudo-Objectivists".

This is about as much time I think I want to devote to your sad existence. It's more time than it really deserves.


(Edited by John Armaos
on 6/14, 8:34am)


Post 36

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Actually, in context, that line about the “consent of the governed” may be somewhat valid as a statement of how political office holders get their powers. The surrounding text in the Declaration does make it clear that governments are created “to secure [man’s] rights,” and that the powers of politicians are “their just powers.”

 

Still, it is a rather loose formulation to say that “the consent of the governed” has been obtained. More exactly, there has been a consensus--an agreement to go along with the results of a lawful electoral process. In this sense only has our consent been granted.


Post 37

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Aaron wrote:

That's undoubtedly a catchy bumper sticker slogan, but the last two don't make much sense.


Really?

Imperialism: The defeat of Imperialist Japan in WW2 was done through war.

Communism: The defense of South Korea, Greece from Communist invasion was done through war.

Does it make more sense now?

Post 38

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

I think we are really in agreement on all this.


Post 39

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 1:45pmSanction this postReply
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Michael D,

Nice post.  You are a rose among thorns on this thread.


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