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Post 20

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Campbell wrote:

I personally would not use the word "cult" in reference to any currently existing Objectivist groups. Nor would I apply it to Rand's Inner Circle back in the 1950s and 1960s. The word is seriously imprecise, and its application to Randian organizations lumps them in with much nastier and more devious groups, such as the Church of Scientology.

I agree completely.  As I said earlier, Shermer's piece amounts to a hatchet job despite Chris Baker's objections to the contrary.


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Post 21

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 9:08pmSanction this postReply
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For those of you who get The New Individualist, you'll see in my article on skeptics and humanists that Shermer is looking more deeply at the nature of morality and is bringing more libertarians to speak at his events. (For those who don't get TNI, we'll post the piece soon on our website.) By the way, Shermer's also getting more interested in economics though he hasn't published much on this yet.

While I think he pushes the argument too far in Weird Thing -- as I've said, I don't consider Objectivism a cult although some Objectivists act in cult-like ways -- he has had other reasons for concern about certain Objectivists. The piece below is a post he made on one of his websites in the late '90s, when we were still the Institute for Objectivist Studies and Peikoff had a radio show.
------------

by Michael Shermer

On another note, the Sept. 4 issue of Nature has a full-page review of WHY PEOPLE BELIEVE WEIRD THINGS (unusually long for them). It is neither negative nor positive. It is, well, weird. That's all I can say, it's weird. He can't understand, for example, why I think it is strange that Ayn Rand's Objectivism movement became a cult, when I spent three full pages explaining PRECISELY why I think it is weird. Hear is yet another reason:

 I've been banned by the Randoids. Just before departing on a holiday to Lake Powell last month, the producer of a radio show hosted by Leonard Peikoff (Rand's hand-picked intellectual heir, defender of the faith, and keeper of the truth), called to book me on the show. I figured they were not too happy with my chapter on Rand and were setting me up to be trounced by Peikoff, who is a brilliant guy and can cite Rand chapter and verse. I figured I would be eaten alive, but that I would buck up and take it like a man since I said what I said.

When I returned from my vacation I discovered that my appearance had been cancelled. Why? Turns out that they had only HEARD about the book but had not read my chapter on Rand. When they read it they immediately cancelled me. The reason given was that they did not want to promote a book that "contains libelous statements about Ms. Rand." They would be happy to debate me on the metaphysics of absolute morality (they believe there is such a thing and that they and only they have the absolute moral answers), but there is no way they want to give any recognition to a book that is critical of Rand as a person or philosopher (this despite the fact that I spend an entire paragraph explaining that one must separate the philosophy from the philosopher and that I agree with much that is in objectivist philosophy). 

The irony of this is that THE MAJOR POINT of that chapter is that one of the signs of a cult is the inability or unwillingness to consider criticisms of the leader or the leader's beliefs. So they played beautifully into my hands by doing the very thing I said they would do if they were a cult! 

When I spoke to the producer upon my return I told him that I actually have a photograph of Rand on my wall, next to other photographs including Martin Gardner, Penn and Teller, Randi, Steve Gould, Richard Dawkins, Isaac Asimov, Frank Sulloway, G. Gordon Liddy, Houdini, my wife, a galapagoes turtle (just so I cannot be accused of being speciesocentric), and the Hubble Deep Field photograph of galaxies (just so I cannot be accused of being MilkyWayocentric). Well, upon hearing this he said he would reconsider booking me. Now THAT'S intellectual integrity!

(There is, by the way, a very reasonable group of folks called THE INSTITUTE FOR OBJECTIVIST STUDIES, headed by David Kelly, who are very open to criticism of Rand and do not hold her in worshipful esteem as "the greatest human being who ever lived" as do the other folks.)

I also pressed the producer to please tell me what is libelous in my book, because in a later edition I would certainly want to correct any mistakes. After going round and round in generalities about how "practically everything in the chapter" was wrong, he couldn't cite a single example and said he would have to reread (more like read for the first time) the chapter. I'm not holding my breath.




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Post 22

Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 12:35amSanction this postReply
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Bob Campbell wrote,
I do think, however, that those in the Ayn Rand Institute orbit (and sometimes elsehwere) who preach "the moral perfection of Ayn Rand" have crossed the line from philosophy into religion. Those who preach the inerrancy of Rand's philosophical teachings (after separating them from her sexual psychology, or her approval of smoking, or her aesthetic assessment of Mozart's music) have also crossed the line, in my opinion.
Why do you say that? Suppose one agrees with Rand's philosophy not as a true believer but as an honest, independent thinker. How has one "crossed the line"?

- Bill

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Post 23

Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 6:43amSanction this postReply
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This was initially written as a comparison of Richard Bandler (co-creator of NLP) and Ayn Rand. Here are some signs that you are dealing with a cultish guru:

1. The guru claims that he or she knows all, and you don't need to learn from anyone else. Bandler tries to cut his former partner out of the picture. Their books are long out-of-print.

2. The guru claims that almost everything that he or she preaches is original. This could be deception. It could also simply be a product of the guru's megalomania. In Rand's case, I think she actually didn't know that other people had said thing similar to hers.  Bandler actually sued his ex-partner John Grinder over "stealing" his ideas.

3. The guru disparages other approaches to success. The guru dismisses people if they are right, but are "right for the wrong reasons." Rand despised other approaches to free markets, for example.

4. The guru doesn't tolerate any mention of the competition, but often complains about it and berates it. This applies mainly to Internet forums.

5. The guru has an obsession with a devil. Ayn Rand's was Immanuel Kant.

6. The guru encourages name-changing and may even do so himself. Several of Rand's followers changed their names, including Nathaniel Branden. One local NLP nut in Austin did the same.

7. The guru chastises people publicly and is often obsessed with punishment.

8. The guru encourages people to end relationships with long-time friends.

9. The guru has a few sycophants who live off his success. Rand had Nathaniel Branden.

10. The guru alienates former allies. Rand alienated almost everyone including Branden (her former sex partner). Richard Bandler (co-creator of NLP) is probably going to alienate everybody before he dies.

11. The guru labels things. Rand loved to use the word _evil_.

12. The guru takes pride in throwing out people for "bad behavior." Rand's publications would actually cancel subscriptions and send refunds.

13. The guru is addicted to drugs. Bandler's history with drugs is well-known. Rand's worst drug seems to have been cigarettes. However, in the 1950's, it was apparently considered a "moral obligation" for an Objectivist to smoke.

14. The guru engages in some type of sexual perversion. In Rand's case, it was just an affair with Nathaniel Branden when both were married. Branden then started another affair before finally divorcing his wife Barbara. This is quite tame compared to Bandler's exploits.

15. The guru is obsessed with intellectual property. In the 1970's, Rand met a guy who had a studio named Fountainhead Productions as a tribute to Rand. Her response to him was: "That is plagiarism." Bandler's lawsuit is well-known in the NLP community, of course.


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Post 24

Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

The key issue is not agreement with Rand's philosophy as such, but belief in its inerrancy.

The Ayn Rand Institute considers any disagreement with any of Rand's philosophical propositions a departure from Objectivism, necessitating its rejection in toto. (ARI does acknowledge that persons now living can contribute to something called "Objectivist philosophy," but apparently such contributions can only be additions to Objectivism in the strict sense, or extensions of it. No one who rejects any of Rand's philosophical propositions can be credited with engaging in "Objectivist philosophy.")

A belief in inerrancy is maladaptive, because it presupposes that we can attain context-free certainty about every last detail of Rand's philosophy. No future knowledge could ever call any of it into question.

Rand incorporated a great many psychological claims into her philosophy. For instance, she believed that newborn babies experience pure sensations and have no innate value structures. She apparently believed that there is no such thing as a perceptual error, only an incorrect perceptual judgment (which requires concepts). All of these psychological claims appear to be false. Yet, according to Rand's conception of philosophy, and how it relates to the special sciences, psychological evidence or argument cannot be brought to bear on such claims!

Robert Campbell









Post 25

Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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Dustin: I've never met someone below the poverty line calling themselves Objectivist, though.

Me: I'm officially poor. The most I've made in a single year is seven grand. :-P

But, that's just cause I like getting the grants the Fed takes out of my parent's hide as a way to recoup the losses they made through taxiation. [Myself included, considering every year I've 'owed' the state government taxes since my first job.]

-- Bridget

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Post 26

Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
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Me: I'm officially poor. The most I've made in a single year is seven grand. :-P
Me too!  Well, not as bad as several years ago, but I'm still "poor" by most American standards. But not in the head! Just in the bank kinda poor.

I still manage to enjoy my life most of the time. :)

I don't think Dustin knows many Objectivists, honestly.



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Post 27

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 1:35amSanction this postReply
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1. The guru claims that he or she knows all, and you don't need to learn from anyone else. Bandler tries to cut his former partner out of the picture. Their books are long out-of-print.

Ayn Rand was hardly one to profess omniscience - and if I reminisce accurately, omniscience-oriented philosophy does not bode well with Objectivism. Ayn Rand, was, however a woman of certainty, confidence, conviction, and objectivism indeed promotes contextual, logical certainty.
In a pluralistic society where irrational mentalities exist, it is natural that such justified certainty will receive unjustified disrespect - even to the point where it is judged "cultish". This is extremely unfair, in my opinion. 

In Rand's case, I think she actually didn't know that other people had said thing similar to hers. 

I distinctly recall an instance where she was cited as stating "Objectivism is simply Aristotelianism without Platonism". This clearly indicates she was aware of the fact that Objectivism is fundamentally not an original or radical philosophy. Indeed, she was aware that Objectivism is only original insofar as it is the first system of all these Aristotelian concepts composed into a philosophy for man on Earth.
Rand despised other approaches to free markets, for example.
I am aware of no such protests - but I haven't covered the entire scope of Objectivist literature as of yet, and you may have profound knowledge that I do not. I'm curious, though: Have you concluded if her objections to such different approaches were supported with reasons, or if they were in fact, utterly unjustified?
The guru doesn't tolerate any mention of the competition, but often complains about it and berates it.
Disfavoring "competition" as the theme of conversation and verbal animosity of the "enemy", is not common behavior - but rather, unique to individuals categorized as "gurus"?

The guru has an obsession with a devil. Ayn Rand's was Immanuel Kant.
I reasonably infer that you've gathered this conclusion based on Ayn Rand's writings, since I widely suspect that you did not know Ayn Rand personally. But to substitute a person's writings as clear, personal knowledge of themselves, is an extremely insufficient method - not to mention, very unfair to the human being. In truth, Ayn Rand had a knack for a captivating style of writing, with a very intense, passionate charm. In addition, she further had a remarkable perspicacity, with a very penetrative perception. Such a leading lady who recognizes any downfall of humanity, will naturally have thought processes that are consistent with the aforementioned characteristics of her identity. But I cannot utter whether she was suffering from neurosis [i.e., obsessed], or whether she was expressing herself rather passionately so as to be a good writer - after all, what is a good writer if he/she cannot captivate, charm and attract the audience? 

Moreover, I'd like to clearly mention first and foremost, that there is nothing wrong with reaching the cognitive insight regarding aforementioned perils of humanity  - as Ayn Rand herself did - and, furthermore there is undoubtedly nil wrong with an animosity towards something or someone detrimental to one's life.
 The guru encourages name-changing and may even do so himself. Several of Rand's followers changed their names, including Nathaniel Branden. One local NLP nut in Austin did the same.
I am aware Ayn Rand had her name changed - likely for similar reasons as many immigrants do - but she herself also mentioned a cause behind such an impetus that is exceptionally common amongst a fine field of people: Writers. She mentioned her name change was for the same reason many writers change their names. Both Ayn Rand and Nathaniel Branden were writers. It is often times preferable that a burgeoning writer changes their name or abbreviates their name in some way, so as to create a more aesthetically appealing moniker. This kind of appeal is often described as "catchy", or having a "ring" to it.

The guru chastises people publicly and is often obsessed with punishment.
This is exceptionally characteristic of one with a strong moral compass, and likewise, strong convictions regarding sociopolitical matters. Such a distinctive character, however, is certainly not limited to public denouncements or disapproval. Indeed, such a human being of moral certitude may even publicly praise, glorify and exalt. It is important to note that, as evidenced in worldwide media and general patterns of news-distribution, "alarming" news receive more rapt attention than "pleasant" news - weather-reports aside. On the other hand, one may debate that the current condition of human existence is such that any person of a strong moral compass, rooted in a rational, moral philosophy will naturally act as you've described. 

The guru has a few sycophants who live off his success. Rand had Nathaniel Branden.
By that standard, gurus are all over the place. Bill Gates is a guru. My grandfather is a guru. I'm a guru to my dog. Various housewives across America are obviously wedded to..gurus. Once more, it seems that you are highlighting a very common characteristic of human behavior, and then asserting that to be particular to a classification of folks known as "gurus". 

The guru alienates former allies. Rand alienated almost everyone including Branden (her former sex partner). Richard Bandler (co-creator of NLP) is probably going to alienate everybody before he dies.
Over the scope of an average lifetime, it is normally expected that as one changes and transforms in their personality, behavior and philosophies, one will consequentially change their social and political affiliations. Did Ayn Rand truly alienate almost everyone? And if she did, was it justified by the moral and ethical differences?   
The guru labels things. Rand loved to use the word _evil_.
All humans label things. As to Rand's loquacious use of the word evil, it would be logical to correlate the extent in her application of word "evil", with her perception of the social-political environment. Remember, Ayn Rand was a woman of a very strong moral certitude. 

The guru takes pride in throwing out people for "bad behavior." Rand's publications would actually cancel subscriptions and send refunds.
If by "bad behavior" you honestly mean immoral acts, then I see nothing wrong with that. As if it would be praiseworthy to suffer injustice. If someone defies my request to respect my household rules, and stomps their muddy combat boots all over my silk, persian rug, I will certainly take actions that you may deem as "cultish", and eject them from my premises for their "bad behavior". 

The guru is addicted to drugs. Bandler's history with drugs is well-known. Rand's worst drug seems to have been cigarettes. However, in the 1950's, it was apparently considered a "moral obligation" for an Objectivist to smoke.
If being addicted to "drugs" is a standard for being a guru, then once more, the definition of what a guru is has been blurred even further. Moreover, there is the concerns of considering what a "drug" is, and what constitutes being "addicted" to a drug. Some say all humans are "addicted" to a drug known as the "orgasm". By that definition, we're all gurus! I should grab my blue turban with the sapphire in the middle and sit in the lotus position. 

 The guru engages in some type of sexual perversion. In Rand's case, it was just an affair with Nathaniel Branden when both were married. Branden then started another affair before finally divorcing his wife Barbara. This is quite tame compared to Bandler's exploits.

Again, there is a very odd standard you are placing on this "guru". The reality that 60% of marriages end in divorce are related to a high rate of "sexual perversion" in human behavior. If engaging in some type of sexual misconduct at one point in our life-spans, is a criteria for being a guru, then I'd wager heavily that the mass majority of humans are all gurus. 

The guru is obsessed with intellectual property. In the 1970's, Rand met a guy who had a studio named Fountainhead Productions as a tribute to Rand. Her response to him was: "That is plagiarism." Bandler's lawsuit is well-known in the NLP community, of course.
It is easier to draw a black and white line between what is or what is not intellectual property. As any of us should understand, Ayn Rand was a strong protestant of the cult of "moral grayness". So, once more it seems that having a strong moral compass, intense moral integrity and firm convictions are all qualities of a "cultish guru".
 
I am getting the idea that you hold cynical views of such an archetype. I gather that this animosity is pertinent to different characters in the past who were deemed as cultish leaders/gurus, and supported irrational premises or malevolent philosophies. If the vast majority of these icons all shared that same commonality of diabolical evil, yet with the same strength of moral conviction as Ayn Rand had, then your implicit connection of the two is understandable. Suffice it to say, it is consequential to learn that although these figures all had a strong moral compass, the "philosophical directions" to which they signalled, were undoubtedly different.


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Post 28

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 1:40amSanction this postReply
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Bob Campbell wrote,
The key issue is not agreement with Rand's philosophy as such, but belief in its inerrancy.
As I understand the term "inarrancy," it means incapable of error. But if I'm convinced that a proposition is true, then I don't think that it could be false; if I thought it could be false, then I wouldn't regard it as true. I discussed this in a thread on the Dissent Forum entitled "I'm right, but I could be wrong." So if Objectivists regard Rand's philosophy as true, then they must regard it as inerrant.
The Ayn Rand Institute considers any disagreement with any of Rand's philosophical propositions a departure from Objectivism, necessitating its rejection in toto.
As I understand their position, they regard the philosophy as an integrated whole, so that if you reject any of its fundamentals as false, then you must reject any of the conclusions that are based on these fundamentals as false. I discuss this issue in Part 3 of my article, Objectivism, Contextual Knowledge and the Correspondence Theory of Truth, soon to appear on RoR!
(ARI does acknowledge that persons now living can contribute to something called "Objectivist philosophy," but apparently such contributions can only be additions to Objectivism in the strict sense, or extensions of it. No one who rejects any of Rand's philosophical propositions can be credited with engaging in "Objectivist philosophy.")
Bob, could you cite some references to support this assertion. I'm not disputing it; I'd just like to see some evidence in the literature backing it up.
A belief in inerrancy is maladaptive, because it presupposes that we can attain context-free certainty about every last detail of Rand's philosophy. No future knowledge could ever call any of it into question.
Well, of those aspects of Objectivism that I agree with, which is darn near all of it, I don't believe that future knowledge could ever call it into question. If I did, I wouldn't agree with it. As I indicated above, if I'm convinced she's right, then it is simply illogical for me to believe that she could be wrong, because if she really is right, then she can't be wrong. Of course, if future knowledge proves her wrong, then I will of course have been wrong about the impossibility of her being wrong. But until that happens, I cannot logically admit that possibility.

Also, it is my understanding that Rand regarded certainty as contextual, not as context-free.
Rand incorporated a great many psychological claims into her philosophy. For instance, she believed that newborn babies experience pure sensations and have no innate value structures.
She believed that they have no innate ideas. She would not have disputed that babies are born with the capacity to experience values through the sensation of pleasure and pain. For example, she writes "Now in what manner does a human being discover the concept of "value"? By what means does he first become aware of the issue of "good or evil" in its simplest form? By means of the physical sensations of pleasure or pain. Just as sensations are the first step of the development of a human consciousness in the realm of cognition, so they are its first step in the realm of evaluation." ("The Objectivist Ethics," in The Virtue of Selfishness, p. 17, pb.).
She apparently believed that there is no such thing as a perceptual error, only an incorrect perceptual judgment (which requires concepts).
According to Rand, percepts are the base of one's knowledge epistemologically. The knowledge of sensations is acquired inferentially or conceptually. So, a percept in Rand's sense of the term is not the sort of thing to which the concept of error would apply. An error is necessarily judgmental, because it requires an identification or interpretation of what it is that one is aware of. But raw sensory data cannot itself be in error, because it is simply the form in which one experiences the external world. I'm not sure Rand would say that error requires conceptualization though. To be sure, it does require a process of (mis)identification. Ducks can respond to decoys, mistakenly identifying them as real ducks, without engaging in any act of conceptualization. But the ducks must, in some sense, interpret the object of their perception as having a certain identity.
All of these psychological claims appear to be false. Yet, according to Rand's conception of philosophy, and how it relates to the special sciences, psychological evidence or argument cannot be brought to bear on such claims!
Appear to be false to whom? Not to me. As for psychological evidence or argument being brought to bear on such claims, I think the essence of the claims being made here is philosophical. It is strictly a logical point that there must be base of knowledge -- a foundational awareness of the external world -- which cannot itself be mistaken, because it is the perceptual given, and as such requires a further act of identification or interpretation.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 8/27, 1:42am)


Post 29

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 4:06amSanction this postReply
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Good response, Bill - saved me the trouble [ ;-)], and yes, the key word is context - it can never be overstated, especially in this so 'contextless taught' world....[is why keep saying "context, context, context" all the time here ;-)]

[the 'Nick-o-load-ium' seen in today's dissent is a perfect example of lack of contexts strewn all over]

(Edited by robert malcom on 8/27, 4:27am)

(Edited by robert malcom on 8/27, 4:37am)


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Post 30

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 7:36amSanction this postReply
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Only people can be inerrant, not ideas. Ideas are true or false.

Post 31

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 9:53amSanction this postReply
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"inerrant" simply means free from error. A "philosophy" is distinctly different than simply an "idea" and can be properly referred to as inerrant or not. People ALWAYS err and can NEVER be referred to as inerrant.

Post 32

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
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Only people can be inerrant, not ideas. Ideas are true or false.
Hmm. So what you're saying, Rick, is that the ideas in Rand's philosophy are either true or false, but they must be one or the other. So if future knowledge should expose them as false, then they are false right now. They don't become false simply because someone discovers that they are. By the same token, if they are recognized as true, then future knowledge cannot expose them as false, because if they are true, then they cannot be false. If they're true now, then they're true forever, because truth is timeless.

The only question is: Could a person be errant in accepting Rand's ideas? The answer is: only if the ideas are false. If they're true, then he or she is inerrant in accepting them. So, if I am convinced of Rand's ideas, then I must regard my acceptance of them as inerrant.

In short, the ideas in Rand's philosophy are neither errant nor inerrant, but true or false, depending on whether they correspond or fail to correspond to reality. It is their acceptance (or rejection) by human beings that is errant (or inerrant). A very insightful point!

- Bill


(Edited by William Dwyer
on 8/27, 11:07am)


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Post 33

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I took the term "inerrancy" from Christian Fundamentalists, most of whom say they believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.

The attitude of "inerrancy" treats Rand's writings as once and forever error-proof, so long as they pertain to philosophy.

Rand, of course, did believe that certainty is contextual. Those who treat her writings as inerrant are claming to have context-free certainty regarding every proposition that they contain.

Rand also maintained that she was propounding a philosophy and not a religion. The belief that her philosophical writings are the equivalent of Scripture is not a belief that she ever claimed to be trying to promote. But some of her followers are treating her writings as the equivalent of Scripture.

You reject Ayn Rand's view of free will. By the criteria that prevail at the Ayn Rand Institute, you *cannot* be an Objectivist--indeed, are obliged to reject Objectivism altogether, in favor of whatever "flight of fancy" or "contradictions" that you prefer to substitute for Objectivism. Have I misunderstood the criteria in use at ARI?

The distinction between "Objectivism" and "Objectivist philosophy" that some ARIans now employ doesn't seem to be published anywhere. I've seen it put forward by ARI proponents like Mike Mazza and Diana Hsieh on SOLOPassion, back in April of this year. If you stop and think about it, ARI *needs* some such distinction, because otherwise there could be no further Objectivist philosophy after the death of Ayn Rand: post-1982 writers could only rehash what Rand had already said, ad infinitum. (The problem for ARIans of course becomes how to distinguish their conception of "Objectivist philosophy" from the "open-system" views that they anathematize, and blame heretics like David Kelley for propounding. That, however, is *their* problem--not yours or mine.)

If percepts are error-free, what's going on when a duck mistakes a decoy for another duck? How did the duck perform its misidentification? According to Objectivist epistemology, the only cognitive resources available for identifying things must be either perceptual or conceptual--yet, according to Rand, the duck can't form any concepts.

Right here, I would argue, is sufficient reason to reject part of Rand's epistemology. There is no need to wait for future discoveries in psychology or neuroscience.

Robert Campbell



Post 34

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

"inerrant" means incapable of (being in) error. Ideas do not have abilities.

Are you including yourself in your statement that "people always err"?

Post 35

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 1:21pmSanction this postReply
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in·er·rant Pronunciation (n-rnt)
adj.
1. Incapable of erring; infallible.
2. Containing no errors.

I am not infallible, nor do I imagine myself to be.

Post 36

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 3:50pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

Do not quote dictionaries at me. Be assured that I am already quite aware of their contents.

I see that Campbell is now changing his words from the philosophy being inerrant to the words of Ayn Rand being inerrant. The second is acceptable usage. The first is not.

The Bible, as the 'word of God', is said to be inerrant since God himself is claimed to be inerrant. I have never heard a claim that Christianity is inerrant.

If "people always err" then they never utter a truth. To claim that people always err is to utter a self-refuting statement.

Post 37

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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"Do not quote dictionaries at me."

I take it you were aware of the second definition and chose to ignore it. You are a pompous ass, as usual.

Post 38

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 7:52pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

Since you have resorted (again) to name calling I really haven't any desire to have anything more to do with you.

However, for the benefit of others who may be reading this exchange I will point out that the type of thing that can be inerrant is not specified by your dictionary definition. Just because the word is an adjective, that doesn't mean that it can be applied willy-nilly to any noun.

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Post 39

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 9:03amSanction this postReply
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Ayn Rand was hardly one to profess omniscience - and if I reminisce accurately, omniscience-oriented philosophy does not bode well with Objectivism. Ayn Rand, was, however a woman of certainty, confidence, conviction, and objectivism indeed promotes contextual, logical certainty.
In a pluralistic society where irrational mentalities exist, it is natural that such justified certainty will receive unjustified disrespect - even to the point where it is judged "cultish". This is extremely unfair, in my opinion.
What does this have to do with the comment I made?
I distinctly recall an instance where she was cited as stating "Objectivism is simply Aristotelianism without Platonism". This clearly indicates she was aware of the fact that Objectivism is fundamentally not an original or radical philosophy. Indeed, she was aware that Objectivism is only original insofar as it is the first system of all these Aristotelian concepts composed into a philosophy for man on Earth.
Well, most gurus do sometimes hold a sentimental feeling about someone now and then. I naturally wonder how much Rand actually read of these things. Jefferson always advised that one should originals and not translations. I also wonder how much overall philosophy Rand had read.
I am aware of no such protests - but I haven't covered the entire scope of Objectivist literature as of yet, and you may have profound knowledge that I do not. I'm curious, though: Have you concluded if her objections to such different approaches were supported with reasons, or if they were in fact, utterly unjustified?
Rand had a rationalization for everything to support her feelings about something. Rand despised the Libertarian Party and the anarcho-capitalists, even though many of these people were friendly to her and cited her as an influence.
Moreover, I'd like to clearly mention first and foremost, that there is nothing wrong with reaching the cognitive insight regarding aforementioned perils of humanity  - as Ayn Rand herself did - and, furthermore there is undoubtedly nil wrong with an animosity towards something or someone detrimental to one's life.
Here's yet another non sequitur, as I doesn't really respond to my comment at all. Obsession with a "devil" generally isn't healthy. It shows a profound lack of self. The obsession with devils ultimately does apply more to Rand's followers than to Rand herself. My judgment is based on her writing.
I am aware Ayn Rand had her name changed - likely for similar reasons as many immigrants do - but she herself also mentioned a cause behind such an impetus that is exceptionally common amongst a fine field of people: Writers. She mentioned her name change was for the same reason many writers change their names. Both Ayn Rand and Nathaniel Branden were writers. It is often times preferable that a burgeoning writer changes their name or abbreviates their name in some way, so as to create a more aesthetically appealing moniker. This kind of appeal is often described as "catchy", or having a "ring" to it.
Here is yet another non sequitur.

Rand had excellent reasons for using a pen name. According to Barbara Branden, it was so that her family would be safe if she ever became famous (which she did).

But I was commenting on the behavior of followers, not her. Please confine your responses to comments that I actually make.

I have met several Objectivists who have actually went through a few name changes. These people haven't written any books.
This is exceptionally characteristic of one with a strong moral compass, and likewise, strong convictions regarding sociopolitical matters. Such a distinctive character, however, is certainly not limited to public denouncements or disapproval. Indeed, such a human being of moral certitude may even publicly praise, glorify and exalt. It is important to note that, as evidenced in worldwide media and general patterns of news-distribution, "alarming" news receive more rapt attention than "pleasant" news - weather-reports aside. On the other hand, one may debate that the current condition of human existence is such that any person of a strong moral compass, rooted in a rational, moral philosophy will naturally act as you've described.
So, you are comparing Rand to journalists? Many journalists certainly do not have much of a moral compass.

Obsession with punishment and public scoldings indicates a person who has a weak sense of self. It's much like a person who yells constantly. They feel the need to put an "exclamation point" on everything. They want to get everyone else's attention. Are you going to see that a parent who belts their kid for every little thing has a "strong moral compass"?

And in many cases, it is just the product of a generally negative attitude toward life and the world. They don't trust the world and don't really believe in a benevolent universe. A good example is the many people on this board who believe that Israel should kill everyone in Lebanon.
My grandfather is a guru. I'm a guru to my dog.
Apparently, you do not know what the word sycophant means. This comment may be the most ridiculous of all in this generally ridiculous post.

A good definition at www.dictionary.com for sycophant is:

servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people

Does your dog try to win your favor by flattering you?
Over the scope of an average lifetime, it is normally expected that as one changes and transforms in their personality, behavior and philosophies, one will consequentially change their social and political affiliations. Did Ayn Rand truly alienate almost everyone? And if she did, was it justified by the moral and ethical differences?
The difference, however, is that most people will still be courteous toward their old friends if they happen to bump into them someplace. These relationships ended because people simply drift apart from each other and find different interests. Most of Rand's relationships ended very badly.

Rand did alienate almost everyone, at least if what I have heard is true. And many of these were definitely not justified.
If by "bad behavior" you honestly mean immoral acts, then I see nothing wrong with that. As if it would be praiseworthy to suffer injustice. If someone defies my request to respect my household rules, and stomps their muddy combat boots all over my silk, persian rug, I will certainly take actions that you may deem as "cultish", and eject them from my premises for their "bad behavior".
This is just plain silly. I wasn't talking about "household rules." Do you make this stuff up all the time?
Again, there is a very odd standard you are placing on this "guru". The reality that 60% of marriages end in divorce are related to a high rate of "sexual perversion" in human behavior. If engaging in some type of sexual misconduct at one point in our life-spans, is a criteria for being a guru, then I'd wager heavily that the mass majority of humans are all gurus.
Now, you are making up statistics. The divorce rate in the US has never been 60%. Also, many of these divorces happen with people who have multiple divorces (Larry King, Elizabeth Taylor, etc.). A person on their second marriage is more likely to get divorced than someone on their first marrige. Therefore, an overwhelmingly majority of people who get married never get a divorce.

Rand's perversion consists of other things as well. Most people, for example, do not marry someone to avoid deportation.

Most people who have affairs or flings regard them as terrible mistakes. I do not know of any person (other than Rand and Branden) who told them that such an affair was rational. If the affair was rational, one has to wonder about the reasons for the secrecy regarding it. Considering all the pride and self-esteem they had, Rand and Branden should have told everyone about it.

I was not able to find stats on the causes of divorce. Infidelity sometimes is a cause. But there are other causes.
It is easier to draw a black and white line between what is or what is not intellectual property. As any of us should understand, Ayn Rand was a strong protestant of the cult of "moral grayness". So, once more it seems that having a strong moral compass, intense moral integrity and firm convictions are all qualities of a "cultish guru".
What in the world does this to have to do with the original comment?
I am getting the idea that you hold cynical views of such an archetype. I gather that this animosity is pertinent to different characters in the past who were deemed as cultish leaders/gurus, and supported irrational premises or malevolent philosophies.
Actually, I have judged these gurus by their actions. Quite a few of them called themselves "Objectivists."


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