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Post 120

Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin:

John A.,

My judgment was based on comparing Kurt's examples to Rand's hypothetical. There was nothing in her -- not my -- hypothetical justifying attacking another country in order to make it a little less oppressed or "add hope"


Taking her hypothetical I don't think she presumed omniscience (that we would know for sure our actions would make a previously oppressed society free) nor do I think she presumed omnipotence (we could always to a Platonic Ideal establish a free Objectivist society). For example is friendly fire the same as intentional killing? We obviously have a different measure for what is moral based on intention.

I would say establishing a perfectly free society and anything less as a failure is an absurd standard for measuring success and not one Rand meant in that hypothetical. We don't live in a perfectly free society, does that mean we have no moral high ground to topple a more oppressive regime like the Taliban? Nor can we say with omniscience our actions will be successful, but at least an attempt is made as opposed to inaction, which by any rational measure inaction means guaranteed failure. Obviously there are degrees of freedom, and a step towards freedom away from oppression is a positive step. What I object to is the lack of comparison for evaluating what is a better society, and the idea that unless it is perfect it isn't worth it. Or that there is nothing good about having "hope" (rational hope) whereas before there was none.

Also, the purpose of the U.S.'s attack on Afghanistan was that the Taliban was harboring Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda.


Of course. But as a corollary it isn't immoral to endeavor to establish a better society in Afghanistan than what they had before. Just as South Korea, Germany, Italy, Japan, and dozens of other countries because of our intervention became free societies. I believe in the long run it will serve our interests.

Post 121

Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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John Armaos wrote:
Intrinsically near-continuous warfare is neither bad nor good and is also indistinguishable from saying near-continuous crack down on crime is bad.
Why do you think we have a War on Drug (users)?

As I've long suspected, evidently you do not find peace to be a desirable state of affairs. According to you it's neither good nor bad.

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Post 122

Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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Rick you seem to completely misunderstand me.

Why do you think we have a War on Drug (users)?


And is there a war on murder? A war on fraud? A war on rape? Are these continuous wars? So long as there are people who want to take away someone's freedom, it is just to have a war to stop those aggressors. So just declaring a war on something doesn't mean it is bad or good, it depends on what it is you are declaring war on, specifically war on the destroyers, the violators of our rights is good. Hopefully you can understand that but something tells me you'll construe my words to mean I am a blood thirsty imperialist that wants to oppress the world blah blah blah..... You can join bin Laden in that propaganda campaign if you'd like.

As I've long suspected, evidently you do not find peace to be a desirable state of affairs. According to you it's neither good nor bad.


Peace in what context? What about peace living under a totalitarian regime? Is that a desirable peace? Peace with freedom is good, peace without context is meaningless, and unless you want to act to protect that freedom or sanction those that act on your behalf to protect your freedom, you deserve neither peace nor freedom.


(Edited by John Armaos on 1/30, 7:22pm)


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Post 123

Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
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"it follows we should be extraordinarily skeptical about getting involved in any conflict that takes place outside U.S. soil, and in particular if we haven't actually been attacked first in an incident involving the deaths of thousands of U.S. citizens." Jim H.

Yet you already dismissed Pearl Harbor as justifying entering WWII. Also, we've already had 9/11 with "the deaths of thousands of U.S. citizens" on U.S. soil. Do you think the military effort in Afghanistan was or is justified then?

Further, what do you propose the U.S. government do, if anything, to protect global trade routes? Even Jefferson was willing to go after the pirates, not merely have ships patrol our shores.

"...given the long and sordid history of U.S. involvement in wars in which we could have stayed neutral without anything particularly bad happening to our citizens, and in which we were oftentimes, in retrospect, the aggressor..."

That is most definitely not a given. That's a historical thesis that I would very much like to see you expand and defend, if you can.

I agree that war should not be undertaken lightly. It's expensive, disruptive, and yes can all too readily lead to an unwarranted expansion of the powers of an already too intrusive Federal government. But I try to keep my sense of perspective and chastise them for what they do wrong, while still recognizing that they have a legitimate role to play in protecting the citizens rights. And, when they act in that role I offer support, even when they do it less than perfectly.

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 1/30, 5:31pm)


Post 124

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 6:21amSanction this postReply
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Keep in mind that Afghanistan has virtually no infrastructure to create good government and most of Iraq's is gone, making the endeavor difficult.  Couple that with the mixed premises of our government along with the opposition party's investment in failure, it won't be easy.  You cannot expect a country to jump that many centuries in the blink of an eye, either.  There will have to be some very imperfect steps between.  For example, South Korea was pretty much a dictatorship for quite some time.

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Post 125

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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You cannot expect a country to jump that many centuries in the blink of an eye, either


Indeed, it never ceases to amaze me how so many people who take 6 years to buy a car and 40 years to buy a house nevertheless are impatient that a perfect liberal constitutional market based democracy doesnt spring up out a rotting cesspool of an area surrounding by dictatorial tyrants in a just a month or two.

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Post 126

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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You cannot expect a country to jump that many centuries in the blink of an eye, either.
You cannot expect a country to leap forward in any number of years without the proper philosophical foundation within the country either. Do the people of Iraq or Afghanistan possess said foundation? There is a good reason for the lack of cornfields on the Arabian desert. You and Armaos can sow your own corn in the desert if you wish, but stay away from my silo (a metaphor, given the tax regime).

 
Indeed, it never ceases to amaze me how so many people who take 6 years to buy a car and 40 years to buy a house nevertheless are impatient that a perfect liberal constitutional market based democracy doesnt spring up out a rotting cesspool of an area surrounding by dictatorial tyrants in a just a month or two.
What examples can you offer of any liberal constitutional market based democracy that sprang from a rotting cesspool surrounded by dictatorial tyrants? Did the U.S.A. spring from a rotting cesspool surrounded by dictatorial tyrants?


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Post 127

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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Indeed, it never ceases to amaze me how so many people who take 6 years to buy a car and 40 years to buy a house nevertheless are impatient that a perfect liberal constitutional market based democracy doesnt spring up out a rotting cesspool of an area surrounding by dictatorial tyrants in a just a month or two.


Perhaps because it doesn't take an arm or a leg [or 1,000s of lives] to procure a car or a home...


Post 128

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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Postwar Germany and Japan and modern India might be examples of what Merlin is asking for in #126.  On the other hand, they might not.  Germany had centuries of cultural (if not political) advantages that Iraq and Afghanistan don't have, and India had the civilizing tradition of the English.  Japan had made a start on representative government before the 1930s.

The eastern European countries after the fall of the USSR  might also count.  Russia itself seems to have failed.  China may yet succeed.


Post 129

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin:

You cannot expect a country to leap forward in any number of years without the proper philosophical foundation within the country either. Do the people of Iraq or Afghanistan possess said foundation?


Did the South Koreans possess said foundation? But more importantly the premise in your question seems to imply such a foundation cannot take hold especially with a pro-freedom liberal constitutional republic like the United States influencing their culture, just as that influence took hold in South Korea. The very presence of the West gives them an opportunity to head in that direction of a philosophical foundation whereas before under the Talibn no hope for such a foundation existed.

What examples can you offer of any liberal constitutional market based democracy that sprang from a rotting cesspool surrounded by dictatorial tyrants?


South Korea and Japan.

You and Armaos can sow your own corn in the desert if you wish, but stay away from my silo (a metaphor, given the tax regime).


This is weak. Your tax dollars also pay for police protection and the courts to settle disputes in addition to a military to protect your interests. Mike Dickey nor I take your money, mine is taken right along with yours so your anger is misdirected, and considering you reap the benefits of others who serve to protect you and your interests your anger is also misguided. We can argue for the protection of our rights by eliminating the tyrants that threaten our interests while simultaneously arguing for a system of voluntary taxation, just as we can argue for the protection of our rights by locking up domestic criminals into prisons while simultaneously arguing for a system of voluntary taxation. We don't forfeit our moral claim to have our rights protected or pay agents on our behalf to do so because our taxes are taken without our consent.

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Post 130

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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Robert:





Perhaps because it doesn't take an arm or a leg [or 1,000s of lives] to procure a car or a home...


I'm sorry are you in the military? Did you lose a limb? I suspect no. So I guess you can't really complain about that can you?

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Post 131

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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You cannot expect a country to leap forward in any number of years without the proper philosophical foundation within the country either


I do not expect 'countries' to do anything, they are nothing more than a collection of ideas among individuals.


Do the people of Iraq or Afghanistan possess said foundation?


Some do, but most do not. Any particular reason you can think of why the majority of people who live under tha jackboot heel of a murderous dictator might not posess the philosophical foundations of freedom? Allowing said muderous dictator to continue his brutal oppression and indoctrination certainly isnt going to help change anyone's minds about freedom, especially when adovcates of personal freedom are routinely jailed, tortured, or 'disappeared' in nations like these. Vietnam and China still routinely imprison people for the crime of writing articles about democracy.


What examples can you offer of any liberal constitutional market based democracy that sprang from a rotting cesspool surrounded by dictatorial tyrants?


South Korea, Chile, and Japan are some examples off the top of my head, but the question is irrelavnt since Real Politik / containment of communism governed foriegn policy decisions for the past 50 years, not the promulgation of liberal representative democracies.


Did the U.S.A. spring from a rotting cesspool surrounded by dictatorial tyrants?


Um, yeah, since every other nation in the world has always been less free than the US since it's inception, with a few modern examples deviating from that in the last couple years.

Post 132

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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England got in the business of securing rights for persons and property in an effective manner sometime in the 19th century. The Brits abolished slavery around 1832 and bolstered the institutions that provided a good measure of rights protection and justice to most of the people.

From the signing of Magna Carta to this proper evolution of rights only took 600 years (count'em). The people who established the American republic were the inheritors of this slow growth and even so, slavery was not abolished in the U.S. until 1865.

Getting there takes a long time.

Bob Kolker


Post 133

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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Indeed, it never ceases to amaze me how so many people who take 6 years to buy a car and 40 years to buy a house nevertheless are impatient that a perfect liberal constitutional market based democracy doesnt spring up out a rotting cesspool of an area surrounding by dictatorial tyrants in a just a month or two.


Perhaps because it doesn't take an arm or a leg [or 1,000s of lives] to procure a car or a home...

Robert, your response makes no sense to me.  My point is, it's much more difficult to faciliate the forming of a liberal constitutional democracy than it is to build a car or a home, yet people insiste it should be quicker than either. 


 


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Post 134

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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From the signing of Magna Carta to this proper evolution of rights only took 600 years (count'em). The people who established the American republic were the inheritors of this slow growth and even so, slavery was not abolished in the U.S. until 1865.

Getting there takes a long time.

Bob Kolker


Don't forget the original foundations laid in Ancient Greece 2,000 years ago. So since it took over 3,000 years of progress for the greatest beacon of freedom to come to being, it ought to always take that long in every case? Remember, this course and the time incurred included the invention, discovery, recognition etc of these ideas. It took 90,000 years for humans to build the first airplane, it only takes about 9 weeks to build one now.


Post 135

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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BTW Robert, I was unable to find the book you mentioned earlier... there are quite a few on Amazon with the word nonviolence in their titles...

Post 136

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
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Mike Dickey

Don't forget the original foundations laid in Ancient Greece 2,000 years ago. So since it took over 3,000 years of progress for the greatest beacon of freedom to come to being, it ought to always take that long in every case? Remember, this course and the time incurred included the invention, discovery, recognition etc of these ideas. It took 90,000 years for humans to build the first airplane, it only takes about 9 weeks to build one now.


Excellent point Mike. Others have already laid down the groundwork for our modern enlightenment. It's as if we are comparing how long it took to invent the airplane, (thousands of years of science and engineering to get to the point of inventing a plane) and insist every other country on this planet must go through the whole thousands of years process of being able to produce an airplane. Others can learn, and learn quickly since the knowledge is already there for the taking.

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Post 137

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Well, again to borrow from Thomas PM Barnett, the idea is to create a level of security and "link up" the country to the global economy.  Globalism provides the means to slowly but surely create that influence as it seduces people by allowing them to have a better life (go figure, people like that).  That is why it is fought so hard by the fundamentalists.  Once connected - like the Eastern Bloc during Glastnos' - the corruption (of a good kind) begins.

Post 138

Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 4:13pmSanction this postReply
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http://www.amazon.com/Nonviolence-Lessons-History-Dangerous-Chronicles/dp/0679643354/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201824597&sr=1-2

Since got mine from QPB, not thought of many others with same title - sorry.....


Post 139

Friday, February 1, 2008 - 5:13amSanction this postReply
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I expected you guys would reply with South Korea and Japan. Both are extremely weak  comparisons to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, the U.S. did not invade South Korea. After WWII U.S.S.R. and U.S. troops controlled the northern and southern halves of the country. The two rivals established governments sympathetic to their own ideologies, leading to Korea's division into two political entities, North and South Korea (Wikipedia). In 1950 North Korea invaded South Korea and the U.S. intervened on the South Korea's behalf. It was hardly a "cesspool" like Iraq or Afghanistan, especially an Islamic one.

Japan was a democracy and economic power before WWII. The U.S. attacked Japan after Pearl Harbor, and Japan came roaring back economically after a brief occupation by the Allied powers until 1952. Japan was devastated by WWII, but it wasn't a "cesspool" like Iraq or Afghanistan, especially an Islamic one. About the only reason Iraq might not be considered a "cesspool" is the discovery of oil there by the British and a few Kurds. And what does Afghanistan export? Narcotics.

Michael Dickey:
Don't forget the original foundations laid in Ancient Greece 2,000 years ago. So since it took over 3,000 years of progress for the greatest beacon of freedom to come to being, it ought to always take that long in every case?
I don't see the relevance. It was the Muslims who preserved Greek texts, which enabled their reintroduction to the wider world. But look at the state of Islamic nations today. They've had the same 2,000+ years as non-Islamic nations. Oil, discovered and extracted by foreigners, is about the only thing going for them. And without the beacon of freedom of the Enlightenment, such texts would still be "just texts". See any Enlightenment happening in Islam-land?


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