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Post 20

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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What an amazing coincidence!  I was just reading a similar fantasy in the movie thread!  Maybe such people should become Manga artists or something useful with such a talent for inventing perjoratives out of thin air. 

Anyway, in response to the last sane post, here in America today we have some jurisdictions in which a single attorney handles all the hundreds of cases of people too poor to afford an attorney on their own.  And, in at least on case shown on Larry King Live, such attorney has no trouble handling all the cases simultaneously since he has arrived at a simple solution:  plead GUILTY!  In every case.  Without exception.  Hey, you don't trust your cops to make a good arrest?  Maybe you're one of them thar "Enemy Combatants," huh?

In other jurisdictions, thousands of dollars of Public Defender time are spent on individual Defendants.  There is no logic behind the relative choices made by whatever combination of bureaucrats and politicians are involved.  It's precedent, TRADITION!!!, and whatever the subjective inclinations of the person in charge for the moment dictate, or what they can get away with.

States respond to the threat of public animousity.  The squeeky wheel syndrome means that money is poured, not into what succeeds, but whatever fails.  Bureaucracies in private businesses behave similarly, but at least they have a market to compare their decisions against, and, if they screw up royalty, then the competition eats their lunch.  Not a problem.  But when the state finally runs out of resources, as the German state did under Hitler, then there are BIG problems.  The real reason for WWII was simply that the NAZI state had bankrupted the country, taking out loans basically to pay for all the wonderful welfare and wage programs that bought them the votes.

Steve wrote: "So let's say that the CEO of Acme protective agency has that proposal in front of him.  I guess you are going to say that for him there is no morality - only the bottom line.  If it is profitable to go kill thousands (not in defense since his clients haven't been attacked) off he will go - maybe the idea is to open a new market in this country...."

Obviously the CEO of ACME has to take into consideration the costs of his decisions.  If he decides to intervene, then any innocent civilians injured or killed will likely result in major claims against ACME.  He'd either better have a rock solid trail of evidence to support every decision - showing that the net result was clearly better for the general population, for example, or have a large contingency fund or really solid insurance policy.

This is why the Norman invaders got rid of the Good and Ancient Common Law and replaced it with a bastardized version with judges appointed by them, and limits on what juries could consider.  Under the Common Law, the Anglo Saxons could have sued the Norman soldiers individually or in class action for every murder, rape and pillage.  So the Normans didn't eliminate the Common Law, as that would have let to general chaos.  Instead, they corrupted and perverted it to serve their interests as needed.

Steve wrote:  "Or, maybe he runs the numbers and decides that even if had clients in that country it is better to lose them and take a temporary hit in Acme's reputation and lose a little bit of market share rather than take on such a large conflict.  (Then he can take the money saved by not protecting a few Nastronia clients and set up a new ad campaign and get new customers)."

True enough.  There's no perfect protection.  You might get mugged or murdered for petty cash in the Congo, too.  Don't expect the U.S. to press charges or send in the cavalry.  Clearly ACME will weigh those kind of alternatives and I can't see anything wrong with it, although heroic rescues also make for really good publicity.


Post 21

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 6:57pmSanction this postReply
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What an amazing coincidence!  I was just reading a similar fantasy in the movie thread!  Maybe such people should become Manga artists or something useful with such a talent for inventing perjoratives out of thin air. 
Yes because I got  this out of thin air:

Phil Osburn: "I don't..have anything particularly against man-boy love"

Post 49

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/Movies/0140_2.shtml


Post 22

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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How amazing that someone should be able to write and use the web, yet not be able read and understand what is written....

Post 23

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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Nice try Phil at evading. You can either explain yourself here or concede you are tolerant of child rape.

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Post 24

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 7:57pmSanction this postReply
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I thought Phil explained it well. I understood him to be saying that the age difference makes for a power-differential that makes consent impossible, which makes it rape.

You quoted him selectively.



(Edited by Jon Letendre
on 4/05, 7:58pm)


Post 25

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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No Jon, Phil did not say the age differential made consent impossible. In no way did he say this, at best he implied it was something that was "tricky". But he said he had nothing against "man-boy love". I made no attempt to deceive anyone in my quote of him. Here is the full quote, and you tell me at what point Phil said consent between a man and a boy was impossible?

I don't obsess, BTW, about "boy-lovers." I don't even have anything particularly against man-boy love, so long as it's voluntary on both party's parts, which is a trick, however, in itself, given the power imbalance...

(Edited by John Armaos
on 4/05, 9:07pm)


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Post 26

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 9:50pmSanction this postReply
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Phil wrote, “I think that for most Greeks the boy-loving was recreational. For the Spartans it was mandatory.”

John responded, “[I] find it nothing more than harping on a non-issue.”

A “non-issue”! John believes that mandatory boy loving is a non-issue!

I’m kidding, of course.


The context of Phil’s tricky quote is from the 300 thread, where his references to boy loving are made as CRITICISMS of the Spartans. I’m not going to say anymore about this because for all I know he does tolerate such. He can speak for himself—I wouldn’t blame him for ignoring you. I will say that the context makes your interpretation seem ludicrous and highly uncharitable. So I found your attack on this thread, with the selective quoting and ludicrous interpretation of his meaning, to be unjust.

And for what it’s worth: you’ve wiped the floor with him on the 300 thread. You could have stopped many posts earlier and still won twice. When you find yourself doing stuff like this on a different thread, you should consider taking a breather.


Post 27

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 10:28pmSanction this postReply
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When you find yourself doing stuff like this on a different thread, you should consider taking a breather.


Doing stuff like what? Holding people accountable to what they say? Interpreting what someone says to the literal meaning of their words?


(Edited by John Armaos
on 4/05, 10:33pm)


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Post 28

Friday, April 6, 2007 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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Just a note - 'power differential' is a Marxist notion, not an Objectivist one.......

Post 29

Friday, April 6, 2007 - 8:13amSanction this postReply
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In his last post, Phil, engaged in what could only be called a disjointed rant.  Something about public defenders and the "real" reasons for WWII, and something about the Norman invaders getting rid of the Good and Ancient Common Law - I see no reason for these statements.  He quoted some of my post, but I don't know why, because he didn't answer the question actually posed.  If I were Phil, I would try to control myself and not make this kind of post because they look so embarrassingly like paranoid, conspiracy theory mutterings.

I pointed out that his previous post completely missed the point of this thread, of my posts, and of the poll.  I said it was about the question of what makes it moral to invade another nation - to launch a war.  That, obviously, requires a moral answer.  His previous post didn't address that question or even make sense in this context.  I pointed that out.  But he still doesn't get it because his last post also doesn't address it.


Post 30

Saturday, April 7, 2007 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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And my point was to demonstrate that the question itself may be meaningless or inherently unanswerable, due to the problems of calculating value from the standpoint of a coercive monopoly, one of the chief economic arguments that the Austrian School brought against socialism.  Regarding that point, I provided examples of how the justice system internally is clueless as to how to make such decisions, much less in the case of dealing with relatively unknown conditions and factors in another nation state. 

Post 31

Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 3:35pmSanction this postReply
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To consider the question is to concede that one is considering participation in a group effort. In the face of a single thug,  individuals don't choose to wage war or wage peace, they choose to fight , they choose to convince, or not.   

In the face of a thug or mob of thugs holding an entire nation in thrall, with access to that nation's resources and the ability to project violence across a wide swath,  individuals either accede to some group action, or not.    Individuals decide what kind of world they want to live in, and then act accordingly, which is to say, selfishly.  Different individuals want to live in different kinds of worlds, which is their right to want.

So, the entire question of 'going to war' only makes sense in the context of a group or national activity.   If one finds oneself in a group or national context in which the group collective decision is not aligned with ones personal wishes, there are only three ethical choices:

1] Fight politically to sway the mob in the opposite direction.  Ie, convince the occupiers of skins not your own that they should want to live in your world.
2] Live with it.
3] Leave the group/nation and the benefits that group/nation are offering as payment for supporting the actions of that group/nation.   If you find them unsupportable, it would be unethical to either support or benefit from membership in same.

Nastonia?   Sure enough sounds nasty.  Watch PBS "Ghosts of Rwanda," or just read the transcript.   Read David Reiff's "A Bed for the Night: Humanitarianism in Crisis."   Read Dallaire's "Shake hands with the Devil."   TRY and lookup Sen Bob Kerrey's confession of what we just let happen in 1996 in Iraq, and why the 1998 ILA was signed.  (http://www.jfklibrary.org/forum_kerrey.html).   Find the transcript, then scan down to the paragraphs that begin "And at the risk of going to jail for saying this--" and read the exchange between Dick Gordon and Bob Kerrey.     What?  Page Not Found? Can't find it?  It was there for years.  Gee, it seems to have been purged for some reason--unlike most of their past talks.  For some reason, only this one needed cleaned off their server.   Not to worry: fortunately there is this: http://web.archive.org/web/20060305055810/www.jfklibrary.org/forum_kerrey.html   (It's really hard to cleanup the net. Thank you 'Wayback' machine.)   Anyway, there is plenty of useful real world background for these 'group' decisions.

But back to your hypothetical, it is a good one, albeit a necessarily group one; how do individuals participate in such group decisions?  I think, on the basis of imperfect information(see Kerrey confession).

I'm walking down the street, and a perfect stranger is getting the living crap kicked out of him across the street by 3 thugs.   It would dangerous to cross the street, it would be dangerous to enter into a 3 on 1 free for all.   How do I decide?  I decide selfishly, by choosing what kind of a world I want to live in, and what kind of a world I'm willing to surrender to the whims of thugs. 

regards,
Fred


Post 32

Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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I suppose it has to be considered a positive that someone who make such a stupid slander wouldn't be able to spell my name...
(Edited by Phil Osborn on 4/11, 8:35pm)

(Edited by Phil Osborn on 4/11, 8:36pm)


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