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Post 100

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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I don't have any problem with Sam's "disillusionment" (I assume that's a fair characterization) with openly gay actors playing straight characters. I do think it's more of a personal quirk than a reasoned position. But I don't think there's "anything wrong with that" because we're talking about aesthetics and optional values.
I don't think it's just a matter of esthetics and optional values. If, as you say, it's not a "reasoned position" -- if reason would dictate otherwise -- then how can there not be anything wrong with it? Granted, an emotional response is an involuntary reaction, but it can be rational or irrational, depending on one's subconscious values. If those values are inappropriate, then the emotional response will be inappropriate. I don't think you can dismiss it as an "optional value," any more than you can dismiss an aversion to voting for a gay presidential candidate as an optional value. The "personal quirk" you're talking about is a kind of prejudice, isn't it? I'll admit that I had trouble accepting Richard Chamberlain's character in "The Thorn Birds," knowing that he was gay, but I'm not defending it either.

Here's an interesting question: If you knew that a movie actor were a collectivist in real life, like Warren Beatty, could you accept his playing one of Rand's heroes in the movie, Atlas Shrugged? If not, and you knew that an actor were pro-liberty, like Tom Selleck, could you accept his playing one of the villains? If the latter, what is the difference? Perhaps, it's easier to accept an actor whose values one respects in the role of a character that one disrespects than it is to accept an actor whose values one disrespects in the role of a character that one respects.

- Bill

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Post 101

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
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With Bill and Sam's recent posting of material from politically incorrect hamburger flippers and show tunes, I'm feeling nostalgic for an age where one didn't have to watch one's tongue.

We need to go back to those days and spread our values more widely in the culture. Why should Objectivists have all the fun of being rude, crude, and lewd?

:-)

Post 102

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 2:44pmSanction this postReply
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(Edited by Newberry
on 5/12, 2:45pm)


Post 103

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 4:57pmSanction this postReply
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"If, as you say, it's not a "reasoned position" -- if reason would dictate otherwise -- then how can there not be anything wrong with it?"

Bill, I don't hold that all values are the results of conscious premises or subject to remediation through cogitation. Basic biological values and drives are to some extent inborn and/or genetically mediated. No one comes to prefer chocolate over vanilla ice-cream through a process of reasoning. Babies don't suckle and cry because of their conceptual inductions. And matters of sexual attraction in so far as they are biologically mediated by hormones and pheromones are not matters of choice.

The difference is that between the irrational (false - anti-reason) and the a-rational (reasoning does not apply). Rand often seemed to imply that all values come from explicit premises. This intellectualism - this idea that all values are the result of a process of cogitation - is perhaps the central problem with the Objectivist ethics as it is presented. The solution is not a rejection of the Objectivist ethics. The solution is the explicit recognition of the difference between basic values that arise from a matter of our animal nature (basal sex-drive, hunger, pain-avoidance) and higher acquired rational values that arise through experience and either implicit or explicit reasoning.

Had I said that Sam's dislike for homosexual actors playing heterosexual leads was based on an unrecognized fear that he might be the subject of the actor's advances himself, then I might think there was something for him to work out with a therapist.

Here's the question I would ask. If Sam knew that an actor were fully bisexual, and had romantic relationships with both men and women, would he still find that actor's playing a heterosexual character objectionable? And would his objection be one of moral disapproval: "He shouldn't be allowed to touch a woman!" Or would it be more again a matter of aesthetics? "I really wish they had cast a manly-man."

Ted Keer

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 5/12, 8:37pm)


Post 104

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 5:11pmSanction this postReply
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What is this, Michael - ye at a loss for words????? ;-)

Post 105

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
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I'll just stand back and let you guys psychoanalyze me. I'll take notes.   :-)

Sam


Post 106

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
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Sounds like a Freudian slip to me, Sam......;-)

Post 107

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 10:17pmSanction this postReply
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Sam wrote,
Bill W: "You know that he doesn't actually love his screen wife."
You meant Bill D.
Of course, that's what makes him a good actor. But if he's known to be gay you know that it's impossible for him to have those emotions. Perhaps this is just a quirk of mine but I don't make any apology.
No apology needed. Let's grant that it's impossible for a gay actor to have the emotions of a heterosexual. It's also impossible for a normal person to have the emotions of a psychopathic murderer. Does that mean that you'd have difficulty accepting a normal actor in such a role, and only find someone like Charles Manson believable? And if not, what do think is the difference?

Ted, I agree that not every biological drive is the result of a conceptual value judgment, but I think that one's emotions surrounding this issue definitely are. I don't think it makes sense to say that they're irreducible primaries having nothing to do with one's conscious evaluations.

Btw, what do you have against Tom Cruise? I think he's an excellent actor, despite his being a Scientology zealot!

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 5/12, 10:18pm)


Post 108

Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
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You got me there, Robert. According to Freud that would be a subconscious wish fulfillment.  :-)

Bill: "Does that mean that you'd have difficulty accepting a normal actor in such a role, and only find someone like Charles Manson believable? And if not, what do think is the difference?"

From my post #88:
"There is a difference between what an actor brings to the role and what he conveys. Anthony Hopkins is believable as a serial killer because he is a good actor but I doubt that if Hannibal Lecter played a Casper Milquetoast character that he would be believable no matter how good an actor he was.

Similarly, I would have difficulty with a straight actor playing a serious part as a homosexual."


To me, it's a matter of miscasting and it's not just a matter of physical appearance. You can't separate what you already know about the actor in his personal life from his role. Just picture Michael Moore as John Galt. Compartmentalization, anyone?

Sam


 


Post 109

Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:23amSanction this postReply
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Just picture Michael Moore as John Galt.
In this case, is just the physique alone which disbelieves - Galt would NEVER let himself go like a fat slob.....


Post 110

Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:25amSanction this postReply
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Bill, yeah, I'd agree that higher level evaluations can influence the expression of underlying drives. But besides emotions there are feelings, desires, urges, and so forth. This is the subject for a book long treatise. I'd refer people to Steven Johnson's Mind Wide Open, Antonio Damasio's Descartes Error and the general works of Olivers Sacks and Temple Grandin for extra-mural works from authors with wide understandings and rational worldviews.

Sam, I won't pester, but would a bi guy playing a straight role be a problem?

As for Tom Cruise, he's been in a few good films, and I liked The Firm immensely (it was even better than the book) but he usually seems to ruin movies for me - I can't forget who he is in the real world.

A friend has some comments on women and their perception of male sexuality. I'll try to get him to post. If he doesn't, I'll report his observations.

Ted

Post 111

Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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"Sam, I won't pester, but would a bi guy playing a straight role be a problem?"

Probably not, but it might depend on the role and the actor.

Sam




Post 112

Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 3:36pmSanction this postReply
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"it might depend on the role and the actor"

Sounds reasonable. I see no problem with the supposedly bisexual Marlon Brando, Cary Grant or James Dean as romantic male leads.

My friend mentioned above has his hair braided weekly at a black hair-salon. The girls that work there recently explained to him how they had become disillusioned with the singer Maxwell (right) after he filmed some music videos where he sat in a bath blowing bubbles and behaved in other ways which they saw as effeminate. Yet these same women had no problem with the androgynous artist Prince (left) since he was this way upfront from the beginning. They found Prince's open androgyny intriguing, and Maxwell's revealed effeminacy a turn-off. One of the girls related how she had dated a bisexual guy with whom she had watched gay porn. The only reason she called it off with him was because he was unfaithful and she didn't trust her children around him after she discovered the extent of his promiscuity. It wasn't the sexuality - it was the revelation.

Ted Keer



Post 113

Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 5:07pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

Cute baby picture but I prefer the adult you.


Post 114

Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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Sam wrote,
Anthony Hopkins is believable as a serial killer because he is a good actor but I doubt that if Hannibal Lecter played a Casper Milquetoast character that he would be believable no matter how good an actor he was.
So, what do you think is the difference? You've said that a non-serial killer (Anthony Hopkins) is believable as a serial killer, because he is a good actor, but that a non-heterosexual is not believable as a heterosexual, even if he is a good actor. You're saying, in other words, that a good actor can make the role believable in the one case, but not in the other. Why?
You can't separate what you already know about the actor in his personal life from his role.
If so, then since you know that Anthony Hopkins is not a serial killer, how can you separate what you know about him from his role? You add, "Just picture Michael Moore as John Galt. Compartmentalization, anyone?" But don't you also have to compartmentalize in the case of Anthony Hopkins' playing Hannible Lector? And if you can compartmentalize in his case, why can't you in the case of Michael Moore (assuming he were a consummate actor)? What's different about these two cases?

- Bill

Post 115

Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
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Bill: "But don't you also have to compartmentalize in the case of Anthony Hopkins' playing Hannible Lector? "

No, because I don't know anything about Anthony Hopkin's life and mentality that is in any substantial way different from my own. Maybe if you were making a movie directed towards an audience of serial killers Hannible Lector might be credible to them as a Casper Milquetoast — I don't know.

I  don't have any credentials as a casting director but I would think that one should select actors who have personal characteristics as close as possible to the characters they portray — or do you disagree?

Sam


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Post 116

Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, I think Rand would have been sympathetic to Sam's statements regarding one's emotional reactions towards certain actors in dramas. There is an incredible sum of influences that go into whether someone does or not respond to an actor, a piece of music, a painting, and so forth. One can stand back and say that one admires a certain piece of music because it brings out feelings of such and such and so forth, and therefore one responds to it positively. But if one person finds Mozart lighthearted and another finds Mozart trite, or one person finds Beethoven majestic while another finds him overbearing, we just don't have the scientific knowledge or the insight into that person's soul (or perhaps that person doesn't have the introspective insight into himself) to be able to put into words what our ultimate underlying motivations are.

This is not a frightful dilemma or a challenge to the idea of rationally examining aesthetics or our personal responses - it's one of the yet to be solved mysteries of the human psyche and a realm of personal exploration that we may or may not chose to invest our time in. So long as there are no perversities or blatant and harmful contradictions in our responses to art and to performers, so long as watching the Sound of Music doesn't evoke a contextless murderous rage or contemplating Evard Munch doesn't bizarrely make us feel like a joyous schoolboy, there is little to worry about. Aesthetics is not politics. It is optional. We are not dealing with actual matters of life and death held in our hands or over other's heads.

In so far as you can enjoy X and I can't, the loss is mine. Some people enjoy everything - shallowly. Some people are very particular, and very passionate about only those particulars. We do not "murder to dissect." But argument can become overkill.

Ted Keer

PS Elsewhere I stated that Rand did enjoy Sinclair Lewis, and was questioned on this, as she did criticize him as a naturalist. I came across a reference in Britting's biographical sketch where she answered "Sinclair lewis" to the query of favorite author in a survey by Macmillan publishing that she filled out when We The Living was published.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 5/14, 9:56am)


Post 117

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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     Hmmm...probs with seeing a perceived gay pretending to be a hetero, but relatively little prob re the other way 'round.

     I admit that I had probs when the rumored gayness of Rock Hudson became more than gossip (except amongst the H'wood cognoscenti.) Ntl, my perception of his image changed not upon rewatching GIANT.

     Anyone seen DE-LOVELY with Kevin Kline and Ashley Judd?

     For that matter, remember BASIC INSTINCT with Sharon Stone and...Leilani Sarelle?

LLAP
J:D


Post 118

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 5:04pmSanction this postReply
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Mmm, Instinct...



Post 119

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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Rghlrlll, More Instinct...





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