About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


Post 20

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 10:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A real-life example to highlight the issues being discussed here:

A neighbor kid came to our house and offered to mow our lawn, "free" of charge, to fulfill a school assignment by his teacher to do community service. My wife gratefully accepted this offer.

So, should someone with an enlightened Objectivist POV gently point out to the kid that their teacher is trying to indoctrinate them into an evil philosophy of death, and encourage them to go back to their teacher and resolutely refuse to participate in this required community service?

And should the Objectivist do this AFTER the lawn gets mowed, since otherwise they'd be sacrificing their own interests by passing up the offer? Or is it morally wrong to accept the offer, since it is acquiescing to evil?

Post 21

Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I actually would probably do this:
1)  Tell him that the teacher was wrong, and he has no obligation to provide community service.
2)  Pay him anyway.


Post 22

Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim,

I'd tell the kid to go ahead and mow my lawn, I'd pay her for it, and then I'd tell her to tell her teacher ...

============
-that I wasn't the type of person who accepts the unearned -- i.e., the type of person who could bring himself to feel entitled to someone else's time, talent, wealth, and/or energy

-that I saw the kid as an end in herself, rather than merely as a means to get my lawn mowed

-that, in doing so, I was respecting the kid's very humanity; her status as an individual -- i.e., the fundamental unit of value in society
============

If she were quite young, I'd write these 3 points down on a piece of paper for her to hand to her parents, first -- and let the parents follow-up with the teacher (if they were so inclined).

But no matter the kid's age, I'd spend a moment of my time attempting to communicate what's inherently good about folks earning values, rather than mooching or looting them.

The story of the Goose that laid the Golden Egg might be especially fruitful in communicating this idea. There's also a great children's story book about a bunch of different critters that started living in the antlers of a moose. They were all free-riding; inviting others to join them in treating the moose merely as a means to their ends. The story ends with the moose falling off of a cliff -- knocked off balance by the weight of all the critters living in his antlers.

The critters didn't survive the fall (i.e., their philosophy killed them); but the moose got up and shrugged it off -- IF you know what I mean.

;-)


Ed


Post 23

Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 12:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed writes; Note: Tomasello recently waffled on these findings.

Can you expand on this?

Post 24

Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 12:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A neighbor kid came to our house and offered to mow our lawn, "free" of charge, to fulfill a school assignment by his teacher to do community service. My wife gratefully accepted this offer.

-- What is an Objectivist to do?

I am not an Objectivist, but I see an opening for reason. Rather than scare the child with a barrage of instruction in the evul of Altruism, one could point out that mowing a stranger's lawn is not "community service." Presumably husband and wife are able to do their own lawn with no pain or hardship.

Why does the kid have to be paid in cash? If wife and husband agree that he needs to be 'paid' for his labour, can it not be in kind? "Tell you what, stranger child, we will gladly take your offer, but we need to give you something of value back. This certificate entitles you to a future favour from us."

And why not send the kid down the road to Widow Mortensen's house, noting that she has had to pay a hell of a price to keep her yard kempt since the murder of her husband Mel and her stroke.

Maybe the kid could be helped by imaginative alternatives.



Post 25

Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Richard Dawkin's "The Selfish Gene" basically said that much of what is considered altruism by the layperson, when examined from the perspective of spreading one's genes, is in fact quite selfish behavior.
Note that what appears to be altruism from the organism's point of view is selfish from the gene's point of view.

When reading the title of Dawkin's book the emphasis should be placed on Gene.

It is genes that are selected for when the organism behaves in certain ways.

Post 26

Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 8:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed writes; Note: Tomasello recently waffled on these findings.

Can you expand on this?
Sure, William. Here is the abstract from the study that threatened the dividing line between chimps and humans regarding altruistic or "other-istic" behavior:

=================

Spontaneous Altruism by Chimpanzees and Young Children.

 

People often act on behalf of others. They do so without immediate personal gain, at cost to themselves, and even toward unfamiliar individuals. Many researchers have claimed that such altruism emanates from a species-unique psychology not found in humans' closest living evolutionary relatives, such as the chimpanzee. In favor of this view, the few experimental studies on altruism in chimpanzees have produced mostly negative results.

 

In contrast, we report experimental evidence that chimpanzees perform basic forms of helping in the absence of rewards spontaneously and repeatedly toward humans and conspecifics. In two comparative studies, semi-free ranging chimpanzees helped an unfamiliar human to the same degree as did human infants, irrespective of being rewarded (experiment 1) or whether the helping was costly (experiment 2). In a third study, chimpanzees helped an unrelated conspecific gain access to food in a novel situation that required subjects to use a newly acquired skill on behalf of another individual.

 

These results indicate that chimpanzees share crucial aspects of altruism with humans, suggesting that the roots of human altruism may go deeper than previous experimental evidence suggested.

=================

 

So chimps helped folks out as much as human infants helped folks out. I remember similar experiments where an object was just out of reach of the adult human, and -- after watching the adult repeatedly try to get the object and fail -- the infant grabbed the object and brought it closer to the adult; so that the adult could get to it. I guess chimps do, too. I question any solid implication of this, however (though Tomasello et al. felt it deserved mention when publishing their results).

 

Here is some other research by Tomasello, research which points to an opposite conclusion:

 

=================

Chimpanzees are rational maximizers in an ultimatum game.

Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103, Leipzig, Germany. jensen@eva.mpg.de

 

Traditional models of economic decision-making assume that people are self-interested rational maximizers. Empirical research has demonstrated, however, that people will take into account the interests of others and are sensitive to norms of cooperation and fairness. In one of the most robust tests of this finding, the ultimatum game, individuals will reject a proposed division of a monetary windfall, at a cost to themselves, if they perceive it as unfair. Here we show that in an ultimatum game, humans' closest living relatives, chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes), are rational maximizers and are not sensitive to fairness. These results support the hypothesis that other-regarding preferences and aversion to inequitable outcomes, which play key roles in human social organization, distinguish us from our closest living relatives.

=================

 

=================

Chimpanzees are vengeful but not spiteful.

Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany. jensen@eva.mpg.de

 

People are willing to punish others at a personal cost, and this apparently antisocial tendency can stabilize cooperation. What motivates humans to punish noncooperators is likely a combination of aversion to both unfair outcomes and unfair intentions. Here we report a pair of studies in which captive chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) did not inflict costs on conspecifics by knocking food away if the outcome alone was personally disadvantageous but did retaliate against conspecifics who actually stole the food from them. Like humans, chimpanzees retaliate against personally harmful actions, but unlike humans, they are indifferent to simply personally disadvantageous outcomes and are therefore not spiteful.

=================

 

These last 2 abstracts deal with 'altruistic punishment' -- wherein a moral agent takes on a risk or a cost by punishing others who really do deserve it. It explains vigilante behavior and other brain research into activation of pleasure centers when exposed to justice getting "served" on someone.

 

Disclosure of Conflict of Interest:

Being a former vigilante myself, I have a personal stake in wanting to believe that this research -- research which vindicates both my past behavior and my current "gut-feelings" on the matter -- that this research really does show us how reality really is (rather than showing something else).

 

;-)

 

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/23, 8:44pm)


Post 27

Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 12:07pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, great post.  Thanks.

I think most people have, through a combination of genetic hardwiring modified by social acculturation, acquired the generally rational viewpoint that one should retaliate against those who aggress against them or treat them unfairly, and that on average, this POV serves them well.  What happens, though, is that many of these studies are specifically designed to remove the rewards for retaliation, making the rational response counterintuitive against these instincts and learned behaviors.  A few people think it through, most react emotionally.  That's why, even if it is explained to a person that it is a soulless computer divvying up a cash windfall, many people will still try to punish the computer for splitting up a payout so that the computer gets 99% of the payout and the human gets 1%.  Against a human operator, the threat of such retaliation drives the payout to levels approaching 50/50.

This also explains the irrational behavior of people choosing to vote, even though the odds of their one vote being the decisive one can be millions to one against.  I personally engage in this irrational-seeming behavior, knowing full well how futile this behavior is.  I guess the psychic rewards for protesting bad politicians, however futile the actual results, can be a reward that outweighs the costs of researching politicians and taking the time to go to the polls.

Irony alert:  Is posting comments on an Objectivist website for the edification of others we will never meet, knowing that these posts won't change our lives -- is this an act of altruism, and thus against the principles of Objectivism?


Post 28

Friday, January 25, 2008 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim,

... most people have, through a combination of genetic hardwiring modified by social acculturation, acquired the generally rational viewpoint that one should retaliate against those who aggress against them or treat them unfairly ...
You're correct in that the only kind of temperamental attitude that could've been passed on genetically -- because it's the only attitude that operates via the dynamics of "survival of the fittest" -- is one wherein victims retaliate; and onlookers allow that retaliation to happen (and -- according to brain research -- maybe even ENJOY watching that retaliation happening).

But here's the rub, Jim. Men are a type of creature who'll often retaliate against those who aggress against OTHERS, too (not just against ourselves). When I was younger than I am now, I used to play a game with this girl at school. Call it the "What if ...?" game. She asked me once: "What if you caught a rapist raping your mother? Would you rape him back?

I told her that I'd kill him right there on the spot. She balked. She told me how outrageous she thought that was. She argued that the punishment wouldn't fit the crime. I stuck to my guns. Now granted, that's a special case involving the woman who cared for me as a youngling, but if I thought that a witnessed rape would otherwise go unpunished -- I wouldn't restrict my response to a verbal denouncement of the act or the perpetrator; IF you know what I mean.

... many of these studies are specifically designed to remove the rewards for retaliation, making the rational response counterintuitive against these instincts and learned behaviors.
My big beef with the research is the philosophical bankruptcy of Game Theory professionals. What's assumed as "rational" (as in "Rational Maximizer") is a kind of short-sighted, narrow-minded, cut-throat behavior. It is an acceptance of the Moral-Practical Dichotomy. Folks are smart enough to work together -- they collaborate -- and this has led researchers to claim that there's some inherent, irrational behavior unique to humans (not found in the animal world).

Take the Prisoner's Dilemma. Researchers predicted that folks will rat-out the other guy to minimize jail time. They don't. They hold-out for each other.

Take the Ultimatum Game (explained above). Researchers say it would be "rational" to take any pay-off, no matter how small. But folks will punish their fellow prize-winners (winning nothing, instead) if the one in control of proportioning the pay-off doesn't proportion fairly. On this you wrote ...

That's why, even if it is explained to a person that it is a soulless computer divvying up a cash windfall, many people will still try to punish the computer for splitting up a payout so that the computer gets 99% of the payout and the human gets 1%.  Against a human operator, the threat of such retaliation drives the payout to levels approaching 50/50.
I find the first part hard to believe. Would you (or anyone?) please marshal some research showing that folks have held grudges against computers? And against humans, the majority settle for 20-40%, something which approaches 50% like you said it did.

This also explains the irrational behavior of people choosing to vote, even though the odds of their one vote being the decisive one can be millions to one against.  I personally engage in this irrational-seeming behavior, knowing full well how futile this behavior is.  I guess the psychic rewards for protesting bad politicians, however futile the actual results, can be a reward that outweighs the costs of researching politicians and taking the time to go to the polls.
I do this, too. I voted for Badnarik (Libertarian Party) in '04. I was one of 1000 Minnesota voters to do so. You call this irrational. I don't. Imagine if everyone did it.

Here's an analogy using a hypothetical Gallup poll about Americans. Let's say that 100,000 folks were polled and that the question was:

Is it true that most folks in the US wouldn't even lift a finger to answer a poll?

The response? 90% of those surveyed (i.e., 90,000 people) said that most folks don't answer polls. Ironic? Yes. I guess it's reverse "group-think." Instead of a bunch of folks doing the thinking for one person, it's each person doing the thinking for all people (in the US).

This dynamic -- this kind of reverse group-think -- is what you engage in in the quote above. I'm not saying that it's factually wrong, I'm saying that it's an invalid way to think about the issue (as my hypothetical Gallup poll shows).

Irony alert:  Is posting comments on an Objectivist website for the edification of others we will never meet, knowing that these posts won't change our lives -- is this an act of altruism, and thus against the principles of Objectivism?
This question is a fallacy. I think that it's guilty of the Complex Question fallacy, but I know that it Begs the Question. The question-begging is in the middle where you say "knowing that these posts won't change our lives." The 2 things that you're assuming when you say that are: that (1) this posting doesn't help us grow as individuals, and that (2) helping like-minded others isn't going to help us later on in our lives (when they are in positions to benefit us).

I disagree with both assumptions. The first one is probably the most overlooked in ethics debates (that agents morally-grow, depending on their repeated choices). The second one deals with the notion of a harmony of interests among rational humans. Added to the Division of Labor, this harmony of trading partners shows us that when Peter gains enough, Paul is suddenly better off (not to mention Mary). Henry Hazlitt -- in Economics In One Lesson -- does a good job of showing how this is the way that things are and must be.

;-)


Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/25, 2:03pm)


Post 29

Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 4:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed -- interesting post.  Agreed with most of your comments.  Some thoughts:

But here's the rub, Jim. Men are a type of creature who'll often retaliate against those who aggress against OTHERS, too (not just against ourselves). When I was younger than I am now, I used to play a game with this girl at school. Call it the "What if ...?" game. She asked me once: "What if you caught a rapist raping your mother? Would you rape him back?

I told her that I'd kill him right there on the spot.


Retaliation against those who aggress against others can also be a rational, non-altruistic response, particularly if the other person is a blood relative like your mother, or a friend or ally who will either likely reward you for helping them, or punish you for not helping them.

The more interesting scenario is whether it is altruism of the kind frowned on by Objectivists to help a random stranger being attacked in a situation where you would have no expectation of reciprocity and incur significant costs in doing so.  For example, the tale of the Good Samaritan in the New Testament -- would a good Objectivist pass by the beaten and dying man on the roadside?  (My apologies if this topic has been thrashed endlessly in other threads, but I guess I'm allowed to ask newbie questions.)  

Take the Prisoner's Dilemma. Researchers predicted that folks will rat-out the other guy to minimize jail time. They don't. They hold-out for each other.

Do you have a link to statistics supporting this?  Why would District Attorneys apply this tactic if it doesn't work?  I was involved in an experiment in college testing a variant of this, and about half the people in our group selfishly maximized their monetary payout at the expense of the group payout (I was one of the selfish maximizers), and the other half cooperated, taking a smaller payout but conferring benefits on others.

Take the Ultimatum Game (explained above). Researchers say it would be "rational" to take any pay-off, no matter how small. But folks will punish their fellow prize-winners (winning nothing, instead) if the one in control of proportioning the pay-off doesn't proportion fairly. On this you wrote ...


That's why, even if it is explained to a person that it is a soulless computer divvying up a cash windfall, many people will still try to punish the computer for splitting up a payout so that the computer gets 99% of the payout and the human gets 1%.  Against a human operator, the threat of such retaliation drives the payout to levels approaching 50/50.
I find the first part hard to believe. Would you (or anyone?) please marshal some research showing that folks have held grudges against computers? And against humans, the majority settle for 20-40%, something which approaches 50% like you said it did.

Perhaps "punish the computer" was a poor choice of words -- IIRC, the study I read years ago didn't try to survey the participants' motivations for acting as they did.  I strongly suspect at least some people reacted emotionally to what they perceived as unfairness, rather than merely not being good at logically analyzing their choices.  In any event, many people in the study turned down the tiny payouts, even though the payouts were being determined by a machine that couldn't be retaliated against, when they would have taken the same payouts if it was framed differently, such as "You have the option of taking this $20, or turning it down", with no backstory about this being part of a pool of money being divvied up. 


This also explains the irrational behavior of people choosing to vote, even though the odds of their one vote being the decisive one can be millions to one against.  I personally engage in this irrational-seeming behavior, knowing full well how futile this behavior is.  I guess the psychic rewards for protesting bad politicians, however futile the actual results, can be a reward that outweighs the costs of researching politicians and taking the time to go to the polls.
I do this, too. I voted for Badnarik (Libertarian Party) in '04. I was one of 1000 Minnesota voters to do so. You call this irrational. I don't. Imagine if everyone did it.

Thanks for that quote pulled from "Catch-22".  You left out his retort -- "If everyone did it, I'd be a damn fool to act in any other way."  The point Joseph Heller made in that book is that if our individual choice doesn't affect how anyone else behaves, the rational thing to do is to maximize our own selfish benefit.  The point is that Badnarik wasn't going to be President, because the overwhelming majority of voters don't think the way you or I do, they prefer to wave flags on the Fourth of July and talk about how much they love freedom, then a few months later they vote for people who are intent on taking away our freedoms bit by bit.  Would it have given the elected politicians pause if 10,000 people in Minnesota had voted for Badnarik?  Sure.  Would those politicians have been nudged to implement less authoritarian policies, in attempt to pick up those voters next time around?  Sure.  Heck, if every single Iowan who cared about libertarian principles had shown up and voted for Ron Paul in their thinly attended caucuses, he would have won in a landslide (as an overly optimistic poster predicted on LewRockwell.com).  But that would require libertarians to act in what I think Objectivists might characterize as that dreaded altruism -- they would have to sacrifice their own personal interests to confer a much larger benefit on all like-minded people, but that benefit would only materialize if most of the libertarians act that way, not just one individual.  That's one reason why collectivists have had so much success in growing the originally minarchist federal government.  Reason magazine touched on this with their headline story a few months back something titled "Four Boneheaded Biases of Stupid Voters -- and Why You're One of Them."  An interesting H&R thread ensued, if you're willing to slog through the usual statist trolls who frequent those threads.
Irony alert:  Is posting comments on an Objectivist website for the edification of others we will never meet, knowing that these posts won't change our lives -- is this an act of altruism, and thus against the principles of Objectivism?
This question is a fallacy. I think that it's guilty of the Complex Question fallacy, but I know that it Begs the Question. The question-begging is in the middle where you say "knowing that these posts won't change our lives." The 2 things that you're assuming when you say that are: that (1) this posting doesn't help us grow as individuals, and that (2) helping like-minded others isn't going to help us later on in our lives (when they are in positions to benefit us).

Agreed.  I was trying to make a wry joke there, and left out the ;).  Thank you for pointing out the fallacy far more articulately than I could have.


Post 30

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 12:00amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
[deleted double-post]

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/28, 12:03am)


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 31

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 12:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim, thanks for the inquisitive response. You write:

Retaliation against those who aggress against others can also be a rational, non-altruistic response, particularly if the other person is a blood relative like your mother ...

In this part of what you said, I assume that you are appealing to what is called "kin selection" by researchers -- an idea promoted by Richard Dawkins in his book: The Selfish Gene. I disagree, but only on a technicality. I can understand the genetically-transferred preference for protecting one's offspring, because that would protect the survival of one's genes. But I don't see that operating in the reverse -- where one protects one's ancestors, most of whom no longer reproduce and even if they did, would not produce copies as genetically-close as one's own offsprings. You continue:

The more interesting scenario is whether it is altruism of the kind frowned on by Objectivists to help a random stranger being attacked in a situation where you would have no expectation of reciprocity and incur significant costs in doing so.
If I were a small girl, I might not risk physical harm in protecting a victim. But that's not the case. I am a big boy who would have little trouble handling most would-be or actual attackers. There's inherent relativity in that. For instance, you could -- in light of discovering that I'm physically powerful and skilled in combat -- you could simply "up the ante" and make the hypothetical attack out to be one from a whole gang of hoodlums. There, I must concede. There is a certain number of attackers (a single-digit number, no doubt) wherein I would not interject, but instead make haste to call "the authorities." The primary value that that action is aimed at is one of self-preservation, as it must be whenever there is the potential danger of one ceasing to exist.

Perhaps you'll relax the bar a little to find that point where I would wrestle with the notion of saving another while risking my life -- in order to get to the dilemma part of "moral dilemma." The borderline case, so to speak. But actually, I've already answered sufficiently. At root, my own preservation is my highest value. I don't live to fight for justice, but fight for it in order to live. In that there is a rubric to guide my actions: protect innocents when risk is low (because there's so much potential value in that); get somebody else (e.g. the police) to protect innocents when the risk is high. It's a human way of approaching the situation. As one great mind has conveyed to me: It's an Evolutionary Stable Strategy for mankind. I alluded to this earlier, in my mention of a genetically-passed sanctimony of human life.

Take the Prisoner's Dilemma. Researchers predicted that folks will rat-out the other guy to minimize jail time. They don't. They hold-out for each other.

Do you have a link to statistics supporting this?  Why would District Attorneys apply this tactic if it doesn't work?

I don't have the numbers but I remember reading about implications of the failed predictions of Prisoner's Dilemma. It might have been in the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy (edited by Robert Audi), or it might have come up when I had the pleasure of interacting with a prominent Game Theory enthusiast. I have a tremendous capacity for finding evidence, though, and would marshal that upon request (I can find answers to almost anything for which there is documented evidence to be found). You go on:

I strongly suspect at least some people reacted emotionally to what they perceived as unfairness, rather than merely not being good at logically analyzing their choices.  In any event, many people in the study turned down the tiny payouts, even though the payouts were being determined by a machine that couldn't be retaliated against ...

Very well, I will just take you at your word that there were many people who reacted in this manner. The next step is to explain their behavior. When you say folks reacted emotionally to perceived unfairness, you describe folks who entertain a false premise: i.e., that a computer is being a personal bully. It's that wrong premise which they countenance, which allows for their irrational behavior. It's their failure to use their minds for the purpose for which it is naturally "intended": a failure to think straight, so to speak. Now, we can further explain the impetus for their failure (to use a tool for which it is naturally "designed") by appealing to their built character. In retrospect then, it will be the "spoiled babies" or the "hypersensitive" ones who respond to an inanimate object with strong emotion (rather than seeking to understand). You proceed:

The point Joseph Heller made in that book is that if our individual choice doesn't affect how anyone else behaves, the rational thing to do is to maximize our own selfish benefit.  The point is that Badnarik wasn't going to be President, because the overwhelming majority of voters don't think the way you or I do, they prefer to wave flags on the Fourth of July and talk about how much they love freedom, then a few months later they vote for people who are intent on taking away our freedoms bit by bit. 

Would it have given the elected politicians pause if 10,000 people in Minnesota had voted for Badnarik?  Sure.  Would those politicians have been nudged to implement less authoritarian policies, in attempt to pick up those voters next time around?  Sure. But that would require libertarians to act in what I think Objectivists might characterize as that dreaded altruism -- they would have to sacrifice their own personal interests to confer a much larger benefit on all like-minded people, but that benefit would only materialize if most of the libertarians act that way, not just one individual. 

This issue is more subtle than you make it out to be. There is a moral calculus involved in human action that not only has several layers (one layer of which pertains to earning your own self respect) that is on the scope of a whole human lifetime. It is for this reason that Mortimer Adler stated that you can't say you were happy until your life is at it's end (because, according to him, human happiness is a call-tag for a whole life, well-lived). Keeping this expansion of consequences for each of our acts in mind, I do not regret voting the way that I did in 2004. Contrarily, I feel good about it (and history has proven me to have been philosophically correct at the time -- as bad for individualism as Bush II has been).

There's a pay-off for being a trailblazer, even though you are the one having to clear away all the foliage for those that follow.

;-)

Ed


Post 32

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 4:20amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mortimer Adler stated that you can't say you were happy until your life is at it's end (because, according to him, human happiness is a call-tag for a whole life, well-lived).

But - each life, at the point of  giving inquiry, is, at that point, at an end [ye might keel over in the next moment], so one could have happiness and keep extending that happiness forward......


Post 33

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Since a computer cannot even collect or use money, I can't fathom how someone would see it as even getting anything.

Post 34

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rev', that's a pretty good point. For more precision, here's the late M. Adler (interpreting Aristotle) on the issue ...

Retelling this story of the meeting between Croesus and Solon, Aristotle stresses the point that a life must be completed -- finished -- before we can truly judge whether or not it has been a happy one. "But must no one be called happy while he still lives?" Aristotle asks. Must we, in Solon's words, "see the end"?

Not quite: for, as Aristotle makes plain, it is possible for an old man to look back at his life, almost completed, and say that it has been good. This may seem strange to you at first, but when you think about it for a moment you will see that it really is not.

One example will make this clear to you. You go to a football game. At the end of the first half, you meet a friend of yours in the aisle. He says to you, "Good game, isn't it?'' If it has been well-played so far, your natural response would be to say, "Yes." But if you stop to think for a moment, you will realize that all you are in a position to say, at the end of the half, is that it is becoming a good game. Only if it is well played all through the second half, can you say, when it is all over, that it was a good game.

Well, life is like that. Not until it is really over can you say, "It was a good life" -- that is, if it has been well lived. Toward the middle, or before, all you can say is that it is becoming a good life. Here is Aristotle's way of making this point: "Certainly the future is obscure to us, while happiness, we claim, is an end and something in every way final…If so, we shall call happy those among living men in whom these conditions are, and are to be fulfilled."
From:
http://radicalacademy.com/adleraristotleethics1.htm

So I will say that I'm living happily (something action-rooted; not feeling-rooted), which really means that I'm on my way to leading a happy human life. Now, some of the necessary ingredients for a happy human life are friendship and self-esteem. They're deal-breakers, so to speak. No genuine human could be genuinely happy without them. Adler says that there are around a dozen necessary ingredients required in one's life -- for a given human being to become happy.

Ed


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 35

Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, good replies to my prior post.  Re this:

I disagree, but only on a technicality. I can understand the genetically-transferred preference for protecting one's offspring, because that would protect the survival of one's genes. But I don't see that operating in the reverse -- where one protects one's ancestors, most of whom no longer reproduce and even if they did, would not produce copies as genetically-close as one's own offsprings.

I agree, but only on a technicality. ;)  Actually, the offspring of both your parents -- your full brothers and sisters -- have, on average, 50% of the chromosomes you inherited (we'll ignore, for the sake of simplicity, gene swapping between chromosomes, mutations, etc.)  Some siblings have more -- if you're identical twins, it could be 100% of the chromosomes.  It is possible, though unlikely, for a sibling to have 0% of the same chromosomes you have.

Your children have 50% of your chromosomes.

Your parents each have 50% of your chromosomes.

Thus, on average, you should theoretically be ambivalent between saving your child's life versus saving a fertile sibling's life.  In practice, of course, other things such as child bonding, and the much higher fertility of younger versus older people enter into the equation.

So, the technicality I mentioned is that one's parents are each as closely related to you as your children, but your parents are likely to be infertile due to their age and thus, in the Dawkinsian sense less deserving of your protection than your children.

In practice, of course, we (usually) have bonded intensely with our own offspring and thus for emotional reasons tend to value their preservation over that of anybody else.

As for your voting for Badnarik, I don't dispute you can and should feel good about that choice.  Other things besides the possibility of getting your candidate elected enter into casting your vote, which is why I'm planning on voting for Ron Paul despite knowing he has no chance of winning.  My main point is that so many people vote -- in primaries, no less -- for candidates they think, for example, are the fourth worse of five choices, because they think only the two worst candidates have a chance of getting elected.  Thus, they turn down many much better choices in the hopes of getting a bad but not completely awful candidate elected, even though if they were being rational they would realize their vote won't swing the election and thus they are free to vote their conscience and cast a vote for the best candidate on the ballot, or vote for no one at all if no one was worthy.

In short, the whole business of worrying about the horse race aspects of elections is based on a delusion about the value of one's vote for the purpose of getting someone elected (rather than the more aesthetic reasons you and I vote).

As for happiness -- you can only live in the present moment.  You can't live in the past or the future, though how you live each moment affects the choices available in each future moment.  Thus, you should strive to be as happy (or achieve maximum personal integrity, or ... many different ways to phrase this elusive concept) in the only moment you will ever have, the moment you have right now.  And ten seconds or ten days from now, apply the same process to THAT moment. 



Post 36

Monday, February 4, 2008 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim, that was a wonderful reply. All I can do is nod my head in affirmation and smile.

Thanks.

Ed


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


User ID Password or create a free account.