About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Monday, December 3, 2007 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think the concept of altruism has been too broadly defined. In my opinion, there are different forms of it that shouldn't be lumped together; some healthy and some unhealthy. I would suggest there are three basic types.

The first is dutiful altruism. This could be split into two categories; either coerced or pressured. Either the state or some organization makes you give, like taxes, or societal pressures persuade you to give even though you don't really want to. You feel obliged to neglect your own needs for others. This is the type of altruism that Ayn Rand most frequently discusses and I think she is correct that it is bad and possibly evil.

The second type is recipricol altruism. Basically quid pro quo, you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Boiled down, this is capitalism. An employeer hires and employee, the employer gets his back scratched from the work the employee does to benefit the employeer. The employeer scratches the employees back with a paycheck. While Ayn Rand would have never called this "recipricol altruism", I think she'd agree with the basic premise.

The final is selfish altruism. This is where I disagree with Ayn Rand. In essence, if someone is happy with what they have and decides they want (selfishly) to help someone else, I see no problem with this. I think it's actually healthy. I've done kind things for people before with no thought of getting anything in return like I'm sure we all have. It sounds cheesy, but it makes me feel good. I've given money to charity before, and it surely wasn't coerced. In addition, it's not something I told people about, so it wasn't to gain any social recognition or to alert everyone I've fulfilled my civic duty. I think it's something biological, humans naturally and selfishly want to help other humans if they can do so with out harming themselves. I think this is something that Ayn Rand overlooked, even though I agree with the majority of what she believes.


Post 1

Monday, December 3, 2007 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The final is selfish altruism. This is where I disagree with Ayn Rand. In essence, if someone is happy with what they have and decides they want (selfishly) to help someone else, I see no problem with this.
The only problem Rand would have, and it's a big problem, is smuggling in the concept of "altruism." 

One cannot be altruistic and selfish at the same time and in the same respect. It's a contradiction to assert this.

Instead of turning the concepts into a muddy mess, why not just make an argument as to why you disagree with  Rand's idea of selfishness VS altruism?


Post 2

Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Could you define the basic term, altruism, and state what the three sub-types have in common?

Post 3

Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What I'm basically saying is that we should be careful not to use deductive reasoning to oversimplify complicated subject matters. I guess a lot of it comes down to definition; namely what does altruism mean. I would define it as acting to benefit others over yourself. I guess it could also be a mental state of valuing others over yourself, but the three types of altruism I listed above were related to the former definition.

I don't disagree with Rand's general thesis relating to selfishness vrs altruism, I just feel it is too broadly defined. Not every altruistic acts should be viewed as subverting one's selfish interet. Selfishness is often the reason for altruism and should be viewed as such. To sum it up, we should seperate the different motives for altruistic acts before evaluating them.


Post 4

Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I don't disagree with Rand's general thesis relating to selfishness vrs altruism, I just feel it is too broadly defined. Not every altruistic acts should be viewed as subverting one's selfish interet.
Why is that?  If it isn't subverting your interest, then it isn't altruistic.  I don't understand why this is so hard for people to grasp.  If you're making some kind of gain from an action, how is it altruistic? 
There are no "gains" in altruism. Period.


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think Rand's way of making the point Teresa and Jeff have been making would be to say that you define "altruism" by inessentials, grouping different kinds of acts on the basis of some contingent, non-fundamental feature.  Red cars, red grapes and red shoelaces all have a feature in common, but this does not make them the same sort of thing in any interesting or important way.

In #3 you define it as "acting to benefit others over yourself," but this, as #4 points out, does not fit the examples you give.  To wit, your "reciprocal" and "selfish" varieties are not cases of putting others above yourself.  We carry out selfish acts (which can be reciprocal acts) for ourselves (Branden's "Benevolence Versus Altruiism" in VoS is the locus classicus of what Objectivism has to say about what you're calling "selfish altruism.")

What your three varieties have in common is that someone else benefits from the act in each case.  This is true, but isn't the most explanatorily powerful (i.e. essential) fact about them.  To judge an action and to decide whether or not to go through with it, other considerations are more important: does it fit into our purposes, is it the most efficient means to our end, does it cultivate good habits and so on are more important than whether or not someone else will gain (one reason being that this is typically out of our control).  In these respects what you call "dutiful altruism" is in the most important respects different from the other kinds, and to gather them under one general term is misleading.  Rand's term for this was "anti-concept."

(Edited by Peter Reidy on 12/04, 7:45pm)


Post 6

Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There are no "gains" in altruism. Period.


except for the 'other' person.....  is why is called 'otherism'.....


Post 7

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 3:20amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert,
I meant gains to the giver.  There's probably an argument as to whether or not there are objective gains to the receiver as well.

Peter, that was excellent, as usual.  Really well explained.


Post 8

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andrew,

I've been down this road in a number of similar posts in the past, so I may be able to help.  I think that the problem you're having is largely a matter of definition.  First, you define altruism as (more or less) placing another above yourself - others first.  Selfishness means placing yourself first.  Accordingly, there is no real compromise, and "selfish altruism" sounds like "utilitarian egoism."

I like what you say about the benefits you receive from helping other people.  I, too, feel good when I help others, donate time, and donate money to worthy causes.  You have to realize, however, that you are doing those things for your own benefit - you say so yourself.  This means that you are helping others for your benefit.  You see this as helping others at your expense - sacrificing.  In Objectivism, however, sacrifice is giving up something of greater value for something of lesser value.  By this definition your acts are probably not sacrifices since you are (hopefully) giving something of lesser value (i.e. an amount of money you can comfortable afford) for something of greater value (your positive feelings, etc.). 

You, like me, may come from a family or culture where you have experienced the benefit that comes through other people.  I agree that Rand did not focus very much on others, and how helping others (spending time with them, loving them, giving to them) benefits you.  You will find examples of it though, and she certainly did not advocate hedonism or narcissism.  Rand sought to clarify cultural confusion and semantic ambiguities.  The Objectivist meaning of  "selfishness" is a perfect example of this.  To many people it can mean either looking out for ones self, or more commonly looking out for one's self with disregard for others.  I have learned that that (non-narcissistic) Objectivists do not suggest disregard for others at any point.  The fact is that you do things (and should do things) for your own benefit.

Let me hit another point, and you might see what I'm talking about.  In post #3 you say altruism is "a mental state of valuing others over yourself."  That is exactly the problem we've been discussing.  Your values will determine your actions.  If this pattern of living were consistently followed, you would be miserable.  You would sacrifice your home to help others in need.  You would give all of your money to other people - because you value them more than you do yourself.  You would give your time and body as a slave - because making money for them is more important than making your own money.

When you give up something for another person, you cannot help but do it for selfish reasons.  Perhaps you think that you will be happier for it.  You think that you will receive some sort of reward.  Perhaps you seek to avoid some sort of punishment.  This is true in ALL cases.  Whether that giving is moral or not (sacrifice or not) should be a matter that you examine very closely.  That is, you should consider whether it will really, truly, and objectively make you happier. 

Immoral giving (Objectivist "sacrifice") is common because people tell themselves that they will be happier, when they really will not.  For example, you may give to an organization (religion, charity, etc.) because you think you are supposed to, and that bad things will happen if you don't, and good things will happen if you do.  In reality, you might be happier by rejecting that cultural norm and living above it.  Few people do so, once caught in the trap, because it is difficult.  It requires exploration into a new type of living and thinking, and may involve resisting influence from old friends and associates - possibly even breaking ties with them. 

I hope that helps.  Let me know if something still doesn't make sense - and I'm sure these guys will let me know if I missed something or represented something inaccurately.


Post 9

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Good post Jeff, I think for the most part we're all in agreement. It's just a matter of definition, and I felt that the distinction was important and perhaps not fleshed out appropriately in Rand's work.

Post 10

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There's an essay on this site by Ed Thompson called Reciprocal Altruism: Anti-Concept, here:
http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Thompson/Reciprocal_Altruism_Anti-Concept_.shtml

It's definitely worth taking a look at, even though I remember there being something I disagreed with... It's been a while.

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andrew,

There are 3 ways to potentially define altruism. The first is by focus on the giver, the second is by focus on the receiver, and the third is by focus on them both, combined.

With focus only on the giver, altruism has to be defined as self-sacrificing -- in order to effectively differentiate it from actions wherein the acting moral agent benefits from action taken (such as during free trade). Joe Rowlands has a pretty recent article on this focus and how it is superior than other focuses ...

See the 1st page of his article archive at:
http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Author_0.shtml

... but, in the interest of idea comprehensiveness, I'll address all of the possible ways to humanly define altruism.

With focus only on the receiver, altruism has to be defined as other-"serving" (and not merely other-"regarding") -- in order to effectively differentiate it from free trade (where both parties gain), and from actions wherein the receiving agent is harmed (such as during crime), and from ineffectual actions where the receiving agent remains unaffected (such as when the giving agent fails to positively benefit the receiving agent in any way whatsoever, in spite of the aim to do just that).

And it then follows that with the third way to think about altruism, with focus on both giver and receiver, altruism has to be defined as both self-sacrificial AND other-serving -- in order to effectively differentiate it from free trade as well as from crime (and also from those ineffectual attempts at affecting others, which I mentioned above).

I think that your notion of "dutiful altruism" already exhausts the concept of altruism, per se -- and that your other 2 notions of altruism are actually anti-concepts.

For instance, your second type of 'altruism' was "recipr[o]c[a]l altruism." Of which you admitted:

===============
"Boiled down, this is capitalism." [aka 'free trade']
===============

You went on to say that:

===============
"While Ayn Rand would have never called this "recipr[o]c[a]l altruism", I think she'd agree with the basic premise."
===============

Of course she'd agree with the basic premise of free trade. She was -- and might still be -- the world's foremost moral defender of it. But that fact that you noticed -- i.e., that "... Rand would have never called this 'recipr[o]c[a]l altruism'" -- is not unimportant. There's a good reason not to refer to free trade as any kind of altruism. Whether focus is on the giver, the receiver, or both of them at the same time

Your final notion was: "selfish altruism" -- which is akin to what Aristotle called magnanimity (I forget the Greek word that he used). It's when you have material and/or spiritual abundance, and you get a kick out of spreading it around to others. Maslow -- in his updated Hierarchy of human Needs -- ended up including some kind of sharing after all lower needs had been met.

But, as others in this thread have already suggested, there is a personal and psychological benefit to such benevolence. I get the "warm fuzzies" when I help someone whom I can afford to invest in. I have even gotten warm fuzzies just writing something that will "likely" benefit "some" third-party lurker who merely stumbles on to this site. It's a kind of a love of excellence, per se. I feel more fully and flourishingly human when I'm doing/creating something with a degree of excellence.

Did Michelangelo paint that chapel solely in order to personally gaze upward at his own work until he got a bad kink in his neck? I'll bet that, of those who witnessed that piece of art, that Michelangelo was one of those who viewed it the least often (i.e., one of those who visually benefited from it the least).

Yet his selfish work benefited others immensely. He had an "abundance" (artistic, talent) -- and he "shared" it with the world. In his shoes, I'd do the same thing -- because when in true abundance of something, I get a kick out of sharing it with others whom I value. That's magnanimity, not altruism.

For instance, from the receiver's perspective, these others -- with whom I'd be magnanimoniously[?] sharing -- may not even have a NEED for those things I share with them. Such is not the case with altruism.

And even from the giver's perspective, there needs to be an effective distinction between the concept of magnanimity (which is delineated to those givers harboring an abundance) and the concept of altruism (which is not thusly delineated).

I hope I've brought clarity rather than obfuscation to this point of yours. If affected, just let me know either way.

Key Terms:
Abundance, Altruism, Crime, Dutiful, Free Trade, Giver, Magnanimity, Other-regarding, Other-serving, Receiver, Reciprocal, Sacrifice, Selfish, Sharing, Warm-fuzzies

;-)

Ed

Post 12

Friday, December 14, 2007 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Other points of merit regarding Altruism
 
 
The online entry for altruism at m-w.com is (adapted) ...
 
===========
Etymology:
French altruisme, from autrui other people,
from Old French, oblique case form of autre other,
from Latin alter
Date: 1853

1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species
===========

The first point of note is that, whether focus is on definition #1 or definition #2, that Robert Malcom's discovered term "other-ism" is consonant or commensurate with "altruism." The second point of note is that definition #1 can be made more clear via a restatement ...

===========
unselfish (read: superceding) regard for -- or [unselfish] (read: superceding) devotion to -- the welfare of others
===========

In essence -- in altruism -- one's regard for (or devotion to) another, supercedes one's regard for (or devotion to) oneself. And definition #2 corroborates this point quite well. This superceding regard (or devotion) will show itself in the self-stultifying -- or at least self-hampering -- action of a moral agent. Any action taken by a moral agent which is not in any way beneficial to that moral agent -- is not objectively moral. When that kind of action is directed toward the benefit of another, then it's properly referred to as altruistic behavior.

But what about mere intentions (i.e., those which don't materialize into actions)? Can they be considered altruistic?

As Rand has noted, altruism is not synonymous with kindness, generosity, or good will -- 3 intentional things which don't require non-self-beneficial (or self-hampering) action in order to materialize; as "intentional" altruism does. As Joe Rowlands puts it: altruism is not so much about helping others -- at least not as much as it is about hampering yourself (via sacrificing your objectively higher values to objectively lower ones) by harboring a superceding regard for (or devotion to) others.

Ed


Post 13

Thursday, January 3, 2008 - 3:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
One of the glories of a decent society is that it is possible, therein, to help others without destroying one's self. It is possible to receive help from others without them destroying themselves in the giving, or destroying one's self in the receiving. It is even possible to be helpful without crowding other folks or being crowded by them.

Mutual help and courtesy makes for a cordial society in which one can live happily and not be at war (in a Hobbes-like fashion) with his neighbors.

I live in a retirement community and I am still in the pink of health. Some of my neighbors are quite old and decrepit. I do not consider it any problem to help my less able neighbors in through their door while holding it open or carrying some full shopping bags into their houses. If I live long enough, I may need that kind of assistance myself. I believe in the trader's karma. What goes around comes around. I give help now and I expect I will receive some later on.

Bob Kolker


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 14

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I don't disagree with Rand's general thesis relating to selfishness vrs altruism, I just feel it is too broadly defined. Not every altruistic acts should be viewed as subverting one's selfish interet.
Why is that?  If it isn't subverting your interest, then it isn't altruistic.  I don't understand why this is so hard for people to grasp.  If you're making some kind of gain from an action, how is it altruistic? 
There are no "gains" in altruism. Period.

 
Well, if you want to define "altruism" as "any act that from your POV harms your self-interest, however you or anyone else might define your self-interest, in the attempt to benefit another", then you've just defined away most of what people would consider altruism.

For example, taking care of one's offspring, if defined as being in your self-interest because it advances your chances of reproductive success, would not be altruism.  But what if that offspring had some medical condition that made it incapable of reproducing?  Is caring for that offspring then altruism?  But what if you get some warm, fuzzy feeling from caring for that offspring?  Ooops, not altruism any more.

Another example: You help someone else with no expectation or prospect of reciprocation from them.  You think this is a pure act of selflessness.  You do this repeatedly.  This makes you appear like someone who would make a good parent, greatly expanding the pool, and quality thereof, of marital prospects -- benefiting you.  Was this series of acts altruistic for a time, then collapsing into non-altruistic self-interest when your marital prospects improved, even though you didn't anticipate this outcome? 


Post 15

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim,

It's hard to talk about altruism. It's so close to so many folks' hearts. I read your post 14. No offense, but did you read my posts 11 and 12? Even if you have, I suggest that you check out Joe Rowland's essay on altruism. There's needed perspective there. Perspective that would make folks profit from the discussion.

No pun intended.

;-)


Ed


Post 16

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 12:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
[Edit: Yikes, now you can see my own cognitive processes.]


Ed Thompson gives a Mirrian-Webster definition of altruism in post 12.

Are there any other suites of definitions/usages that are useful to discussion? Are there usages of altruist/altruism that should be ruled out of order?

I ask because there is occasionaly a blowback from evolutionary psychology and associated fields. With a discussion of research into 'altruism in animals,' sometimes Randians will get up on hind legs and shout: "That's not altruism!!!"

-- there is the danger of defining away an argument by ruling out terms; in this sense, altruism can be a weasel word.

Does anyone here pay attention to research into 'the evolution of altruism,' or the attempt of cognitive scientists to place human altruism as a built-in virtue of the human species?
(Edited by William Scott Scherk on 1/21, 2:34pm)


Post 17

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed Thompson puts forth definitions (in this case from Merriam-Webster, I believe).

1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species


One impliess an attitude, the second a particular type of behaviour.

Do these two definitions do an adequate job of fencing in the field of discussion?

I say no, not at all. Without considering usage of the word across disciplines and populations, you can't quite understand the arguments of other fields.

Usage, cognates, the differences of scope in different mode of inquiry (i.e., evolutionary psychology, ethology, cognitive neuroscience, neurophilosophy, consciousness studies, etc) -- these are all necessary if you want a panoptic. You ask the question, "what is said about 'altruism'?" rather than "what did Rand say?"

Just consider what are held to be synonyms of altruism to get an idea of the background noise:

Kindly, charitable interest in others: beneficence, benevolence, benignancy, benignity, charitableness, charity, goodwill, grace, kindheartedness, kindliness, kindness, philanthropy.

(See the answers.com page on Altruism for a decent laundry list of conceptions of altruism)

I want to understand both the attitude (one that may be entirely inculcated) and the behaviour (if innate to the species, if wholly inculcated, if other).

I would agree that Alruism as a Duty Principle inculcated by religion and dominant culture is a deformation of a human impulse. But I also agree that altruism as behaviour has primate roots, and is in part a key to human success as a species on earth.

Our species has built-in suites of behaviour, I think. Some of this behaviour tends to favour the continuance of the species. Such behaviour is reinforced by evolution, if it benefits the aggregate that carries its variations.

I don't think anyone should rant about the Evul of Altruism until they understand the research into the behaviour.

In other words, do we inherit a propensity to do good to our fellow humans? Do we develop this propensity? What deformations and extensions of this innate propensity may occur in the world?

I wager that Ayn Rand if alive today would pore over the work of such as Robert Wright, Antonio Damasio, Steven Pinker, and the hundreds of other thinkers and researchers who work at the rockface of cognition and behaviour.


Post 18

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 3:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
William, you bring up good points.

My view on altruism's role in humankind's evolution, survival, and happiness is that the key thing is altruistic punishment (vigilante-behavior). It's what keeps folks "in line." It's most-strongly felt. You could call it "justified spite." Just think of the popularity of superhero comic books (where a good guy steps in and crushes a bad guy). It's part of our psyche.

As for chimps? Well, I'll let M. Tomasello answer that ...

What's in it for me? Self-regard precludes altruism and spite in chimpanzees.

 

The Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Department of Developmental and Comparative Psychology, Deutscher Platz 6, 04103 Leipzig, Germany. jensen@eva.mpg.de

 

Sensitivity to fairness may influence whether individuals choose to engage in acts that are mutually beneficial, selfish, altruistic, or spiteful. In a series of three experiments, chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) could pull a rope to access out-of-reach food while concomitantly pulling another piece of food further away. In the first study, they could make a choice that solely benefited themselves (selfishness), or both themselves and another chimpanzee (mutualism). In the next two experiments, they could choose between providing food solely for another chimpanzee (altruism), or for neither while preventing the other chimpanzee from receiving a benefit (spite). The main result across all studies was that chimpanzees made their choices based solely on personal gain, with no regard for the outcomes of a conspecific. These results raise questions about the origins of human cooperative behaviour.


Note: Tomasello recently waffled on these findings.

Ed


Post 19

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 10:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

Thanks for the link, and for your previous posts defining altruism. I think this tricky concept of what is altruism, and whether it is something good or incredibly evil, is at the heart of the difference between libertarianism and Objectivism. I have been struggling to reconcile Ayn Rand's view of it as a malignant cancer to be exorcised, versus the teachings of Jesus that it is what one should devote one's life to practicing.

Richard Dawkin's "The Selfish Gene" basically said that much of what is considered altruism by the layperson, when examined from the perspective of spreading one's genes, is in fact quite selfish behavior.

I've read most of Ayn Rand's work, but haven't systematically studied Objectivism -- I've been honing my philosophy of libertarianism instead in the last couple of years -- so I would ask for a certain forbearance if I accidentally stumble across some sensitive issues here in my newbyness. I was referred to this site by Ayn_Randian at Reason.com, and I'm basking in the civility and lack of statism here compared to Reason.

And, yes, any links you or others can provide to correct any ideas I hold that you feel to be false would be welcome. I'm educable. ;)

Jim

Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.