| | Doug,
I did reply to Shannon in the "Ayn Rand and Evolution" thread (on the Articles Discussion forum), but it took me some time to finish the post. It's up there now. I was unaware that he had been restricted to the Dissent forum. He can certainly reply to me there, if he wishes. And you may want to reply there as well. Or you can answer me on the original thread, if you want. I welcome yours and his response, as long as the latter is civil.
But, since you brought it up here, I'll address your specific point here for the benefit of other readers:
Shannon wrote, "Finally, it occurred to me that though we might have no evidence of a consciousness existing apart from a living biological organism, we also have no evidence of living biological organisms that do not have at least some degree of consciousness; all living organisms are aware of reality to some degree."
I replied, "I disagree with this – unless you are using 'awareness' so broadly as to include any form of sensitivity to the external environment, such as the movement of a plant’s leaves toward the sun. I would confine consciousness to animal life, but this disagreement isn't crucial to the issue at hand. If you were to agree with me, you could make the same point by saying that we have no evidence of consciousness existing apart from animal life."
Shannon wrote, "Consciousness appears not to exist without living biological organisms; living organisms appear not to exist without consciousness. [or Consciousness appears not to exist without animal life; animal life appears not to exist without consciousness.] One is not the “property” of the other. The most we can say is that they accompany each other; two realms that intersect."
I replied: "The capacity for pain appears not to exist in non-vertebrates, and vertebrates appear not to exist without the capacity for pain, but that doesn’t mean that vertebrates and the capacity for pain are two intersecting “realms." On the contrary, vertebrates can be said to possess the capacity to experience pain, which means that that capacity is one of their attributes or characteristics. Similarly, animals can be said to possess consciousness, which means that consciousness is one of their attributes or characteristics, but animals and consciousness are not two intersecting realms. In order for two things to intersect, each must be capable of existing independently of the other. For example, two circles can be said to intersect, but only because they are capable of existing as separate figures. But attributes do not "intersect" with entities. When a person dies, his physical body remains, but his consciousness goes out of existence. There is, however, no such thing as his body's going out of existence, while his consciousness remains. Whereas after he dies, his body is capable of existing without a consciousness, his consciousness is not capable of existing without a body. Not only do we have no evidence of the soul's surviving death; by the nature of consciousness, it's a sheer, logical impossibility."
- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 4/04, 10:39pm)
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