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Post 20

Friday, June 20, 2008 - 5:31amSanction this postReply
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Woops! Confession time: In the previous post I had confused Amartya Sen with Bangladeshi Nobel-laureate Muhammad Younus, the actual father of microcredit.

Sen's contribution to economics, otoh, seem problematic. From his Wikipedia entry:

"His capabilities approach focuses on positive freedom, a person's actual ability to be or do something, rather than on negative freedom approaches, which are common in economics and simply focuses on non-interference."

and:

"Sen is criticized as anti-market proponent by some economists, and as uncritical of globalization by others."

and, (on non-economic issues):

"Amartya Sen has been criticized for his writings outside of economics, especially for his views on the history of Islam and Jihad, by Fouad Ajami in The Washington Post."

Fouad Ajami is usually considered one of the better Arab writers, so his criticism of Sen in the article referred to, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR2006033001553_pf.html is not what one might suppose.

On the plus side, they quote Sen:

"No substantial famine has ever occurred in any independent and democratic country with a relatively free press."

So much for late night posting. Any post that requires this much cleanup the following morning should definitely have been better thought out!

-Bill

P.S. He still is the father of Nandana Sen, so the guy can't be all bad. -B.




(Edited by William A. Nevin III on 6/20, 5:33am)


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Post 21

Friday, June 20, 2008 - 6:54amSanction this postReply
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Methinks Nevin's confession (post 20) calls into question the Atlas points he received for post 17. Were the award-givers awarding Nevin for linking Amartya Sen with micro-loans or were they ga-ga over Nandana Sen?  :-)  Will more confessions ensue? :-)

Post 22

Friday, June 20, 2008 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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I confess, but I would have sanctioned his confession any way, so I will simply not sanction his confession, but ask people to do the adjustment mentally.

And Sen's daughter is still a wowwer! (I hope.)

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Post 23

Friday, June 20, 2008 - 4:49pmSanction this postReply
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Hi all,

It's been my experience that Objectivists often have trouble with hypotheticals, and this thread suggests no different. Calling the hypo irrelevant or answering it "outside the box" defeats the purpose of the hypo.

This hypo as I see it is trying to figure out who "needs" the money the most. I figure Sen cares about this because he assumes that giving the money to the most needy will be the best choice in making the world better off.

It doesn't matter whether Objectivists care to make the world a better place or whether Objectivists agree with the "needy" assumption. To quote Aristotle, "it is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

If it's the job scenario that bugs you, you could just as well change the hypo to ask: "who do you think would be best off if we gave him $10,000 a year? A poor guy, an unhappy guy who was once rich but is now poor, or a chronically sick guy who could be made well with the money? We don't know anything else about them. Pick one."

My answer: First, there's nothing necessarily wrong with being poor. I know lots of prosperous poor folk. Second, a chronic disease isn't necessarily that horrible...might just be allergies. Hell, I have several chronic diseases, and I'm doing okay.

We also don't know whether the poor guy or sick guy would be tremendously happier with the money. After all, money doesn't ring everybody's bell.

In contrast, the Riches-to-Rags guy is unhappy, and we know he would be made happy again with the money, so I'm going with that guy. I think it can be counter-intuitive to pick him since we're basically restoring a once-rich guy to his previously rich position without giving poor guy and sick guy a chance. Some might even say that my choice yield an aristocracy, a preference for keeping the rich folks rich. My response: Nah. I just want to make sad folks happy.

Jordan



Post 24

Friday, June 20, 2008 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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How about I give myself $10k/y instead?

Post 25

Friday, June 20, 2008 - 10:26pmSanction this postReply
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Awesome.



Post 26

Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,
Post 23 sanctioned.  There is a strange stigma upon hypotheticals.  It ought be a fun exercise and even, as I argued previously, enlightening.

You're now the second person to answer the question.

The score is:

Poor guy: 0
Unlucky guy: 1
Chronicly sick guy: 1

Although I like your reasoning for the unlucky guy, might you have answered differently if they chronic illness had been specific... and tragic?

Also, much appreciation, WCA, for the jaw-dropping pictures.


Post 27

Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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Bill D.,

How many Atlas points did you receive for your post 2?

Curious.

Ed


Post 28

Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, if you slide the cursor over the icons in the bar, a popup will tell you: 39; 5 more now from me.


Post 29

Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 9:07pmSanction this postReply
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MEM's answer works with IE. With Firefox right-click on the Atlas icon(s) and then select Properties.

Post 30

Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, you asked:
Bill D.,

How many Atlas points did you receive for your post 2?

Curious.
44.

- Bill



Post 31

Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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Thanks Mike, Merlin, and Bill.

Ed


Post 32

Monday, June 23, 2008 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, you're up to 47 points now with my sanction. The most moral choice (let them bid for it) is widely perceived as the most immoral choice by most of the populace in the U.S. (and even more in Europe).

If it wasn't possible to have them bid on it, due to government restrictions (minimum wage, etc.), the next criteria I would use would still be which would benefit me, the employer most -- is one of them more pleasant, less likely to whine about their personal problems, etc. Obviously, they can't possibly be exactly equal in all respects, so there must be some criteria I could use to distinguish which it would be in my selfish individual interest to hire.

As to those collectivists who say that I should try to meet the needs of these job applicants: what, are there no other employers out there? Are they positing that a semblance of a free market doesn't exist, and no possibilities for self-employment, so these job applicants must solely rely on me to satisfy their desires?

Post 33

Monday, June 23, 2008 - 11:42pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Jim. 48 actually. Your three Atlases entitled you to four sanction points, not three.

- Bill

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Post 34

Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 1:30amSanction this postReply
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I've been reading Rand's "The Virtue of Selfishness", and she commented on a similar situation better than I could (I've changed the number of people and the gender to match the particular situation discussed in this thread, and abbreviated a paragraph not entirely applicable to this situation, but otherwise these are Rand's words):

"The mere fact that three people desire the same job does not constitute proof that any of them is entitled to it or deserves it, and that their interests are damaged if they do not obtain it.

The applicants should know that if they desire a job, their goal is made possible only by the existence of a business concern able to provide employment ...

None of the applicants has the moral right to declare they don't want to consider all these things, they just want a job. They are not entitled to any desire or to any 'interest' without knowledge of what is required to make its fulfillment possible.

Whoever gets the job, has earned it (assuming that the employer's choice is rational). This benefit is due to their own merit -- not to the 'sacrifice' of the other persons who never had any vested right to that job. The failure to give to a person what had never belonged to them can hardly be described as 'sacrificing their interests.' "

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