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Monday, August 15, 2011 - 3:52amSanction this postReply
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This cropped up in a discussion that got sidetracked into talk about altruism. In my previous discussions with people on this topic, altruism was equated with benevolence and/or good will. This lady with whom I was discussing had studied anthropology and had come across the term. She equates it with reciprocity. She is what she had to say:

"I attribute altruism with inherent feeling of reciprocity with those around you, those who co-exist with you. I'm talking about social exchanges between human beings, and other species. Feeling you are part of something bigger than yourself"

Is this the so-called concept of "reciprocal altruism"

Post 1

Monday, August 15, 2011 - 4:37amSanction this postReply
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There are several meanings of altruism. See here. Reciprocal altruism is one, but nobody has a monopoly on what it means.

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Post 2

Monday, August 15, 2011 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Before I became really good at writing, I wrote something about reciprocal altruism here:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Thompson/Reciprocal_Altruism_Anti-Concept_.shtml

True altruism is when you lose so that another may gain. That is true to both the word origin (genetic correspondence) and the common use (operational correspondence) of the word.

The short answer is that there is no "authentic" altruism in the natural world -- though there is "reciprocal altruism" and something called "kin selection." Kin selection is funny because it's linked to passing on your genes indirectly (through other peoples' -- i.e., relatives' -- bodies). If you were a kin selector, then you would jump into dangerous waters and risk your life in order to save 2 siblings or 8 cousins. This is because siblings share about half of your DNA and cousins share about an eighth. I could be wrong on the math, but I'm correct in general. If you only had one sibling, risking your life wouldn't maximize the survival of your genes, but saving 2 siblings would.

The closest animals ever come to altruism is "meat sharing" in primates, but even that is best explained as an expedient, self-interested bribe -- in order to circumvent other chimps ganging up on you and taking all of the meat for themselves.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/15, 5:34pm)


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Monday, August 15, 2011 - 10:59pmSanction this postReply
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Take two random people: they will on average have 99.5% consistent DNA. 0.5% variation due to single nucleotide polymorphisms and copy number variation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_variation

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 - 7:55amSanction this postReply
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Altruism has nothing to do with paradigms based on forced association.

Altruism is only even possible among peers, acting as peers.

Otherwise, it is just forced servitude.

It is amazing how often the word 'altruism' comes up in the context of selling organizational paradigms based on forced association.

Amazing, and laughable.

We should love our neighbor; check. And, we should lovingly ask our neighbors, when doing so. Not tell them.

Altruism sold by an Obamanoid is a little like fire insurance sold by an arsonist; he's still not going to ask, when he burns your house down.










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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
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Altruism has nothing to do with paradigms based on forced association.
That seems to be what you mean by "altruism", but the way Ayn Rand used "altruism" seems to allow for forced association. For example:
A selfless man—or an altruistic nation that has been sacrificing itself on an international altar for over fifty years—will not hesitate to sacrifice others (Ayn Rand Letter, V1 #14).


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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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Merlin:

It's probably always been lockstepped-- emperor wannabees, marching behind a fascia of 'altruism.'

What they say they mean by altruism is not what they are after when they are selling altruism. What they say they mean by 'altruism' has nothing to do with forced association. What they are really after is all about forced association.

It's the sugar candy coating around 'do what I want, and don't make me have to ask.'

Back riders get tired of the need to ask, and eventually just go for it. But, they need to politely dress up their impoliteness, and they do so by plastering their fascia with 'altruism.'

You're not supposed to look behind the pleasant fascia and see the mob with its guns. In fact, it is selfish to do so.

And, unpatriotic. And, poor citizenship.

And, did I mention, anti-social?









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Post 7

Tuesday, August 16, 2011 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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The philosophy of altruism states that it is more moral to act in other people's interests than it is to act in your own interests. Regarding that point, Rand asked the question "Why?" -- to which there is no logical answer. There is no principle you can point to which simultaneously lifts someone else's interests above yours (when you act) while lifting your self interest above others (when they act).

It's contradictory. Like Fred said, the real reason folks appeal to altruism is because they are trying to control you by first making you morally confused. They aren't going to stop trying to control you (even if you ask), and they don't care to ask for your permission to do it in the first place.

What they want is to contribute to the darkness and confusion in the world in order to get some unearned benefit from the whole or partial slavery of others.

Ed


Post 8

Tuesday, August 16, 2011 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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Altruism in politics is you and yours being sacrificed to another whether you agree or not - a gun is put to your head by government.

Altruism in moral philosophy is about the purpose of life (being moral by helping others) and the standard of value (the needs of others) - you are supposed to put the gun to your own head.

Altruism in biology is silly. After all if you take choice (volition) out of the context you are hardly discussing politics or morality.

Richard Dawkins (and others) had the best explanations for why other animals sometimes appeared to be acting altruistically - evolution favors those genes which are the most active in creating the most phenotypes with those genes. For example, when a bird makes a certain kind of tweet indicating it has found food. Some people called that 'altruistic' because it attracted nearby birds who then ate food that the first bird could have 'selfishly' kept to himself. But as Dawkins pointed out, if you model this behavior mathematically you will see that given the frequency with which birds stay close to those with whom they are mated, or their offspring and siblings, then the benefit of hearing the tweet is most likely going to those nearby, i.e., to those with shared genes - the genes that are most likely to be passed on. Genes look out for themselves - that is, for a pattern possessed by other phenotypes, since that is what a gene is - a pattern. And they incidentally look after the body they are in since that body is their means for leveraging themselves into the next generation.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 8/16, 3:31pm)


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Post 9

Tuesday, August 16, 2011 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
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Snippets from Merlin's Wikipedia link:

An interesting example of altruism is found in the cellular slime moulds, such as Dictyostelium mucoroides. These protists live as individual amoebae until starved, at which point they aggregate and form a multicellular fruiting body in which some cells sacrifice themselves to promote the survival of other cells in the fruiting body.
This isn't an example of altruism, it's essentially a self-interest, life-boat scenario.

If a ship is going down, and there are a few life boats, but there not enough life boats for all passengers, then the passengers will "draw straws" (or engage in another game of chance) in order to obtain a seat on a life boat. In doing so, they aggregate and form a single crew in which some folks sacrifice themselves for the chance to be in the boat. The people, like the protista, never overtly sacrifice themselves -- but, instead, enter into a life-and-death gamble because there is no other hope for them.

It has come down to either a chance or no chance -- and folks will always choose to take a chance, if it is the only chance that they will get. This is because of self-interest, not altruism. It's funny when even the author of a Wikipedia link on the subject has it ass-backwards.

It goes to show you how much success immoral philosophers have had at duping the public and steering our culture the wrong way.

If their acts increase the average fitness of group members, altruism increase[s] so long as group members tend also to maintain or increase their inter-relatedness (in-group mating). Bands of such altruistic humans could then act together not only defensively, but aggressively, to gain resources from other groups.[14]
You know you are screwed up when you describe tribal warfare as altruistic. Actually, according to Rand, it's dead-on accurate!:

Promote altruism, and you are promoting a never-ending gang and tribal warfare of all against all. You are promote "mountains of corpses, and rivers of blood." It is, as she said, the morality of Death.

Ed


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Post 10

Tuesday, August 16, 2011 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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Good post, Ed.

It is also good to remember that altruism as a moral philosophy and therefore presumes, even requires choice. The person has to choose to make the sacrifice. So it really doesn't apply to slime molds or any other living creature not possessing the capacity to choose.

If we see some entity that is hardwired to 'sacrifice' itself, like a robot that lays down it's 'life' for a human, we are NOT seeing a real sacrifice by the robot, we are seeing the automatic, wired-in response to a program. If a person owned such a robot, and had it self-destruct to protect a complete stranger, that might be a sacrifice - if the owner didn't value a human life, even a strangers, above the replacement cost of the robot. But either way, the robot isn't making the decision. It is the object of the owner's sacrifice, not the one making the sacrifice.

And the multicellular fruiting body cells of that slime mold aren't weighing their self-interest versus helping the other cells. They are as hardwired as a robot. If x then z.

No choice point available then there is no sacrifice possible.

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Wednesday, August 17, 2011 - 5:31amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

In post 8, it sounded almost like you would believe in a "final causation" out in nature (nature that has a "will" of its own). But in post 10, you dispell all doubts about that. Good follow-up.

Ed


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Post 12

Wednesday, August 17, 2011 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

That is right-- when relationships are based on free association, peers living as peers in freedom -- our un-coerced choices are not 'sacrifices' no matter what those choices are. It is presumptuous to judge what others value most in any given situation, to classify their choices as 'sacrifices' (as in, of a greater value for a lesser value), because it presumes that we in our skins know what others in their skin value most, or should value most, or must value most.

An irony, to me, is, that much of the moral veneer that is layered onto the selling of the forced association paradigms isn't even possible under a paradigm of forced association.

'Love your neighbor' ... at the-point-of-a-gun.

Compassion...at the-point-of-a-gun.

Charity...at the-point-of-a-gun.

Benevolence...at the-point-of-a-gun.

The Obamaoids are the latest incarnation of these slick sellers of point-of-a-gun paradigms of forced association.


The point-of-a-gun advocates all sell the morality of the left side of those sentences as justification for the right side of those sentences, whereas the sentence in total makes the left sides totally impossible to realize.

No, the right side of those sentences results mostly in the same human reaction: a giant middle finger raised in response. aka, our present 'Great Society' economies...

So, why..by some, not few--fully half of modern politics -- are desperate to sell their barely masked 'at the point of a gun' tribal organizational models?

Because they are afraid. Because of irrational existential terror. They are afraid that those they think they depend on the most will freely say 'no', or fail to freely say 'yes' enough to satisfy their world view for them. And, they believe that fear empowers them to seek point of a gun solutions to what they want(one form of politics, the art of getting what you want from others.)

Example by extremes: Hitler. His childhood hunger drove him his entire life. He was driven to proactive/activist insanity by his painful existential terror, to seek the ultimate in 'point of a gun' solutions to addressing that existential terror. Wrapping such fear up as 'progressiveness' does not make it any more a rational justification for eating freedom.

Our constructivist attempts to institutionalize compassion, charity, benevolence, and loving our neighbor have succeeded, if not totally, in substantially wiping those out of public interaction.

The tribal war against the self has succeeded mainly in moving us towards a long toothed tribal beast, snarling at each other in constant anger and agitation, nearly fully divided. For all we can tell, this was a deliberate attack on freedom, and the juggernaut nation it was once building.

regards,
Fred

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Post 13

Wednesday, August 17, 2011 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

That was an excellent post!

But.... One quibble, if you please. You wrote, "...our un-coerced choices are not 'sacrifices' no matter what those choices are. It is presumptuous to judge what others value most in any given situation, to classify their choices as 'sacrifices' (as in, of a greater value for a lesser value), because it presumes that we in our skins know what others in their skin value most, or should value most, or must value most."

We, in our individual skins, may or may not have a good idea as to what others value most. But we do know that there is moral philosophy of Altruism and that it convinces some people to act against their objective self-interest - to put the gun to their own head, or at least, to put up very little resistance when someone else comes at them with a gun and a demand they sacrifice. The progressives see that and recognize how useful it is as they do their gun-work.
-------------

"'Love your neighbor' ... at the-point-of-a-gun.

Compassion...at the-point-of-a-gun.

Charity...at the-point-of-a-gun.

Benevolence...at the-point-of-a-gun.
...
The point-of-a-gun advocates all sell the morality of the left side of those sentences as justification for the right side of those sentences, whereas the sentence in total makes the left sides totally impossible to realize."


Well said!
(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 8/17, 11:18am)


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Wednesday, August 17, 2011 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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Steve:

"put a gun to your own head" ...

I like that characterization of the issue. That is exactly the way to characterize what they are trying to pull off with this political argument based on altruism.

Don't be cruel/unkind/anti-social/a bad citizen/morally bankrupt/selfish... by making it a requirement for anyone as a peer to even ask you, as a peer...just 'put the gun to your own head.' Sign up for the moral program; prepay your own ransome.

In fact, don't place a cruel requirement that humans interact as peers; that both leaves no room for some elitists, as well as places uncomfortable demands on those wishing to command their peers, those they claim they depend on as other than peers-- as de facto parents of fellow adults.

You see, in this paradigm, when elites divide the nation into adult adults and adult children, they do so under the assumption that it is the adult childrens' right to rule the adult adults...under the tyranny of the elites.

Inability/need is license; ability to provide is an indictment, and under that model, we create the boundary conditions for a massive race to the bottom, where the terminus is two unfortunates wearing rags in a hovel, arguing over whose sores are runnier to stake their claim to the not so maggoty piece of rotted meat...

But in the end, behind that characterization of altruism, the folks pushing it are using that argument to mask a model based on putting actual guns to actual heads other than your own. The 'put the gun to your own head' is transformed into 'don't complain when the real gun is put to your head, based on these arguments that you should willing put the gun to your own head.'

The choice is not yours or mine. The requirement to ask is not yours or mine. The gun is held by the elites making the poltical argument, "Willingly let us place this gun to your head."


regards,
Fred





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Saturday, August 27, 2011 - 12:09amSanction this postReply
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Libertarian economist Russell Roberts frequently makes the accusation that Rand's criticisms of altruism are attacks against a straw man. Roberts concludes as much because he says that altruism merely means "benefiting others" and that the idea entails no self-sacrifice

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Saturday, August 27, 2011 - 12:59amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

The short analysis of Russell Roberts' observation is that when he said Altruism is "Benefiting others" - he left off "at the expense of the self." Altruism couldn't be said to be only of those things that are free - like sunshine or the air. It must include things that were acquired at a cost and to make them over to the benefit of others entails a sacrifice - unless it is a voluntary transaction that is entered into in hopes of a profit. If that is the case, Mr. Roberts would be saying that altruism includes selfishness. Nonsense.
--------------------------

Here is a longer analysis:

Look at these three cases:
1.) I see someone struggling to get something done that I'm good at, and I stop and give them a hand - I only loose a few minutes and almost enjoy myself enough to say I came out ahead - but it gets chocked up to kindness - a small piece of altruism?
2.) Someone was raised in a strictly religious family and believes that a failure to make personal sacrifice to those who have less is a sin. He forces himself to sacrifice things that harm his life in order to help others.
3.) The government takes money away from one group of people, against their will, to give it to those that have less - a purposeful, explicit act of altruism at the point of the gun.

I think that Rand would have said that item #1 was not an example of altruism since it wasn't done out a sense of duty and there was no intended sacrifice.

I think that the last two items would be categorized as altruism because they are both based upon the concept that the well being of others come ahead of one's own well-being and that is why sacrifice ends up being a required component. Altruism is benefiting others as more important than benefiting ones self - benefiting yourself is selfish which to be moral is egoism.
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"There are two moral questions which altruism lumps together into one “package-deal”: (1) What are values? (2) Who should be the beneficiary of values? Altruism substitutes the second for the first; it evades the task of defining a code of moral values, thus leaving man, in fact, without moral guidance.

Altruism declares that any action taken for the benefit of others is good, and any action taken for one’s own benefit is evil. Thus the beneficiary of an action is the only criterion of moral value—and so long as that beneficiary is anybody other than oneself, anything goes."
Ayn Rand, The Virtue of Selfishness.

"If the sensation of eating a cake is a value, why is it an immoral indulgence in your stomach, but a moral goal for you to achieve in the stomach of others? Why is it immoral for you to desire, but moral for others to do so? Why is it immoral to produce a value and keep it, but moral to give it away? And if it is not moral for you to keep a value, why is it moral for others to accept it? If you are selfless and virtuous when you give it, are they not selfish and vicious when they take it? Does virtue consist of serving vice? Is the moral purpose of those who are good, self-immolation for the sake of those who are evil?" Ayn Rand, For the New Intellectual - Galt's Speech.
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Here are some points on Altruism from a Wikipedia article: "Altruism ( /ˈæltruːɪzəm/) is the renunciation of the self, and a concern for the welfare of others."
...
"Altruism can be distinguished from feelings of loyalty and duty. Altruism is a motivation to provide a value to a party who must be anyone but the self..."
...
"The term altruism may also refer to an ethical doctrine that claims that individuals are morally obliged to benefit others. Used in this sense, it is the opposite of egoism."
...
"Altruism (also called the ethic of altruism, moralistic altruism, and ethical altruism) is an ethical doctrine that holds that individuals have a moral obligation to help, serve, or benefit others, if necessary at the sacrifice of self interest. Auguste Comte's version of altruism calls for living for the sake of others. One who holds to either of these ethics is known as an "altruist."


From another Wikipedia article:
"The word 'altruism' (French, altruisme, from autrui: "other people", derived from Latin alter: "other") was coined by Auguste Comte, the French founder of positivism, in order to describe the ethical doctrine he supported. He believed that individuals had a moral obligation to renounce self-interest and live for others."
------

August Compte coined the term "Altruism". He created a philosophy he called Social Positivism - he was the founder of Positivism. Here is a quote of his that shows the view opposite of Rand's - "Social positivism only accepts duties, for all and towards all. Its constant social viewpoint cannot include any notion of rights, for such notion always rests on individuality. We are born under a load of obligations of every kind, to our predecessors, to our successors, to our contemporaries. These obligations then increase or accumulate, for it is some time before we can return any service. … Any human right is therefore as absurd as immoral."
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I doubt that anyone can find a political implementation of altruism that remained at all true to these core principles that didn't result in the government killing its own citizens in great numbers.

As to those Libertarians that want to believe that altruism can be benevolent and separate from sacrifice... my first thought is that they might be Christian... I'm sure that there are other reasons, but that is one that occurs to me.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 8/27, 1:21am)


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Saturday, August 27, 2011 - 4:58amSanction this postReply
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Libertarian economist Russell Roberts frequently makes the accusation that Rand's criticisms of altruism are attacks against a straw man. Roberts concludes as much because he says that altruism merely means "benefiting others" and that the idea entails no self-sacrifice
No, Rand did not attack a straw man. "A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position" (link). Rand did not misrepresent Auguste Comte's meaning of altruism, as Steve shows. Other people, e.g. Russell Roberts, may mean something different by altruism, but nobody holds a monopoly on its meaning. Rand did not attack Russell Roberts' meaning.

Post 18

Saturday, August 27, 2011 - 6:41amSanction this postReply
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thanks for pointing that out. I think Russell might be quite ignorant of the history and the origin of the term. So are people like Dawkins who refer to peaceful profit making activities as, 'reciprocal altruism'



Post 19

Saturday, August 27, 2011 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
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Interesting how much of this subject comes down to ARs 'primacy of consciousness'. That is, the idea that my thoughts-desires-consciousness are the "prime mover" of every thing - anyone who does not immediately conform to my will is just out-of-tune with "reality/truth".

So, altruistic people 'get-it' : all others simply need to be 'persuaded'.

Almost laughable, but also a bit frightening given the prevalence of this type of behavior.

Great discussion - thanks so much 'good neighbors'.


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