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Post 60

Thursday, January 26, 2012 - 2:22amSanction this postReply
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Humans act, animals re-act... that is the difference...

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Post 61

Thursday, January 26, 2012 - 3:17amSanction this postReply
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Humans also have the capacity to act in ways that are detrimental to their survival as we have no instincts. Our only means of survival is the use of our rational minds to discover and act upon reality or our willful act to evade reality and diminish our chances of survival.
Animals cannot act against their nature. Some might try to refute this by showing us how lemmings will go "suicidal" and run themselves en mass off of a cliff however it is just hard coded into their instncts to do so when faced with over population.

Post 62

Friday, January 27, 2012 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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Good points all around.

Ed


Post 63

Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 12:58amSanction this postReply
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hey Ed

what do you think of this article:

http://www.econ.uzh.ch/faculty/fehr/publications/ExplainingAltruisticBehaviorinHumans.pdf

Post 64

Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I'll attempt to read this over the weekend. The theme sounds good, though. It explains early altruism -- altruism before Auguste Comte -- by reference to strong reciprocity, which is an ESS (evolutionary stable strategy). There are 4 things that are referred to as "altruism."

1) kin selection
2) reciprocal altruism (or a tit-for-tat reciprocity)
3) faked (feigned) altruism -- e.g., [con man] "Here, dear old lady, let me help you across the street. Hey, is that your purse? Well, why don't you let me hang onto that for you, until we get to the other side?"
4) real (actual) altruism

Real altruism is destructive, so we should expect to never find it being a stable strategy for any animals -- or even early humans -- investigated. That leaves 3 explanations for the "altruism" that is to be found in the natural world.

Ed


Post 65

Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 10:17pmSanction this postReply
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Hi again Ed

you might find this also interesting:

http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/10/2331.long

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Post 66

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 1:46amSanction this postReply
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From Wikipedia: "In the 1930s J.B.S. Haldane had full grasp of the basic quantities and considerations that play a role in kin selection. He famously said that, 'I would lay down my life for two brothers or eight cousins'. Kin altruism is the term for altruistic behaviour whose evolution is supposed to have been driven by kin selection.

Haldane's remark alluded to the fact that if an individual loses its life to save two siblings, four nephews, or eight cousins, it is a 'fair deal' in evolutionary terms, as siblings are on average 50% identical by descent, nephews 25%, and cousins 12.5% (in a diploid population that is randomly mating and previously outbred). But Haldane also joked that he would truly die only to save more than a single identical twin of his or more than two full siblings."


Others have pointed out that humans must recognize another as kin of some sort before deciding to sacrifice, and this alone, makes the act conditional. If you hold that we make choices, form moral judgments, and do not possess innate ideas, then you must give up the belief that altruism is genetically hardwired in human behavior (for kin or for anyone).

There are a lot of studies that show a coorelation between degrees of genetic relatedness and degrees of sacrifices made. But I've never seen one where they were able to rule out cultural beliefs in altruism, much less individual choice - they just jump to the conclusion that it's in the genes!

Multi-level selection appears to be replacing the simpler group selection models. That is, the arguments were between those that argued in favor of the gene as the unit of selection versus the individual as the unit of selection, versus the family as the unit, versus the wider group, or even the species as the unit of selection.

From Wikipedia: "David Sloan Wilson, the developer of Multilevel Selection Theory (MLS) compares the many layers of competition and evolution to the 'Russian Matryoska Dolls' within one another. The lowest level is the genes, next come the cells, and then the organism level and finally the groups. The different levels function cohesively to maximize fitness, or reproductive success. After establishing these levels, MLS goes further by saying that selection for the group level, which is competition between groups, must outweigh the individual level, which is individuals competing within a group, for a group-beneficiating trait to spread. MLS theory focuses on the phenotype this way because it looks at the levels that selection directly acts upon."

Wilson is still not recognizing volition, for humans, as unique factor in the equation. But there is a part set aside for Memes (ideas) as selectors effecting individual fitness.

From Wikipedia: "Gene-culture coevolution is a modern hypothesis (applicable mostly to humans) that combines evolutionary biology and modern sociobiology to indicate group selection. It treats culture as a separate evolutionary system that acts in parallel to the usual genetic evolution to transform human traits. It is believed that this approach of combining genetic influence with cultural influence over several generations is not present in the other hypotheses such as reciprocal altruism and kin selection, making gene-culture evolution one of the strongest realistic hypotheses for group selection."

But this still leaves man the passive plaything yielding to some combination of genes and culture, and with no explanation of how the ideas in a culture could be formed or accepted without human choice.

If you look at the capacity to choose, and at ideas, as attributes in some kind of evolution, one of the first things you notice is how much faster and how much more flexible they are than genes and natural selection in genetic evolution.

Am I the only one that wonders how anyone can talk about Altruism and evolution without confronting the fact that, at least for most of us reading this, we choose our morality, rather than having it somehow magically express itself in our minds as genetcially encoded collection of ideas and arguments? And that as we read this, at least some of us are thinking and choosing what we will believe to be true or not regarding this topic - as opposed to be blind puppets of this or that cultural evolutionary force.

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Post 67

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
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Steve,
There are a lot of studies that show a coorelation between degrees of genetic relatedness and degrees of sacrifices made. But I've never seen one where they were able to rule out cultural beliefs in altruism, much less individual choice - they just jump to the conclusion that it's in the genes!
Great point.

Something similar happened in IQ research. If you look at twins studies, you can mistakenly conclude that IQ is mostly genetic. But as I have shown elsewhere, IQ is only about 42% genetic. The problem with knee-jerk conclusions from high correspondence occurs when folks prematurely ascribe weight to genetic factors. The most naive thing to do would be to look at data showing IQ scores of identical twins correlating at 0.86 and to conclude that IQ is 86% genetic. What you are doing there is saying that of all the reasons why there is correlation to be found among genetically-related people, all of them are genetic. This is wrong even if you merely say that of all of the reasons why there is correlation to be found among genetically related people, most of them are genetic.

In fact, going back to the more-proper reasoning from the available evidence -- showing IQ to be about 42% genetic (when you are more careful about how you interpret data) -- then you cannot conclude that the differences between people are 42%-caused by genetic differences. Indeed, as is shown here, it might be the case that 100% of the IQ differences found between people is environmental. Note how this can be true, even if IQ is 42% genetic (and it could be true, to illustrate the principle, even if IQ was 99% genetic). If you take identical twins at birth, and you expose one of them to lead, manganese, bottle-feeding, poverty, etc. -- then they would have IQs which diverge from one another so greatly that it would be much greater than would be predicted by even a random sampling of the population, even though they share all of their genes.

Indeed, they might be more than a couple standard deviations away from each other (representing almost all of the noted variance in the human population) -- even with identical genes.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/14, 8:06am)


Post 68

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 9:23amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

The .pdf file -- Explaining altruistic behavior in humans (2003) -- was too long for me to read "on screen." I cannot read more than about 2000 words on a computer screen before my concentration shuts down. On paper, I can read not just thousands of words, but thousands of pages of words. On a computer screen, I can't. In lieu of that limitation, I jumped to the good parts. The issue is two-fold:

1) whether judgmentally interrupting the flow of cooperation with others helps with fitness (i.e., whether it is an evolutionary stable strategy)
2) assuming (1) to be the case, then ascertaining by how much you show go about interrupting the flow of cooperation with another (i.e., should you not just "take your toys and leave", but should you also go ahead and punish them, even if it costs you some of your resources to do so?)?

So, the 2 questions are about "whether" and "how much." Item (1) is true to the point of actually being banal. Of course it matters whether you treat others with judgment or not! Imagine not treating others with judgment. Imagine how far that that would get you in the world. By this reductio ad absurdum, it can be established that (1) is true without any shadow of a doubt. But (2) is another matter. Even if it is true that you should judge others, the "extent" that you judge others -- by either withdrawal from them or possibly even personal violence against them -- is somewhat of an open question.

The authors make a good case that someone should step-up and put-down any rights-violators (any predators) in a group -- the so called issue of "strong reciprocity" (where "weak reciprocity" is a mere withdrawal of your resources). And that this enforced "justice" is a stable strategy, evolutionarily-speaking.

Ed


Post 69

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

The Oxford Journals link you provide in post 65 talks about evidence suggesting that women cooperate either more than, or better than, men do -- and that there are neurological correlates in the female brain that explain this gender-based difference. I won't deny that there are gender-based differences in the propensity for dealing with others in a variety of manners. For instance, men seem more prone to physically fight with one another over differences, while women seem more prone to linguistically fight with one another over differences. But these characteristic differences in how we deal with one another -- differences which play to gender-specific strengths -- don't get at the issue:

The issue is the moral issue of whether and how much we should cooperate with one another.

Let's say there's a predator in our midst. Let's say it's actually a male burglar who has broken into a home where a husband and wife live. So, they've got this intruder in the house and they are wondering whether and how much they should be cooperating with his demands and whatnot. Now, the husband might try to physically fight with the man, but that's because he is male and strong. The wife will probably not try to physically fight with the man. Instead, she will talk to him -- messing with his mind. She may, for instance, say:
Hey mister burglar man, if you want a lot of valuables, then you should be looking over there [she points] in that chest in the corner of the room. We keep all of our most valuable possessions in that chest, over in the corner of the room. Now, it's true that if you investigate that chest, that my husband will have ample time to grab a baseball bat from the closet and knock you out with it, but he wouldn't do that, mister burglar man, because you are such a strong and menacing presence. No, you can feel free to drop your guard while you are here in the house with us -- such as turning your back to us and investigating that chest over there in the corner of the room -- because we are incapacitatingly terrified of you, Mr. big burglar man.
In this hyperbolized version of the story, the cat-burglar falls for the woman's defensive use of language -- instead of the use of fists -- as a weapon. He turns his back on the couple and gets knocked out by the husband, who just so happens to lead his softball league in home-run hitting! The point though, is not that the wife -- because of being another gender -- acted differently toward the burglar than the husband would have acted. The point is that you shouldn't cooperate with burglars, and you should use whatever strengths you have -- gender-based or not -- to "anti-cooperate."

:-)

In the same way, the article at the Oxford Journals link fails to differentiate gender-based strengths from morality-based cooperation.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/14, 9:52am)


Post 70

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 1:50pmSanction this postReply
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The Oxford Journals link study findings are summed up in the following sentence:
The present study showed that the young adult females (n = 66) showed greater Cooperativeness as well as larger relative global and regional gray matter volumes (GMVs) than the matched males (n = 89), particularly in the social-brain regions including bilateral posterior inferior frontal and left anterior medial prefrontal cortices.
Recap:
So, we've got these 2 areas in our brains -- the posterior inferior frontal cortex (both sides) and the left anterior medial prefrontal cortex (but not the corresponding region on the right side of your brain) -- and it turns out that gals have more grey matter in those areas than guys do. And, wouldn't you know it, but gals are also more "cooperative." And, and this is the kicker, and their level of "cooperativeness" correlates to the level of grey matter found in these 2 brain regions. The researchers conclude:
Thus, the present findings demonstrated the 1st evidence of sex-linked neuroanatomical background of human altruism.
... but, I've just got to ask them one question:
What do you mean by "human altruism"?
And my guess is that these researchers would have a hard time anwering the question. They might start off by saying:
Oooh, altruism? Well, that's ... uh ... that's ... er ... that's ... "cooperativeness."
To which I'd respond:
Really? Is it any kind of cooperativeness, such as cooperating with cat-burglars or Islamofascist terrorists?
At which point I believe that the discussion would begin to break down.

Ed


Post 71

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Ed

here is another interesting link:

http://www.uzh.ch/hirnsubstanz/articles/2012/je-mehr-graue-hirnsubstanz-umso-altruistischer_en.html

it seems that for some altruism has come to mean, to pragmatists in science, good behavior
(Edited by Michael Philip on 7/14, 7:20pm)


Post 72

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 9:07pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You're right. Because these pragmatist-scientists operate within the encompassing horizon of social metaphysics, they unconsciously adopt social norms surrounding words such as altruism. For them it means "good behavior" for no other fact than that a lot of people think so. This principle, I think, deserves an acronym: ALOPTS, which stands for "a lot of people think so."

:-)

The reason I predicted above that the discussion would break down is because social scientists don't take the requisite care to define their terms well (or to see if their concepts integrate without contradiction).

Ed


Post 73

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 10:34pmSanction this postReply
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Speaking of that example that Russ Roberts gave about the ice cream, when Ayn Rand first came to Hollywood she was helped by a charity, a sort of group home for women. After achieving financial success she chose to give money to that institution so that others could be helped as well. I can only imagine the Stare of Death you'd get if you called that an altruistic act.

Post 74

Sunday, July 15, 2012 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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Michael,
After achieving financial success she chose to give money to that institution so that others could be helped as well. I can only imagine the Stare of Death you'd get if you called that an altruistic act.
The problem with calling actions altruistic is that it involves ascribing motivations to the actor. Because altruism is a moral code, real altruism isn't just behavior that just so happened to have been helpful to others (in retrospect, or whatever), instead, it's chosen behavior that was chosen precisely because it meets 2 qualifications:

1) it purportedly helps others
2) it doesn't help oneself

Now, here's the kicker:
Of these 2 qualifications, you -- as a moral actor who is attempting to perform an altruistic act -- you can really only ever be completely sure about one of them. You can't ever be completely sure that the precise action that you take is that very action that maximizes, or that even merely produces, benefit to the recipient of your actions. But what you can be sure of -- pretty much completely sure of -- is that it doesn't help you. So, in the real world, when we are trying to be altruistic creatures, there is one bedrock principle on which we can base our action in order to do our best to become certain that we are, indeed, practicing altruism -- and that principle is:

Self-sacrifice.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/15, 9:13am)


Post 75

Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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Ed

what do you think of this study:

http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/08/is-human-nature-fundamentally-selfish-or-altruistic/


it seems to me that there is a clear pattern emerging in such studies and it reflects on the people who tout them in two particular ways:

1) that they are more than happy to commit the naturalistic fallacy many times over even while accusing Rand of doing the same.

2) that they don't understand that when discussing ethics, selfishness and altruism are higher level concepts that require an epistemic chain of reasoning; a consciousness ability to think conceptually and it is in these terms that a philosophical analysis of such concepts cannot be compared to evolution because concepts cannot be passed by evolution.
(Edited by Michael Philip on 10/21, 6:13pm)

(Edited by Michael Philip on 10/21, 8:31pm)


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Post 76

Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You make a great point. Here are a few examples of faulty reasoning found in this piece:

Did selfishness — or sharing — drive human evolution?
This is a false dichotomy and presumes that someone who organizes their life around the principle of self-interest will simply not ever share with others.

humans could not have survived in nature without the charity and social reciprocity of a group.
This should read: charity or social reciprocity -- because either one alone would be sufficient to support human life in the wild. It is almost as if the author -- caught up in fuzzy thinking -- doesn't make a distinction between charity and trade.

novel Atlas Shrugged, whose protagonist champions the author’s notion that human nature is fundamentally selfish and that each man “exists for his own sake, and the achievement of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose.”
This is incorrect. The notion that human nature is fundamentally selfish is called psychological egoism and is not something that Rand championed. This author does not understand Objectivism. In irony, if psychological egoism were true then half of all that Rand wrote would become useless. It's because psychological egoism isn't true that Rand needed to attack the morality of altruism. Also, the last part (exists for his own sake ...) is normative, not descriptive. This author doesn't seem to understand this simple point.

 the pygmy tribesman, Cephu, in the Congo who lived by the Randian ideal that selfishness is the highest morality. [who used the group’s collective hunting efforts to benefit only himself]
This is almost laughable. We're supposed to believe that a savage brute analyzes competing moralities and differentiates them according to which one is the highest? In fact, I'll bet Cephu never even read a book -- let alone a book on the intellectual subject of morality. Also, what Cephu did was not in his long-term, wide-range, rational self-interest -- and the proof of that is his trial and punishment. Rand wrote at length about how you don't get ahead in life -- if you are a human being -- by being a lying, cheating thief. This author should become more familiar with Rand before writing about her.

every such group ever studied has been found to idealize altruism and punish selfishness, in everything from their mythologies to their mating practices.
But there is some contradicting evidence from Game Theory (e.g., Ultimatum game) that some tribes don't idealize altruism. In Ultimatum, you make an offer to a partner to split up a bounty and if your partner rejects your offer -- you both lose the bounty. Some tribesman are cutthroat in this game, instead of acting in a more just or equitable manner. Even if you share equally with them when it's your turn, they will not reciprocate.

Although Rand accepted that early human life was a collective effort, she failed to realize how this shaped our brains.
There's the naturalistic fallacy you mentioned. Just because our brains may have been shaped one way doesn't make it right. If everything that naturally exists is right and good, then rapists who follow their sexual urges would be moral -- because a sexual urge is a natural thing. Physical fighting would be moral, too -- because of the natural surge of adrenaline we experience when in conflict with others (physical fighting puts to use all of the freed energy released by adrenaline, and shunted to the muscles, which could otherwise be harmful to us).
 A good mate ... would have been altruistic in battle too

This is not always true. Good mates stick around to provide for their young, rather than sacrificing themselves for the good of the tribe. The best mate a woman could get would be a dude who could fight like hell but intentionally refrained from unduly putting himself into harm's way.

studies of 18-month-old toddlers show that they will almost always try to help an adult who is visibly struggling with a task, without being asked to do so
But this isn't necessarily altruistic. Altruism is about sacrifice, and there is no real sacrifice -- and a whole lot to gain -- from a toddler assisting an adult.

Another study found that 3- to 5-year-olds tend to give a greater share of a reward (stickers, in this case) to a partner who has done more work on a task — again, without being asked — even if it means they get to keep less for themselves.
Just more conflation of charity with trade, here.

 Worldwide, the aftermath of natural disasters are typically characterized by heroism and a sharing of resources ... The cases in which people stampede or look out only for themselves tend to be rare and involve very specific circumstances that mitigate against helpfulness.
People tend to "stampede" most in primitive, collectivist cultures (1) -- precisely contradicting the evidence previously presented in the article about 'noble savages' (what M. Shermer refers to as the Beautiful People myth).

to claim, as Rand does, that “altruistic morality” is a “disease” is to misrepresent reality.
Look who's talking about misrepresentation!

:-)

Ed


(1) In 1990, folks were walking to Mecca through a 600-yard tunnel. At one end of the tunnel, an accident happened and people from above fell onto people coming out of the tunnel. As onlookers stopped walking in order to get a grip on what just happened in front of them, others -- still in the tunnel -- pushed forward, eventually stampeding. In all, 1426 Muslim pilgrams were crushed to death (by other people ruthlessly stepping on them). You rarely if ever see anything like this occur in cultures which are more individualistic.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/21, 10:24pm)


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Post 77

Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 11:48pmSanction this postReply
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when one is stuck in the sacrificial Taking Syndrome worldview, is very hard to conceive a non-sacrificial Trader Syndrome worldview, as is tainted by that 'zero-sum' brute mindset lurking in the background...

Post 78

Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 12:57pmSanction this postReply
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Good post, Robert.

Sanctioned!

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Post 79

Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Let me pull the gloves off and make something more clear. Above I mentioned that the Healthland article conflated charity with trade. The obvious question is: Why? Why would someone do that? The most plausible answer is intentional obfuscation (dissemble) in order to slip an altruist-collectivist idea past your mind. Here's the thinking, distilled down to 2 syllogisms:

Charity and trade are the same.
Only altruists perform charity.
Therefore, only altruists engage in trade.

Capitalism is selfish (anti-altruistic).
If value is exchanged, but not by charity or trade, then it is exchanged by theft.
Therefore, capitalism is theft.

Bam! There you have it. The (primary) reason to conflate charity and trade is to be able to go on to equate capitalism with theft. A secondary reason to do this, however, is simply because you are stupid -- so you cannot say that the author(s) of the Healthland article are, say, evil; as they might just be stupid. As is most often the case, your evaluation of their character has to be postponed until you first estimate their intelligence**.

Ed

**A third method, not often performed, is to simply ask them what they meant by what they said.

:-)


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