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Post 20

Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 8:38amSanction this postReply
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Michael,
As long as the goverment is limited by law, what difference does it make?
The problem is they are NOT observing the law - they are violating key provisions of the constitution.
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In a constitutionally limited state, police surveillance begins with the cop on the beat and may well end up with spy cams, IR cams, UV, CAT and PET scans, or whatever else.
No, Michael, if they obey the constitution you do NOT get to "whatever".
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You know... in a perfectly Objectivist world, churches might meet in secret. The chain of logic is easy enough from irrational metaphysics to rights violations. Anyone who attends a church service is as much a potential threat to their neighbors as a drunk driver. In a perfectly Objectivist society, watching for other people's irrational metaphysics might be considered just another kind of lock or gate or security camera at your front door.
Your idea of "a perfectly Objectivist world" is wildly different than mine. And no 'chain of logic' I can put together would take me from irrational metaphysics to rights violations such that attending church would be a criminal threat.


Post 21

Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

I agree with Fred and Steve, but let me ask you what you believe animated the unanimous decision of all of the 1948 members of the United Nations, when they declared this:
Article 12. No one shall be subject to arbitrary interference with his privacy ... . Everyone has the right to protection of the law against such interference.
What do you think animated them to make such a universal declaration?

Ed

p.s., And keep a look-out for unjust laws, wherein an aggressor may say: "But I'm following the law!" as an illegitimate excuse for his bad behavior. Everyone stands a lot to lose if that kind of thing gets out of hand.

For instance, a law may state that there ought to be objective and transparent application unless it's really hard to do that -- in which case "someone, somewhere" is given carte blanche status to interpret the law personally and subjectively, and then to act on his personal interpretation. As an example, the Patriot Act had originally limited "wiretapping" to 1 degree of separation from overseas communications, but there is a new provision where NSA analysts can individually "tap" communications for the purpose of determining whether there are any connections overseas, or not -- out to at least 4 degrees of separation.

The argument runs like this:

1) No one is listening to your phone calls (because the original limit on the Patriot Act precludes that kind of a thing).
2) But "sometimes" it might not be totally clear to any given analyst whether you have contacts overseas, or not -- at least not totally clear whether you are connected through up to 4 degrees of separation from someone who has overseas contacts.
3) So, in "some" cases, someone will be listening to your phone calls (in order to determine up to 4 degrees of separation between you and someone here who may be communicating with someone else overseas).

???

What this means is that, if you know someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who is talking to someone overseas -- then ...

Wait a minute, that's not correct. Here is the way that the law is currently being interpreted:

What this means is that, if you (might) know someone who (possibly) knows someone who (possibly) knows someone who (possibly) knows someone who is (possibly) talking to someone overseas -- then someone might be listening to your phone calls. It is difficult to ascertain whether anyone living inside our borders is excluded from such a broad interpretation. Basically, just like I alluded to in posts above, anyone (and possibly anything) is fair game under the current interpretation. There is no possibility for any kind of accountability under such a broad interpretation of the law. As Rand said, tyrants don't make harsh laws, they make vague ones.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/29, 2:16pm)


Post 22

Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 7:30amSanction this postReply
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In the month after 9/11, I had a (Muslim) dealer in Bangladesh make a what then seemed a strange request. Instead of wire transferring his commission to his bank in Bangladesh, as was done on previous orders, he wanted it transferred instead to someone I didn't know in an apartment near NYCity. Pretty sure it was Brooklyn, I forget, but not the point. But it was out of the ordinary, and I and most of the entire nation were an elevated state of alert, of nervousness, especially around all things Muslim.

So I called a local office of the FBI. This was in Oct 2001. Gave them the details. They asked me exactly one question: "Is he due the commission?" I said, "Yes, it is his, we've dealt before, but payment usually goes to his bank in Dhaka. I don't know this person at this address in NY."

And their response was basically, "Then pay per his instructions."

My impression was, the FBI was monumentally not interested in the details. Hey, a several thousand dollar commission-- money spendable in the US -- is effectively transferred from a Muslim country into the US. And not a single question other than "Is he due the commission?"

I found that remarkable at the time. And now, in balance-- after news of the very specific failure in Boston to follow specific leads, they seem far less interested in pursuing individual incidents like this, and far more eager to ask for blanket wide surveillance tools and automated systems...

My thought at the time was, "If this is legit, then no harm." But I couldn't in good conscience simply carry out that transaction in the context of the times when it seemed so odd to me. Two months before, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But 9/11 really did change us all.

regards,
Fred




Post 23

Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 8:00amSanction this postReply
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... but let me ask you what you believe animated the unanimous decision of all of the 1948 members of the United Nations, when they declared this:
Article 12. No one shall be subject to arbitrary interference with his privacy ... . Everyone has the right to protection of the law against such interference.
What do you think animated them to make such a universal declaration?

Good intentions marred by a mixed-premise philosophy.  The entire article says:
Article 12.
•No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks
.

I will not go into the other so-called rights, such as to free elementary education.  But let us agree that the Declaration expresses the common ethos of humanity, what we all want for ourselves, and are willing to grant others. 

Note that the Article says "arbitrary interference".  What does "arbitrary" mean?  As noted, if you are planning to commit a crime, to harm someone or their property, then you cannot claim protection of privacy.  How do we know what you are planning? 

The Katz decision of the US Supreme Court was about your "reasonable expectation of privacy."  You do not have that when you are planning to harm others.  The NSA was looking for communications between terrorists. 

I understand the deeper issue:  Harry Binswanger is going to be arrested for "economic terrorism" because he is a gold hoarder.  He will be outraged. So many tnings become illegal as the government expands its powers.  But, again, in a democracy, we do this to ourselves, or to each other.  Mothers Against Drunk Driving are a perfect example.  Drunk driving is accepted as dangerous to other people.  So, we have check lanes. ... which turn up other crimes, such as drug trafficking. and people not wearing their seatbelts....  Steve wants to stop illegal immigrants, so we have checkpoints up to 100 miles from the border.  And those catch other criminals, as well. 

But none of that speaks against the basic duty of the government to protect the nation.

Fred's claim that a lawful subpoena violates your property rights is an example of the fallacy of the stolen premise.  The premise is that the subpoena is the lawful order of a court of competent jurisdiction.  You cannot ignore that on the grounds that it is inconvenient for you.

My problem was with the secret nature of the searches, that they are without warrant, without oath or affirmation of probable cause.  

I mean, it depends on what your theory of government is.  That we have three branches of government is not a natural law like the periodic table or something.  In John Locke's Second Treatise on Government, the three branches were Executive, Legislative, and Diplomatic.  (Diplomats were independent of the crown because of the nature of their work.  They could be recalled, of course.)  The courts were not a branch of the government.  The courts were an institution of the community as protection against the government.  The king's men had to go to a court of competent jurisdiction and get a warrant and a court officer would accompany them.

It is a nice practice, for a different time and place. 

Our courts are a branch of the government. The legislature empowered the executive office to carry out these searches.  If the acts were unconstitutional, then they could be challenged, as the New York Times did with the Pentagon Papers. Verizon would just refuse the order.  I mean, really, who is supposed to carry it out?  Is the CEO oir CIO supposed to go down to the servers and launch a VI prompt?

What if Verizon just let all those government cellphone expire without renewing their contracts?  Would the NSA employees then staff the switches, as when Truman threatened to have the Army run the steel mills? 

See, the questions that surround this have not been identified.


Post 24

Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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Michael,
Steve wants to stop illegal immigrants, so we have checkpoints up to 100 miles from the border.
You wrote that as if I advocate checkpoints up to 100 miles from the border. I don't. I am opposed to them because they violate the 4th amendment.
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Fred's claim that a lawful subpoena violates your property rights...
Which post is that claim in? I'm not seeing it.
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Verizon would just refuse the order.
Really? Under the threat of severe criminal penalty?

Post 25

Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

At the very least, we are having a conversation/discussion about this issue. Because of the secrecy, it was not formerly possible to have a conversation/discussion about this issue. So there is that. We are at least exploring, which is almost always good (if not always good, everywhere and all the time). A relevant quote from Mortimer Adler's The Great Ideas (393):
Cicero said, "Men can settle their differences either by fighting as the beasts do or by talking. And the human way to settle differences is by talking."

It is the very nature of government in the administration of justice for the sake of peace, by the exercise of a monopoly of authorized force, to settle all human differences by talking instead of by fighting.

You appealed:
But let us agree that the Declaration expresses the common ethos of humanity, what we all want for ourselves, and are willing to grant others. 
Thank you for answering about what it is that you think animated a universal declaration of rights back in 1948. I fear that you are right. I fear that maybe back then they were of the mind that you might be able to get away with willfully granting rights to others (which entails the powers to take back what you granted, later). I'm of a differing mindset about rights however, which should come as no surprise to you:

Right rights aren't rights to whatever it is that you want on earth (provided by others whether they like it or not), even if you are willing to give others whatever it is that they want on earth. This is an altruist ploy: Give flagrantly to others, so that you can later make demands on them. The proper foundation of rights is our metaphysical needs, not our often-fleeting, rarely-validated, subjective desires.

Rights aren't right because we want them, they are right for us because we need them. Because of the ideological infancy of the philosophy of rights, some of the people -- even some of the intellectuals -- walking the earth may still be in disagreement with this. But their divergence from the truth of the matter doesn't make the truth less true.

What does "arbitrary" mean?  As noted, if you are planning to commit a crime, to harm someone or their property, then you cannot claim protection of privacy.  How do we know what you are planning?
Good question. It seems we need an entry point, some kind of a tip-off that an individual actually really is up to no good -- with some measure of confirmable probability (e.g., 70%, 90%, 95%, 99%, 100%). After the defined entry point (the tip-off), then law enforcement would begin by taking some espionage-type steps required in order to uncover your otherwise-private plans. Before the defined entry point, there should be complete privacy -- like the kind outlined in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The Katz decision of the US Supreme Court was about your "reasonable expectation of privacy."
But that -- contrary to intuition -- integrates with an inalienable, individual right to privacy (as does the 9th Amendment of the US Constitution). That being so, it is a non sequitur as a talking-point regarding any feigned or alluded opposition to a "right to privacy." Just because the highest court declared that you can reasonable expect not to have your privacy violated, does not say whether it is the case -- based on the metaphysical needs of mankind -- that you have a right to privacy. It makes no judgment either way on that issue.

I understand the deeper issue:  Harry Binswanger is going to be arrested for "economic terrorism" because he is a gold hoarder.  He will be outraged. So many t[h]ings become illegal as the government expands its powers.  But, again, in a democracy, we do this to ourselves, or to each other.  Mothers Against Drunk Driving are a perfect example.
Well, what are you offering as a solution to this conundrum? My solution is m[I]narchy (a government of justice and law, rather than a government of men and zeal), which costs less that a trillion a year to implement, involves up to a 5% tax (or user fee) on wealth creation, and involves such a harsh existential limit on the expansion of powers (government never larger than 5% of the private sector) that it becomes essentially impossible for moochers and looters to effectively co-opt and misuse in service to their own irrational, immoral desires. Is that your solution, too, or do you have something else in mind?

In John Locke's Second Treatise on Government, the three branches were Executive, Legislative, and Diplomatic.  (Diplomats were independent of the crown because of the nature of their work.  They could be recalled, of course.)  The courts were not a branch of the government.  The courts were an institution of the community as protection against the government.  The king's men had to go to a court of competent jurisdiction and get a warrant and a court officer would accompany them.

It is a nice practice ...
Interesting example. Though I wonder how crucial this distinction is. Courts either provide a check and balance or not, whether we verbally say that they are government entities or not. If the government is a government of justice and law, it might not matter whether courts are part of the government or not. Let's pretend that a court got corrupted and became a court of men and zeal, rather than of justice and law. Let's say that a court dictated that everyone, everywhere is entitled to 3 square meals a day, regardless of circumstance or economic outcomes. Could they enforce this without the approval of the executive branch of the government?

No.

What if they were part of the government, would that change things?

No.

If m[I]narchy (government of justice and law) is adopted, it doesn't seem to matter whether you have identical checks and balances or not -- as there are more places to provide checks and balances under m[I]narchy (because implementation under m[I]narchy requires a buy-in from the citizenry which is normally bypassed in a welfare state).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/30, 11:00am)


Post 26

Monday, July 1, 2013 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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But Bush refrained from criticizing the current president.
"I don't think it does any good," he said. "It's a hard job. He's got plenty on his agenda. It's difficult. A former president doesn't need to make it any harder. Other presidents have taken different decisions; that's mine."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/01/politics/bush-interview/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


Post 27

Tuesday, July 2, 2013 - 3:33pmSanction this postReply
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Michael:

Fred's claim that a lawful subpoena violates your property rights...
Which post is that claim in? I'm not seeing it.

???

What I was whining about was the fact that the lawful subpoena is what is -missing- in the new blanket surveillance model; it may be in the law and be lawful, but a 'John Doe' written against --every US citizen's name here-- is not anykind of firewall; it is the absence of any firewall...even if 'lawful.'

regards,
Fred

Post 28

Tuesday, July 2, 2013 - 4:37pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

I read your posts... and agreed with them. Which just made it harder to understand what Michael was referring to.

A "John Doe" warrant is issued to cover a specific act that has already taken place, where probable cause exists that someone committed a crime during that specific act, but they yet don't have the specific person's name. It's an arrest warrant, not a search or seizure order - those require an understanding of who owns specific property (like Verizon). Obviously not the same thing as the 'authority' to troll through everyone and anyone's communications in case there are any crimes that might pop up.

As to 'lawful' - well, I guess that depends upon whether we want to call something lawful even if the law is not clear enough to be understood, not objective enough to apply, nor in accord with the constitution, etc.

We have arrived at a kind of historical cusp between freedom and tyranny in our country. Enough non-objective, unconstitutional laws have been passed to destroy the remains of our freedom - if they were ever rigorously enforced. But we are still coasting along under the inertia of a mostly free past. We are mostly free because they aren't enforcing all the laws that they could enforce.

One of the properties of this cusp is that contradiction between 'being free' in practice, and yet having this ever increasing, massive net of laws and regulations slowly tightening. Under the law, the administration can snatch anyone out of their living room and whisk them off, incommunicado, to Gitmo for indefinite imprisonment without any judicial decisions at all, or kill an American with a drone launched weapon as they walk down the street of some other country - without trial. Yet, I can still demand, and get, a public trial by jury for a speeding ticket and the government will have to meet all the rules of evidence and have probable cause to just see my driver's license.

Most of us go about our daily lives with extraordinary freedom compared to most of the world, and compared to most of recorded history. Yet, not long ago a SWAT team, weapons drawn, took down a small grocer for selling raw milk, and a couple was driven into bankruptcy because they couldn't keep up with the costs of appealing all the new permit requirements to rebuild their home from the original blueprints after it had burnt down

Another aspect of that is that the laws are getting vaguer, and the enforcement less consistent, and the very idea of a strict adherence to the law is already more history than fact. Our whole notion of law is changing, and as it changes societies notion of rights will also change. Our culture is moving from individuals with rights, to most of us have some rights, to some vague rights, to no rights.

Crisp, understandable, objective, uniformly applied laws are a necessary casualty in the march to implement Progressivism.

This is a dangerous period because we feel fairly free, and because most of the public is ignorant of the losses of rights, and because this political cusp lets entire statist structures and laws and practices be put into place in way that doesn't too badly disturb the average Joe as he goes about his business. It makes possible a rapid transition to overt, enforced tyranny at a certain point and in a way that doesn't have many hand-holds of the kind that would be needed to turn that around and go back towards liberty.

Post 29

Tuesday, July 2, 2013 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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Steve and Fred, while we all largely agree on the main points, I must insist on something more than a formulaic reply. 

1.  Does anyone have an obligation to obey an unjust law?
(See Antigone by Sophocles.)

2. If we as individuals decide whether the laws are just before we agree to obey them, is that not anarchy?

3.  If we must endure until the very last shred of freedom is lost, then are we not like the Aryan wives calling for the release of their Jewish husbands in 1943?? 
But we are still coasting along under the inertia of a mostly free past. We are mostly free because they aren't enforcing all the laws that they could enforce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenstrasse_protest

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/the-german-women-who-stood-up-to-the-nazis/2013/03/13/0/?print

http://nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu/content/german-wives-demand-release-their-jewish-husbands-rosenstrasse-protest-1943

Where do you draw the line?
I ask you: would you prefer that terrorists attack and kill people so that we can then excoriate the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc., for not protecting us, as in the wake of 9/11?

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 7/02, 5:28pm)


Post 30

Tuesday, July 2, 2013 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,
Does anyone have an obligation to obey an unjust law?
They have a legal obligation, by definition. And, they have a moral obligation to act in their best interests. When these are in conflict, then it requires a better understanding of the specific context to get a specific answer. To give you a more general answer, all one can say is:
  • People should seek to change bad law
  • People should understand and appreciate the value of a society where law is followed
  • People should never disobey a law without good reason because of the value of a lawful society
  • When laws are bad enough, they no longer represent the value of a lawful society, and need to be overthrown
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If we as individuals decide whether the laws are just before we agree to obey them, is that not anarchy?
No, that is not anarchy. Anarchy would require that their be no government attempting to enforce the laws that are not being obeyed. What you are describing implies a government and laws, and is a kind of rebellion. Another problem with your formulation is that we cannot decide this kind of thing EXCEPT as individuals.
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If we must endure until the very last shred of freedom is lost...
Who said we must? Not me. Who said that we shouldn't act to change bad laws? Not me. Are you creating false exclusive alternatives of obeying all laws all the time no matter how bad, or everyone reject every law they don't agree with all the time? That doesn't sound like anything tethered very tightly to reality.
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Where do you draw the line?
I ask you: would you prefer that terrorists attack and kill people so that we can then excoriate the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc., for not protecting us, as in the wake of 9/11?
This is another question that has to go into the "Stupid" and the "Insulting" categories of questions. No, I do not value excoriating these agencies so much that I'd willingly have people killed by terrorists so that I could do that. Are you saying that you will trade some of your rights in exchange for a hollow promise of marginally increased security? And then force that choice on all the rest of us? That is what is implied by taking the position that we should throw out probable cause and point government's gun at companies that have our phone and internet records.
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"Where do you draw the line?" That's simple. You ensure that the constitution represents our individual rights, enforces objective law, and then you make sure the government lives within those limits. Anything else and we are back to 'rethinking' the concepts of individual rights and/or limited government. My sense is that you have never found a very solid, lasting footing in these areas. When, in a previous post you referred to me as "over controlled" - my guess is that is relative to being under controlled, i.e., floating about with less than solidily-held principles connecting one to reality.

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Post 31

Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

1. Does anyone have an obligation to obey an unjust law?


In this instance...how would you or I or any of us fail to 'obey' a law that grants a blanket John Doe surveillance warrant over all of us?

By burying ourselves underground and being invisible? By employing effective encryption?

I think we could 'disobey' that law until we are blue in the face with no effect.


By 'disobey' did you mean 'fail to cheer for?'

You and I have no means at all to 'disobey' this law; because it isn't a restriction on any of us; it is a granting of power by the government to itself.


regards,
Fred


Post 32

Tuesday, July 16, 2013 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
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Obama to Bush 41: We are a ‘gentler nation’ because of you

(CNN) – It was a homecoming for former President George H.W. and former first lady Barbara Bush at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. on Monday where they joined President Barack Obama and his wife, Michelle, in presenting the Points of Light honor for extraordinary work in community service
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/07/15/obama-to-bush-41-we-are-a-gentler-nation-because-of-you/?hpt=hp_bn3



Post 33

Monday, July 22, 2013 - 8:46amSanction this postReply
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"A number of [larger] companies are getting paid for the information. If you go establish a tap on Google’s network, they will charge X amount per month. Usually the government pays it."
 
From a Slashdot.org article linked to this original story.  "What's in the Box? When the NSA Shows up at you Internet Company."
 
They came in and showed me papers. It was a court order from the FISC (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court) for the intercept, with the agent’s name… and the court’s information. I think it was three or four pages of text. They wouldn’t let met me copy them. They let me take notes in regards to technical aspects of what they wanted to do.

I can’t tell you all the details about it. I would love to tell you all the details, but I did get the gag order. I have probably told people too much. That was two years ago. If they want to come back and haunt me, fine.

These programs that violate the Bill of Rights can continue because people can’t go out and say, “This is my experience, this is what happened to me, and I don’t think it is right.”

 
 


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