RoR: Forum

I despise political correctness as an anti-intellectual form of cowardly coercion. My opposition to racism is has nothing to do with being politically correct.

Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or politcal significance to a man's genetic lineage - the notion that a man's intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.

Racism claims that the content of a man's mind (not his cognitive apparatus, but its content) is inheirted; that a man's convictions, values, and character are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control. This is the caveman's version of the doctrine of innate ideas - or of inherited knowledge - which has been throughtloy refuted by philosopy and science. Racism is a docring of, by and for brutes. It is a barnyard or stock-farm version of collectivism, appropriate to a mentality that differentiates between various breeds of animals, but not between animals and men. Like every form of determinism, racism invalidates the specific attribute which distinguishes man from all other living species: his rational faculty. Ayn Rand, "Racism," Virtue of Selfishness, 172; pb 126

Racist, homophobic, sexist stereotypes are just popular, frozen pieces of discrimination - the content. Racists use them to discriminate in hiring or evaluating. They are used in humor. They have greased the wheels of tyranny again and again. The make it easier to lynch people or march them into gas chambers or to just demean their existence in exchange for a laugh.

It doesn't matter what the race of the person that engages in racsim is. It doesn't matter what stereotype they use, or whether it is used to make a joke, a law, or an employment policy - it's racist. It doesn't matter if it was well intended or malicious. Because everytime someone engages in racism, it keep racism alive and well.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 4/29, 7:11pm)

Post 21

Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:42pm

Steve, I agree with Ayn Rand. I disagree with you.

Post 22

Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:49pm

While you're telling racist jokes that doesn't carry much weight.

Post 23

Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 9:02pm

So, Steve, what do you think of this:

Post 24

Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 9:16pm

Bob, do you need to have someone explain to you the difference between a Danish cartoon that speaks to religious/ideological issues and a racist joke?

Post 25

Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 9:43pm

Steve,

1) The joke is not racist, it is a parody of a news story.

2) Ethnic humor is funny because it is so often true.

3) Your statement that "stereotypes are just popular, frozen pieces of discrimination" is wrong. They can be but they needn't be.

4) In spite of your statement to the contrary, you are supporting not just political correctness but tribalism.

This is beginning to reek of a pissing contest, Steve, and I've better things to do with my time. You are on your own.

Post 26

Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 10:06pm

Bob,

1) Your joke about the black beauty contest is racist.

2) You said, "Ethnic humor is funny because it is so often true." We are talking about race - and when you say "..because it is so often true.," you are talking stereotypes again and you really believe they are true - that's sad. You should read the material by Rand that you say you agree with because you don't understand it yet.

3) The context of the discussion is race, Bob. In that context stereotypes are discrimination.

4) You said, "In spite of your statement to the contrary, you are supporting not just political correctness but tribalism." That is just nonsense and a cheap shot until you can offer some explanation or justification.

I stand by everything I've said. This isn't a pissing contest as you put it. It was just me politely pointing out that I found racial jokes distasteful. You could have been honest and gracious and acknowledged an error. You coulld have explained that you hadn't intended to engage in racial slurs. Instead you decided to make a smart-ass, mocking remark and then to try justify racial stereotyping. Then you finish off by denying what is clear to anyone who can read and attack me instead. I've taken no pleasure from this thread. I'm sorry to see it on an Objectivist forum.

Post 27

Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 10:16pm

There is only one race, the human race. You are supporting tribalism.

Post 28

Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 10:43pm

Bob, that doesn't even make sense. You are telling a joke about black women and you accuse me of tribalism. What a disgusting response.

Post 29

Monday, April 30, 2007 - 5:41am

Bob Palin's Post 15 in this thread resurrected some old, happy memories of my young childhood when I saw the "Frito Bandito" commercials on television as I sat in my mother's lap munching Frito-Lay Corn Chips.

You can find the song "Cielito Lindo" upon which Frito Bandito based his theme melody in MP3 format at

http://www.musicalspanish.com/Canciones.htm

Read the lyrics for Frito Bandito at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frito_Bandito

Download the song at

http://www.archive.org/details/FritoBandito

Remember:

The Frito Bandito
You must not offend.

On a positive note, his retirement led to the creation of another memorable character, W. C. Fritos:

Old Frito-Lay W.C. Fritos Cartoon Advertising Poster

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 4/30, 5:43am)

Post 30

Monday, April 30, 2007 - 3:29pm

Steve waited until post 26 to clarify that he has been talking about my post 0 and not my gallery post...so, I have a few further comments.

Both jokes were e-mailed to me by Objectivist friends. They both sent me the gallery post and one also sent the post 0 joke. They thought they were funny and passed them on to me. I thought they were funny and posted them here.

I thought about removing the "Black" from the "Miss Black America" line as it was superfluous to the joke. A "ho" can be any color and need not be black. But I decided to leave it because I was posting this under "insensitive jokes" and I did not write the joke but simply passed it on.

Steve may be right that I should make an apology. So I apologize to good "ho's" everywhere for associating them with an organization like the Miss Black America Pageant that perpetuates race as a basis for identity and self-worth. I'm sure that Steve is happy now.

Seriously, both "race" and "ethnicity" (which Ayn Rand called "a disguise for the word 'racism'") are anti-concepts. It can be a pleasure to celebrate one's cultural heritage and traditions and to research one's ancestors and cultural backgrounds. But one does not gain one's identity and any self-worth from sharing an ethnic heritage or by sharing genetic characteristics with others. And, most importantly, one gains no rights or loss of rights from sharing an ethnic or racial background with others.

For a long time, certain such "groups" were deprived of rights because of their race, sex, religion or sexuality. Most of those laws have been rightly abolished. But instead of simply recognizing those individuals' just rights, new laws have been created giving them extra rights. This is just as racist, only in reverse.

A group such as the Miss Black America Pageant may have made sense when it was founded and blacks were minimally represented in America's beauty pageants. But those days are long pass. Just as Jackie Robinson's entry into professional baseball led to the eventual end of a separate black baseball league, it's time for dinosaurs like the Miss Black America Pageant to fade into oblivion. But that's not likely to happen as "minority" groups today have extra rights in law and culture, irrespective of whether they are actually even minorities or not.

Yes, I enjoy ethnic jokes, racial jokes, blonde jokes (I married a beautiful and intelligent blonde who gave me a beautiful blonde daughter as well as a gorgeous brunette daughter,) Polish jokes (I tell them to my wife of Polish descent who has never taken offense,) French Jokes (I was brought up being told that I was French/French-Canadian but it never took; I've always thought of myself as American and I have never taken offense to terms like "canuck" or "frog",) lawyer jokes (one of my daughters is a lawyer,), etc. The only jokes I 've never enjoyed are dead baby jokes. But maybe I've just never heard a good one.

I don't feel any guilt, deserved or undeserved, for finding ethnic or racial humor funny. I thought the post 0 joke was funny because I like puns ("Idaho" is LOL punny.) I think I've covered in post 15 what I like in such humor and how stereotyping can be used for good or ill.

The reason I've called Steve a tribalist is because he is defending "race" as a valid concept instead of condemning it for the collective anti-concept it is. But I bare no ill will to Steve and will grant him a lap dance after all, albeit a somewhat different kind. :)

Post 31

Monday, April 30, 2007 - 4:43pm

Bob posted a parody on the Don Imus racial incident that was in the news (that Santa Claus cartoon) and he posted a joke about a beauty contest that used race. I didn't think much of either of them as humor.

I, personally, wouldn't have passed on a parody of the Imus thing unless the paradoy had Imus as the butt of the joke - in this case Imus was made into an innocent Santa Claus. But that wasn't so much a racist joke as just poor taste. The "ho, ho, ho" part would have been funny - but there it was juxtapositioned with the pictures of the Ruters players and it was a parady of Imus who, based on many past comments, is racist - as my mind put those connections together, the humor evaporated.

The black beauty contest joke was outright racist. It wasn't particularly cruel or mean-spirited, like some I've seen, but it did make the stereotypical association of black women and whores and that is clearly racist. I can't imagine why people seem to be unable to put themselves in the bewildering position of a young woman growing up with all the normal hopes and dreams and then, because of her color, being propositioned, offered money and learning that this is what a portion of the world thinks of her. Who would want to contribute to that kind of ugliness? Who would think that to be funny?

I agree with Bob that there should be no such thing as a black beauty contest, or Black Entertainment Television network, or affirmative action or any other form of identification by race.

The area where we disagree is on the use of racial stereotypes in humor. Bob believes they can be acceptable. Somehow, if there is a laugh involved, it is no longer about a collectivist anti-concept that demeans a group of people unfairly. How he makes this bewildering jump in context is beyond me. I believe racial humor keeps the concept of racism alive. I believe that there is no way to eliminate unfounded beliefs, like the belief that most Mexican's are thieves, while we give it a concrete existence with jokes or bandito cartoons.

If Bob wants to defend his position, that's fine. If he doesn't see how racial jokes keep racism alive, that's his problem not mine. But he is wrong to call me a tribalist when I'm trying to eliminate the use of racial terms. Period. If he wants, I can find the link to a post I made on another thread some time back where I explained that no one should ever use a racially defining term under any circumstance. Not in laws, not in philosophy, not in culture, not in humor.

Bob says I'm a tribalist because I'm defending "race" as a valid concept instead of condemning it for the collective anti-concept it is. That is a lie. Perhaps he needs to look again at my post #1 and Post #20.

Frankly, I'm disgusted with this entire thread. I feel like I've been wading in a cess pool. I point out a clearly racist joke, Bob openly states that he doesn't feel any guilt whatsoever for enjoying racial humor, his posts are sanctioned and I get called a tribalist.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 4/30, 4:48pm)

Post 32

Monday, April 30, 2007 - 6:00pm

Steve said:

I believe racial humor keeps the concept of racism alive.

And it will never, ever go away. As long as human beings belong to different "groups," which will probably be for ever and ever, there are going to be obvious differences between those groups.

Obvious differences usually don't go ignored. Ignoring differences is unnatural to human behavior.

Most individuals in all groups recognise the innocuous nature of superficial physical differences. Its not so much about the physical "race" differences that ethnic humor revolves around, but the cultural differences normally associated with a particular race.

Ever see Whoopie Goldberg do her "Valley Girl" impression? Hysterical. Is it "racist?"

Post 33

Monday, April 30, 2007 - 6:04pm

I sanctioned Post 30 just because of the "Lap Top Dance" image!

Post 34

Monday, April 30, 2007 - 6:53pm

Teresa,

Physical differences won't go away. But what needs to go away is the association of character traits with race. Most Mexicans are NOT thieves - that is a false difference. On you question about Whoopee Goldberg doing the Valley Girl impression, that has no racial conotations - Valley Girl mannerisms are adopted traits and her routine isn't pinning them to a race.

It is the association of a cultural or character trait with race that is unfair - it brands all of a given race with that trait even though they choose not to adopt it.

Racial humor that isn't particularly mean is a coward's way of making racist remarks and getting away with it.

If it is wrong to promote or hire or fire or demote because of race, and it if its wrong to pass laws that treat people differently by race and if an ethical system would be wrong to proclaim one race superior or inferior to another, then it is wrong to use it in humor as well.

Post 35

Monday, April 30, 2007 - 8:33pm

Y'all know - there IS a difference between laughing AT a joke, and laughing WITH a joke.......

Post 36

Monday, April 30, 2007 - 11:24pm

"To me, the very idea of a Miss Black America is racist. Ditto for the idea of Ebony magazine and such."

Racial doesn't necessarily mean racist. The fashions, styles and colors that blacks and whites look good in differ. If I wear reds or greens I look off color, but these colors are flattering on my black friends. Rand herself spoke of the different racial ideals of beauty. Should black people be forced to shop at the Gap just to avoid offending certain people's overly sensitive sensitivities?

Ted Keer

Post 37

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 12:07am

There are only a few areas where a reference to race is not racist. Clothing and make-up colors, medical issues with a genetic component, migration patterns - that kind of thing. Nothing to do with character traits - nothing to do with stereotypes.

Ted, what in the world does this comment contribute:

"Should black people be forced to shop at the Gap just to avoid offending certain people's overly sensitive sensitivities?"

Have you seen anyone proposing laws to force anyone to do anything? Has anyone said anything about being offended by clothing? Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute?

I've been very clear about the difference between racial and racist. Did you choose to ignore those posts?

The only overly sensitive sensitivities I've seen are on the part of people upset about having racist jokes called racist.

Post 38

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 3:58am

Physical differences won't go away. But what needs to go away is the association of character traits with race.

They aren't associated purely because of race. They're associated because of the cultures associated with the race, not the race itself. Race is innocuous. Science suggests it doesn't even exist! There is no "race" gene. There are no "species" of human beings.

Most Mexicans are NOT thieves - that is a false difference. On you question about Whoopee Goldberg doing the Valley Girl impression, that has no racial conotations - Valley Girl mannerisms are adopted traits and her routine isn't pinning them to a race.

The use of language in differing groups are learned traits within a culture, not within a "race." There is no "race." There are only human beings who adopt different cultures. "Ho" was adopted as a reference to women by one culture, and it wasn't a culture normally associated with caucasian people. I have no idea if the individuals who coined the term meant it as an insult, but plenty of gals of every color are taking it as one. "Dame, Broad, Chick, Bird, Sheila, etc." are less inflammatory, but represent the very same idea by different cultures: A Female. Why one group chose the reference "ho" over other, far more tame references is a mystery to me. I guess I'll have to ask the rap music moguls why.

Post 39

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 8:20am