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Post 40

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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Steve said: "Racial humor that isn't particularly mean is a coward's way of making racist remarks and getting away with it."

OK. Perhaps we shall look at some examples of ethnic humors. Is this comic cowardly racist or not? :-)

"The Swimmer"




Post 41

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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Hong, I don't see racial differences - I see religious differences.  Am I missing something?

Post 42

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Huh???

Post 43

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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Racism is the attribution of moral traits based on racial qualities or other unjustified value generalizations such as "members or race X are dumb, so since you are a member of race X you must be dumb" type assertions.  The recognition of racial differences in races in skin color, skull shape, body shape, disease resistance and drug sensitivity is not racism, just fact. 

Perhaps having a Black Miss America is racist.  That might be arguable, but since its private, who cares?  Whoever believes that having such a magazine as Ebony is racist (in so far as it addresses fashion, and not political matters from a tribalist perspective) is simply overreaching.  Well, Steve, obviously you're no black woman, or you'd have the sense to know that on average blacks have different shaped bodies and heads and different skin tones and hair issues from whites, etc.  The same clothes designed for your average flat-assed white guys at the Gap don't fit well on most meaty black behinds, and separate fashion magazines, cosmetic lines, and clothing stores exist because while you might not know it, black people do, and they shop accordingly.  This is the market recognition of physical fact.

I'd ask what your constant "you make me feel uncomfortable"-ing contributes to any of the discussions in which you resort to that line?

Ted Keer

(Edited by Ted Keer on 5/01, 12:33pm)


Post 44

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 2:55pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Please read what I write before you make critical replies to me.  You imply that I don't know the difference between racial qualities and racsim which tells me you didn't read post 20, 34 or 37.  Here is a sentence from post 34 that refers to an example of racsim:
It is the association of a cultural or character trait  with race that is unfair - it brands all of a given race with that trait even though they choose not to adopt it.

I said,
There are only a few areas where a reference to race is not racist.  Clothing and make-up colors, medical issues with a genetic component, migration patterns - that kind of thing.   [emphasis added]
That was my first sentence in post 37.  And look at what you say in reply,
Well, Steve, obviously you're no black woman, or you'd have the sense to know that on average blacks have different shaped bodies and heads and different skin tones and hair issues from whites, etc.  The same clothes designed for your average flat-assed white guys at the Gap don't fit well on most meaty black behinds, and separate fashion magazines, cosmetic lines, and clothing stores exist because while you might not know it, black people do, and they shop accordingly. 
I can't understand why you do this.  You make up something I did NOT say and proceed to refute it in condescending, rightious tones while failing to address the issue at hand. 

We are talking about a joke (see post post #0) that juxaposes "Ho" and black women and whether or not it is racist joke.  We are also discussing if it is ever proper to use a racial stereotype for the heart of a joke. 


Post 45

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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Okay Steve, yes, I literally meant FORCED to go to the Gap. It is you, yes YOU! who are ignoring the point that I wanted to make! It's not my fault that you accused me of having contributed nothing by suggesting this solution to the menace of black fashionist separatism! And are you denying that you are not a black woman? Really now!

Ted


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Post 46

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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 You use the word 'caucasian' in your last paragraph - if there are no physical racial characteristics, then what is that?
Damnit, Steve! Its called "7AM and we're out of freaking coffee!!" Helloooo! Its obvious! ;)

The term 'race' refers to populations distinguished by physical characteristics and/or by similarity in genetic make-up.
Which is basically useless. A "so what?" kind of thing.

'Race' isn't 'species' it is sub-species. 
I disagree.

But racists lump people together by genetically transmitted, visible, physical traits and if they are allowed to have things their way they will cause great harm.  History is full of horrific examples.
The history of this is long, but it didn't begin with simple physical traits. It began by observing cultures, which appeared to be of lower caliber than that of the observer's. Race was then associated with the observed culture. If the observed culture were equal to that of the observer's, there would be no such thing as Bob P's joke, and no such history. 

Its romantic to think all of the American Indian tribes got along, but they didn't.  Some had higher social structures than others, and I have no doubt jokes were made about one or the other.

 There are some things human beings probably won't return to. Such as believing that the sun revolves around the Earth.  Slavery and the idea of "human to a degree" is another.  Current technology won't let us go back there. It isn't possible to go back unless the technology is removed.

The claims that there is no such thing as 'race' are political correctness driving bad science.  It ignores genetics. 
No race gene. Gnome proved it. There is no "race" gene. No sub species in bipedal primates. Only "human beings."

But it doesn't matter.  If it was true that there are no genetic markers for race and it was just a social construct used by racists to identify their victims, it would still have the same evil effect.  And it would still work just fine for racists to identify victim groups and to make up jokes.

Say we got rid of everything having to do with racial hatred. Its gone. A thing of the past. Do you really think "hate" will be eliminated too? It won't be.  If its not a joke about race, it'll be a joke about some other idea.

Did you hear the one about the psychologist and the biologist?  Jokes are about ideas. They don't mean anything if they're simply about some isolated, disconnected physical trait. 

Fat jokes are about ideas. Ethnic jokes are about ideas. All jokes are about ideas.

So, forget all the bad science.  Pay attention to the psychology and the politics. 
I thought psychology was a science.  And politics? What about it? I have some jokes about it!

 Some groups of people are picked out because of physical characteristics, like skin color.  Then they are associated with a negative cultural or character trait.  And sometimes this is done in the form of a joke.

Look, I don't know if you're living in an incredibly insular environment or what, but there are some very funny things associated with cultures. There isn't anything particularly funny about physical traits removed from their cultural environment.

You say that the association isn't directly between race and a character trait - that it is a culture that is associated with a race.  But that is just racist sleight of hand trickery. 
Steve, please. You're just being way too white here. As if you're above making assumptions based on what you know, what you've experienced.  Come on.  As if while you're walking down the street, a bunch of gang bangers approaching wouldn't make you a little nervous? Get over yourself.

They take a character trait, wrap it in a cultural concept, then associate it with the race.  And if that is too direct, they cast the whole thing as a joke.
Right.  Who made up "ho?"  Must have been all those Mexicans. Maybe it was the Chinese. Who made up that word, homie? Who was trying to wrap up whom, and in what? Explain that, then square it with the above.  

If racsim is allowed to run rampant, it results in genocide or slavery. 
I know you believe this, but I don't.

 I don't believe it because there are just too many far better ideas out there, ideas developed over the past 100 years that squashed the bad ones for ever.
We won't be teaching the sun revolves around the Earth ever again.   




 


Post 47

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 6:54pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

Slavery exists today in parts of the world.  Genocide is an actively pursued goal in parts of the world today.  You are naive if you think racism isn't an active mechanism in today's world.

When you say that it is no use being down on racism because hatred will just come out in some other fashion you give it a free ride.

You're right that jokes are about ideas - and some ideas aren't funny because they fuel evil acts - like genocide, like hating people because of their color.

Rand's descriptions in post #20 are more eloquent in describing the evil of racism than I have been.  But I'm not going to argue with you anymore - we aren't getting anywhere. 


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Post 48

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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Is this joke racist?


Is this racist (or just cute?)


Is Eddie Murphy as Buckwheat racist?



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Post 49

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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Its romantic to think all of the American Indian tribes got along, but they didn't.  Some had higher social structures than others, and I have no doubt jokes were made about one or the other.

Indeed they did - some of the stuff Cherokees said of others couldn't be printed in polite society.....;-)


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Post 50

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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After thinking on the joke itself, (den Witz an sich) while showering:

(1) The joke stinks. It can only be considered racist if one assumes that it makes some sort of value judgment about blacks. The joke does require that it be set up in a culturally "black" setting, so that one will interpret I-da-ho in the appropriate - i.e., transgressive context. If the word black were not mentioned, and the Imus brouhaha were not current, most people would react to the joke with "huh?" So whether or not the joke is racist, it's clumsy.

(2) The appropriate response to the joke is: "it's not funny" - not "it's racist." One has to go to the extra assumption that either mentioning blacks to make a bad topical joke is racist (quite a stretch) or that the teller was intentionally hateful.

(3) A tendency to view everything in the worst possible way is bad enough. But hectoring others about their intentions, their inability to understand what the argument is really about, their irrationality, when one won't give anyone the benefit of the doubt oneself is even more annoying.

(4) I brought up the absurd idea of "forcing" people to go to the Gap as an absurd type of political correctness that one might resort to to placate the over-sensitive, meaning to point out the absurdity of placating the over-sensitive, not to argue that anyone here was advocating a law to give the Gap a monopoly on clothing sales.

(5) Rather than seeing the absurdity, Steve challenged me on what I meant by "force" and my intentions in posting.

(6) I responded too quickly with another absurdity - that Steve obviously has no fashion sense, and he changed the issue not to my answering his original challenge about "forcing" people to go to the Gap, but now to what? My calling Steve a racist? I'm not sure. I should have made that point by itself in a separate paragraph. I didn't, my response was easily open to the worst possible interpretation. I won't be a coward and delete it though - it can stand as an object lesson.

(7) I do know that racism is narrowly defined as making moral value judgments based on race - not broadly defined as bringing up race outside of the context of medicine or makeup or craniometrics. It is not racist in any normal sense of the word to say "I think black chicks are hot." If one can't use the term outside of a descriptive context, just about anything more than saying "I think black people are black" becomes open to charges of racism.

(8) This joke is not worth this effort.

Ted Keer

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Post 51

Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 3:45amSanction this postReply
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Slavery exists today in parts of the world.  Genocide is an actively pursued goal in parts of the world today.  You are naive if you think racism isn't an active mechanism in today's world.
I should have been clear that I was speaking of the enlightened West.  Enlightenment in the West is just too broad to be subsumed by the unenlightened world.  There's nothing positive enough coming out of the unenlightened world to be adopted by the West.  I'm pretty sure women in America would rather die than be veiled by law.

When you say that it is no use being down on racism because hatred will just come out in some other fashion you give it a free ride.
How's that? I happen to think people are smart enough to figure out what's evil and what's not.  I also stand by the old "sticks and stones" ideology.

You're right that jokes are about ideas - and some ideas aren't funny because they fuel evil acts - like genocide, like hating people because of their color.
People aren't that stupid. You may think they are, but I don't.  There are just too many competing ideas, read "principles," for me to think normal people will attack others over a silly joke. What people look up to, what they gain inspiration from, whether its their religion, or their politics, or their teachers, this is what will drive how they think.  "A culture can encourage or discourage an individual's ability to think," paraphrasing Rand.  (Our Cultural Value Depravation.)  Ethnic jokes do not discourage thinking. In fact, they probably encourage it.

There's too much light here in the West.  No joke can block it out.  Westerner's like the light too, as humans should.

Ted:

(8) This joke is not worth this effort.
I agree. Sorry, Bob. The joke was a "groaner" to me.



 


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Post 52

Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 5:58amSanction this postReply
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Somewhere lost in all this the recognition that humor, by its nature, is malicious - but it is what the maliciousness is directed to which defines the morality of it.....  which was why made the remark of there being a difference between laughing with a joke or at a joke......  further, as was shown in the 'All in the Family' show, humor is a two-edged sword - one's perspective makes all the difference in whether something is funny when being made fun of, or accepted as if were the truth and no humor seen [those who were like Archie in real life only saw him making straightforward statements, nothing funny, and indeed could not see the show as being a comedy]......

Post 53

Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 7:05amSanction this postReply
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Robert Malcom wrote:
[A]s was shown in the 'All in the Family' show, humor is a two-edged sword - one's perspective makes all the difference in whether something is funny when being made fun of, or accepted as if were the truth and no humor seen [those who were like Archie in real life only saw him making straightforward statements, nothing funny, and indeed could not see the show as being a comedy].
That might explain why someone in my family never liked that show.  He even resembles Carroll O'Connor, especially when the latter starred in the television series In the Heat of the Night.


Post 54

Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.  I too consider this joke on the edge - I still think it is racist, but just barely.  Most of the heat in this thread, at leat on my side, wasn't about this joke, but that no one seemed to care about any racial joke at all.

I'm sorry I come across to you as listed in your third point - I think you may be misreading my posts in some way to see what I'm saying in that harsh a light.  It isn't my intention.  But I suspect that my language has gotten stronger in recent weeks.  I've felt a growing sense of unreality on different threads.  People who want to engage in wars of liberation, people who believe it is okay to kill babies, anarchists.... These things conflict with the basics of Objectivism as I know it and have been disheartening for me.

On points 4 and 5 - I'll invite you to look at it from my perspective.  You were thinking that you put an emphasis on "force" but what I read was someone saying that I was mistaking racial characteristics for racism.  So that is what I replied to.  Given that three of my different posts had material that clearly showed I didn't need a lecture on those differences, my reply showed my irritation.

You said,
I do know that racism is narrowly defined as making moral value judgments based on race - not broadly defined as bringing up race outside of the context of medicine or makeup or craniometrics. It is not racist in any normal sense of the word to say "I think black chicks are hot." If one can't use the term outside of a descriptive context, just about anything more than saying "I think black people are black" becomes open to charges of racism.
I agree that racism is making or implying value judgements based upon race.  But sometimes the value judgment is delivered in a round-about fashion.  My point on this joke was that a cultural attribute, "Ho" was the negative term and because it is cultural and not racial it might not be seen as racial.  But, as you pointed out, the joke doesn't work without applying it to a racial context.  My personal approach to race issues is simple.  I don't ever mention race (outside of a discussion like this or one of the few other places it is needed - like medicine or fashion) and I believe if everyone else did the same racism could be eliminated.  It is a moral war and jokes are the last battle ground still being contested in the West.

I'm going to make a quick reply to Teresa and them I'm going to take a break from RoR.  I don't like the kind of contention that has been a part of my exchanges in recent weeks and I especially don't like the way this thread made me feel.  The RoR that I would be excited to participate in wouldn't have let the questionable taste of Bob's jokes, his Sambo references, his Buckwheats and his open advocacy of racial humor stand unchallenged.


Post 55

Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

Illegal slavery exists here in the states - see the Immigration thread.

You said,
There's nothing positive enough coming out of the unenlightened world to be adopted by the West. 
That isn't how things work.  The fastest growing sub-culture in the United States today is Islam.  It leaves me bewildered, but it is true.  The same capacity for reason is also a capacity for irrationality.  Some of the brightest, smartest people in our country are in the Universities teaching nonsense in the various social science courses.

But, I have no more heart for this argument.  I withdraw.


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Post 56

Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
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And surely this must be racist! :-)


Have a nice break, Steve!


Post 57

Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, for what its worth, I think you're a very sweet, thoughtful, and smart man.  I happen to like you very much, and hope you return soon.


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Post 58

Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 7:09pmSanction this postReply
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To me, the very idea of a Miss Black America is racist. Ditto for the idea of Ebony magazine and such.
Oh, come on! You can't be serious! There is nothing racist about a Miss Black America contest or about a magazine that caters predominantly to blacks. Nor do I think there is anything racist about a Miss White America contest, but that's essentially what we had for many, many years, until women of other races and ethnicities began to be included. But there is still a certain standard that seems to prevail.

The contestants are generally tall -- at least 5 feet 10 -- large framed and Caucasian. I don't find them to be as attractive as I used to. In fact, I often see women of other ethnicities that are prettier, and should be included, but if they were, they'd be unlikely to win, because they're not as tall or as statuesque as the other candidates, and because they don't have typically Caucasian features. There is a definite standard of beauty that dominates these contests. If you fit that standard, you have a chance of winning; otherwise, you don't. A Miss Black America beauty pageant circumvents this problem.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and people with different standards of beauty should have the opportunity to express them.

I am reminded of a story about English colonists meeting native Africans for the first time in the 19th Century. The African men thought the English women unspeakably ugly, and I can understand why. These women presumably had sharp noses, thin lips and rather angular features, whereas the African women had broader noses, fuller lips and softer, more rounded features. Imagine a beauty contest that included both English and African women that was judged by the African men. Would the English women have had a chance? Are you kidding?! They wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in the Sahara Desert! Did they deserve their own beauty pageant? You bet they did!

- Bill


Post 59

Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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That is why I, personally, prefer the Miss Universe or Miss World contests.....

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