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Post 100

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
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Ah Grammarian, I thought I recognized you? How do you feel about Islam?

Ethan

All warm and fuzzy.  I only lost a mere work acquaintance on 9-11 rather than a close friend or family member.

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Post 101

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 4:45pmSanction this postReply
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Gramps...errr Gram-

In post 63 I asked:
 Who/what designed this designer you are speaking of?...and that designer?...and that designer?...ad infinitum.

In post 89 Jason stated the argument as well when he said:


To illustrate this point I’ll play along with you.  If this is the grand "design" that you seem to think is so obviously evident that it requires that we accept the existence of "some" designer couldn't the same argument be made in reference to this unknown designer?  This designer, based upon its amazing intelligence, uniqueness, complexity and orderliness MUST itself be a "design" and would have to be the result of some unknown "super designer".   The same could be said of this even more amazing "super designer" it would have to be even more complex and intricate.  It would be such an amazing and unique entity that based upon your own line of argument it couldn't have simply occurred because of natural causes.  It also requires that we infer the existence of a "SUPER DUPER" designer.  Of course based upon your line of argument we would have to go on inferring designer after designer forever.   Interestingly enough -- we would still be back at the same point.  There would still be no ULTIMATE designer or any ULTIMATE conscious purpose "guiding" existence or any element of it.  

Unless I've missed something, you've yet to answer either of us.


Post 102

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 4:50pmSanction this postReply
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Gram-

Also considering most scientists achieved their greatest intellectual feats when they were around Jasons age, I think I'd cut it with the ad hominem attacks on his age.


Post 103

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 5:08pmSanction this postReply
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Gramps...errr Gram-

In post 63 I asked:

 
Who/what designed this designer you are speaking of?...and that designer?...and that designer?...ad infinitum.

Right.  I ignored it mainly because it's a stupid question, and (if you hadn't noticed) I was busy writing long, substantive, explanatory posts on other things.

It's a stupid question because you apparently seem perfectly comfortable when an infinite regress involves non-intelligent causes -- the motion of particle A is caused by particle B's smacking into it; the motion of B was caused by the motion of C; the motion of C was caused by D; D by E; etc. etc., ad infinitum, until, presumably, we arrive at Aristotle's "Prime Mover" (his idea of God), sitting outside the Primum Mobile, who, through an act if will causes the celestial spheres to start spinning (the spheres then impart their motion to concentric spheres nested inside them, which impart their motion to physical objects -- you're perfectly comfortable with THAT scenario; but when it comes to intelligent causes, you demand a different standard and methodology.  Material causes, by your lights, are allowed to deal contextually with their explanations, and its advocates are permitted to forget about ultimate causes.  Intelligent causes, for reasons known only to you, must "show their pedigree" to the very first cause, including the name and home address of the First Cause.  It's just bigotry on your part.  If it's ridiculous to demand it of material causes, it is equally ridiculous to demand it of intelligent ones.

To illustrate this point I’ll play along with you.  If this is the grand "design" that you seem to think is so obviously evident that it requires that we accept the existence of "some" designer couldn't the same argument be made in reference to this unknown designer?  This designer, based upon its amazing intelligence, uniqueness, complexity and orderliness MUST itself be a "design" and would have to be the result of some unknown "super designer".   The same could be said of this even more amazing "super designer" it would have to be even more complex and intricate.  It would be such an amazing and unique entity that based upon your own line of argument it couldn't have simply occurred because of natural causes.  It also requires that we infer the existence of a "SUPER DUPER" designer.  Of course based upon your line of argument we would have to go on inferring designer after designer forever.   Interestingly enough -- we would still be back at the same point.  There would still be no ULTIMATE designer or any ULTIMATE conscious purpose "guiding" existence or any element of it.  

Unless I've missed something, you've yet to answer either of us.

The answer is:  it puts design in exactly the same position as non-design.  Neither can explain (nor has to explain) an ultimate cause.


Post 104

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Andy Postema wrote:

If you think you "chopped the trunk" of Grammarian's argument down, that's only because of your unshakeable a priori belief that such a designer cannot exist.  I suspect this is because you are conflating the inference of a designer with a belief in God.  (Correct me if I'm wrong.)  If so, how is that different from the theist rejecting Darwinism because of his a priori beliefs?

Yep.  That's the gist of his argument.


Post 105

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
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Don't know Marcus, perhaps a thousand monkeys could type out Hamlet given enough time. How much time would it take?

First identify the probabilistic resources at our disposal.  The one-page, online version of  Hamlet has approximately 173,698 characters, including spaces.  The alphabet has 26 letters and a space; 27 characters in all (not counting punctuation marks).

The chances of a monkey randomly hitting any particular letter or space on a typewriter is 1/27.  The chances of hitting the next letter are 1/27.  So far, the chances of hitting just those two letters is 1/27 x 1/27, or 1/27^2.  The chances of hitting 173,698 characters is 1/27^173,698.

A "Z" and an "A" consecutively won't do it.  If we ignore the words "Act I", the play begins thus:

BERNARDO

Who's there?

FRANCISCO

Nay, answer me: stand, and unfold yourself.

It's not just any letters; it must be those specific ones.

Consider:

There are approx. 10^80 fundamental particles in the universe.
Planck time allows a particle to change its state at most 10^45 times per second.
The amount of presumed elapsed time since a presumed Big Bang is 10^25 seconds.

Since any physical event, anywhere in the universe, must have at least 1 fundamental particle to specify it -- to make it uniquely that event -- the total number of possible events since the Big Bang is:

10^80 x 10^45 x 10^25 = 10^150

(Add the exponents, for those gentle humanists).

The adds of specifying one unique event in the total number of possible events since the Big Bang is therefore 1/10^150.  If you claim to have specified an event whose odds are greater than 1/10^150, then it could not have been done through "blind search," "random walk" or any other non-purposive search method.  We can see immediately (without any base conversion) that 1/27^173,698 is smaller than 1/10^150.  

Hamlet could not have been written by any number of monkeys, typing away on any number of typewriters for any amount of time.

I guess we'll just have to return to this mystical idea of an "author/designer" of the play named Shakespeare. 

Robert,

Is this really your point? Get yourself a copy of the Blind Watchmaker by Dawkins.

Your example above is a fallacy often associated with Evolution, propagated by Creationists.

The monkey types randomly Z. The monkey dies. The monkey types A. Monkey lives.The monkey types P. The letter does not appear. The monkey types C. The monkey feels good. After a while you've got Act 1, Scene1.


An intelligent "author/designer" could possibly design a machine to pre-select which letters are acceptable (i.e., which ones survive) and which ones unacceptable.  That's exactly what programmers do when they design so-called "genetic algorithms" (GAs) purporting to demonstrate evolution with a computer: they invariably sneak in a pre-selected "goal" or "target" for the randomly generated events to move toward -- something which is obviously teleological, and which is strictly verboten in Darwinism.


Post 106

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 6:43pmSanction this postReply
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Time to ante up Gram.  Are you an atheist?
(Edited by Jody Allen Gomez on 8/17, 8:33pm)


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Post 107

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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This thread is becoming tiring -- and is now descending into a race to see who gets the last word in.   Well, it probably won't me who gets in the last word since this will be my last word.  Jody, Marcus, Ethan and Robert Malcom (and many others) are all capable of carrying it on if they see any use in doing so.

Grammarian's arguement was essentially destroyed in my post #59 in this thread where I ruled out his elaborate attempts at making inferences that simply do not meet proper epistemological standards -- at least when viewed under the microscope of Objectivist Epistemology and its very substantive requirements for concept formation and the requirements for valid knowledge.  In this case Grammarian failed to provide any substantive evidence of his designer(s) and failed to give any non rationalized evidence of their existence.  The so called "substantive posts" by Grammarian are nothing more then mind numbingly elaborate rationalizations that are based upon faulty premises about "probability".   For obvious examples of these rationalizations take a look at all of the posts where he attempted to use an analogy which compares objects and machines which we can see have been designed by humans and the complex innerworkings we find in various entities that exist in nature and then infers that the later show similar marks of "design".   My last post #89 showed very clearly that the necessity of his ill advised inferences leads to an endless retrogression of "designers".  It wasn't necessary for me to lay this arguement out but I did it anyway to show the futility of his need to infer a designer in cases where unique and so called "improbable" (or "singularly complex") occurances and entities take place or exist within existence. 

For those of you who would like to read up on the issues discussed in this thread I suggest the following books.

#1.  Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology (Ayn Rand) -- For obvious reasons.

#2.  Atheism The Case Against God (George H Smtih) --  This deals with many of the issues rasied by the ID people and rules them out with metaphysical and epistemological arguments that are consistent with Objectivism. 

#3.  The Blind Watchmaker (Richard Dawkins) -- If you wish to move on to the refutations of specific "ID theories" this book will provide you with most of the ammo you need though most can be eliminated strictly by evaluating them under the microscope of Objectivist metaphysics and epistemology and the rules of logic.

#4.  The Art of Making Sense or Logic : An Introduction (Lionel Ruby) -- This is the book I suggest to those who constantly use petty diversions and ad hominem attacks and thus try to instill a dumbed down mob mentality into discussions.  It serves as a set of reminders of the proper methods that must be used when discussing ideas.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/17, 7:24pm)


Post 108

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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Jason-
I couldnt agree with you more.  That's why I tried to cut to the chase with Gram in my last post.  I applaud you for the patience you have displayed here in trying to address this god-of-the-gaps theist.


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Post 109

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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The Grammarian,
It's a stupid question because you apparently seem perfectly comfortable when an infinite regress involves non-intelligent causes -- the motion of particle A is caused by particle B's smacking into it; the motion of B was caused by the motion of C; the motion of C was caused by D; D by E; etc. etc., ad infinitum...
There is a difference between this case and ID. In the case of ID there is no most complex designer that could possibly exist in order to create the other designers.

In the case of collisions, one solution which you failed to mention was the case where the material always existed, has been colliding infinitely into the past, and will continue to collide infinitely into the future. Infinite regress of time is possible.

Post 110

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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Gram-

 It's a stupid question because you apparently seem perfectly comfortable when an infinite regress involves non-intelligent causes --
No, it's an infinite regress that is the conclusion of your logic, not mine.


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Post 111

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 9:32pmSanction this postReply
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Jody, Ethan, Marcus, Jason and others:

Serves all of you right for feeding the trolls. I told you so. If trolls happen again, as I'm sure they will, please try to remember that no one is ever entitled to so much as one minute of your life.

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Post 112

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 9:44pmSanction this postReply
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Hmmm...there's only one thing this thread needs right now:

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4133&n=2

- Daniel

Post 113

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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From The Onion:

“According to the ECFR paper published simultaneously this week in the International Journal Of Science and the adolescent magazine God's Word For Teens! , there are many phenomena that cannot be explained by secular gravity alone, including such mysteries as how angels fly, how Jesus ascended into Heaven, and how Satan fell when cast out of Paradise.”

Post 114

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
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The Grammarian,
 
It's a stupid question because you apparently seem perfectly comfortable when an infinite regress involves non-intelligent causes -- the motion of particle A is caused by particle B's smacking into it; the motion of B was caused by the motion of C; the motion of C was caused by D; D by E; etc. etc., ad infinitum...
 
There is a difference between this case and ID. In the case of ID there is no most complex designer that could possibly exist in order to create the other designers.
 
Really?  Why?

In the case of collisions, one solution which you failed to mention was the case where the material always existed, has been colliding infinitely into the past, and will continue to collide infinitely into the future. Infinite regress of time is possible.

I see.  So you believe in an "uncaused cause."  Very good. 

Anyway, by parity of reasoning:

"In the case of intelligence, one solution which you failed to mention was the case where an intelligence always existed, has been creating complex specified information infinitely into the past, and will continue to create complex specified information infinitely into the future.  Infinite regress of time is possible."

Of course, the only problem with your last statement regarding time is that an infinite regress is NOT possible if there was, in fact, a Big Bang.  The latter didn't happen "in" time.  By definition, time and space did not exist before the Big Bang.  At any rate, it isn't important for the argument:  an infinite regress of time can accommodate an "uncaused intelligence" every bit as much as much as it can accommodate an "uncaused material collision."  The fact that you prefer one over the other is strictly a matter of subjective preference.


Post 115

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
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Also considering most scientists achieved their greatest intellectual feats when they were around Jasons age, I think I'd cut it with the ad hominem attacks on his age.

A splendid example of high-level conceptual reasoning!

"Einstein, Maxwell, and Faraday accomplished great intellectual feats around the age of 29.
Jason Q. is 29.
Ergo, Jason Q. can/could/may/might/does accomplish great intellectual feats.

A perfect example of the fallacy of the undistributed middle term.

Anyway, I have no idea what you mean by most scientists.  Some scientists did great work before the age of 30; many wait patiently until middle age or later.

If I can't attribute Jason's absurd, self-congratulatory, and operatically bloated image of himself and his abilities, to his youth and his lack of knowledge about anything other than a doctrinaire reading of Objectivism (not to mention a sophomoric approach to philosophy and ideas in general), then I guess I'll have to attribute it to the fact that, perhaps, he really is just a twit.


Post 116

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

I find you a mindless twit and decided to ignore you.

There is one thing you said in Post 36 that was interesting or true--


Arguements against elements of Darwinism are absolutely acceptable if they are based upon valid evidence. 
but only true in theory, not practice. 

If you don't believe me post a few critiques of evolutionary theory (provided you know the subject well enough) and see how quickly you become the troll.  Certain subjects, even here, or maybe especially here, are taboo. Their mere whisper will bring you immediate villification.

 
Very true.  Here is a link to your namesake, Professor John A. Davison, at the University of Vermont.  He's not an ID guy; just an independent thinker whose reason and research led him to question (and finally reject) Darwinism.  Many other scientists have a similar story to tell.  Below is an excerpt from his website.

WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN ANTIDARWINIAN AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VERMONT

John A. Davison, Ph.D.
Department of Biology

In 1984 I published the first of a series of papers offering
a new hypothesis of organic evolution:  "Semi-meiosis as an
Evolutionary Mechanism" appeared in the Journal of Theoretical
Biology
1984 also happens to be the title of George Orwell's
novel, the significance of which will soon become evident.

I have always enjoyed teaching Introductory Biology and that
experience has been instrumental in causing me to question the
neo-Darwinian view of the evolutionary process.  After leaving the
staff of Biology 1 and 2, I introduced a new course designed expressly
for non-science majors:  Zoology 8 (The Animal World).  This course
proved to be popular and enjoyed enrollments of around 100 students.
The last two lectures were concerned with the mechanism of evolution,
and in those lectures I introduced the semi-meiotic hypothesis and
contrasted it with the neo-Darwinian view.

Sometime in the fall of 1991 the chairman called a secret meeting of
the tenured faculty at which he introduced a petition which served to
eliminate Zoology 8 from the departmental offerings.  He then exited
the room leaving a majority of the faculty to sign the petition.
I knew nothing of this until the newspaper appeared and Zoology 8 was
missing.  I was unable to have the course reinstated.  As the course
was outside the departmental curriculum, this action was a clear
violation of not only my academic freedom but also that of those
students who had chosen to study with me.

Etc.


Post 117

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:35amSanction this postReply
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All I have to say is, I find it amazing how threatened some people get when some supposed troll is invading their supposed space. I'm an atheist, and personally this doesn't bother me, but then again, I don't know everything like some others here.


Shane



Post 118

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:37amSanction this postReply
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To me, this all seems like many are looking at this issue pragmatically, not principly, refusing to recognise that the universe is an integratedness - totally, thuroughly. Thus what appears to be inconsistancies are immediately proscribed as such, and rejoiners are pounced on with distorted caracatures.

Robert,

You've written a few interesting posts on this thread that I had been meaning to respond to.  I hope I may do so now.

It's certainly true that the universe is an integrated whole; that's pretty much the meaning of the very word "UNIverse."  The problem is we have to form models of this "whole" that are rich enough to allow us to ask questions about it, and there is a tendency for people to confuse the model of the universe with the universe (or, as the expression goes, "to confuse the map with the territory").  The territory presents itself to us; it's a presentation.  The map represents something other than itself; it is a representation.  Most of the philosophically minded scientists make an effort to keep in mind the difference between the two, and do NOT take the map too seriously; it can always stand improvement, if not outright radical change.  However -- speaking of design -- "maps" require "mapmakers" (cartographers), and those who create "maps" -- especially ones that model some aspect of the universe -- view their creation with the same passion as an artist views his work (and sometimes the same disgust).  When someone points out an "inconsistency", the inconsistency is not (as everyone knows) in the universe; it's in someone's map of the universe.  And that is often viewed as a personal attack on one's work.

If one is not a map-maker, then one is a map reader, and it is most common for map readers to confuse the map with the territory.  It's even understandable.  They are not used to the conceptual map-making process, and they don't realize (nor do they believe it when you tell them) that there is often a great choice of maps available, each one very different in the way it represents its territory.

There are two very different authors who have written about this map-making and map-reading process as it relates to science.  One is Karl Popper.  I highly recommend his collection of essays on scientific creativity titled "Conjectures and Refutations."  The other (O, heresy!) is C. S. Lewis.  Lewis was an impeccable scholar of classics and intellectual history.  I highly recommend a hard-to-get book of his titled "The Discarded Image," which is a history of the geocentric system and the Aristotelian physics and worldview it depended on.  The purpose of the book (other than purely informational) is to put the reader inside the mind of an ordinary person in antiquity and the middle ages, up to the time of the Copernican revolution.  What sort of things did the ordinary guy-on-the-street take for granted about the universe and his place in it?  Lewis is a master of this sort of writing.  The book helps one to see how maps other than the one we have inherited the last few hundred years can, in some ways, be just as successful at answering questions, making predictions, etc.  The book also shows us that the map, in many ways, not only constrains the kinds of answers we will accept as valid or invalid, but also constrains the sorts of questions we are even willing and able to pose.  The very act of posing certain kinds of questions is a threat to the integrity of the map (and, by implication, the status of the map-makers).  That's one reason that old, established maps -- maps that most people take for granted and no longer think of as being a representation at all -- usually obstruct the advance of knowledge.


Post 119

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:43amSanction this postReply
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You seem to be endlessly fascinated with nature and its inner workings. 
 
Yes, such a child, I guess.
 
So much so that you make the error of becoming overly impressed with it in the same way that you might be impressed by a new technological invention. 
 
That's actually a prerequisite for engaging in reserach in the first place.  Those who are not overly impressed by the workings of nature and technology should get a day job and stay out of intellectual discussions of this sort.
 
The fundamental error you make over and over is the assumption that the "causal orderliness" and complexity you seem to know so much about in some way naturally presupposes and on its own provides you with the necessary evidence to infer a "designer". 
 
On the other hand, the fundamental error you make over and over is being overly blase about orderliness; as if a doctrinaire "Oh, that's just the old Law of Identity manifestiting itself again" somehow explains anything in science.  It's a vacuous tautology with some use in logic; zero use in scientific research (or, for that matter, any sort of creative endeavor).  Anyway, you might do me the favor of reading my posts.  I've said ten times (now eleven) that there are different kinds of "orderliness" (i.e., complexity) and that they can certainly have different causes.  The complexity of radioactive decay is caused by randomness.  The complexity of a crystal's regularity is caused by deterministic laws.  The first exhibits mere complexity; the second exhibits mere specificity.  But symphonies and bird nests exhibit both complexity and specificity, and we never find the two together in the absence of intelligence.  Your assertion from your previous posts that intelligence must only be assumed to be of human origin because any other intelligence lies outside of our past experience is not only absurd but -- worse -- it's unscientific.  There wasn't a single major scientific discovery that was accomplished by looking to past experience.
 
  The easiest counter argument is that the universe simply operates all by itself based upon the law of identity and the law of causality
 
Which law of causality?  Aristotle cited four of them:  material cause, formal cause, efficient cause, and final cause.  ID is attempting to revive the use of "final cause" as a legitimate mode of explanation in biology (and, some might say, in physics as well).
 
 and that it ALWAYS HAS.   The orderliness you are seeing and the various cause and effect occurrences (no matter how unique or improbable certain occurences may be) are simply the result of the fundamental nature of existence. 
 
Of course.  And intelligence and mind are every bit as much a part of the universe as chance and necessity.  Ergo, intelligence and mind are capable of causing things to happen.  One of the things they cause to happen can now, happily, be characterized mathematically: it's called complex specified information.  It's a perfectly natural part of the universe, as fully obedient to the law of identity and the law of causality (the 4th one cited by Aristotle) as anything else in the universe.
 
 Existence and the things which happen within it don't NEED any designer it just operates the way it operates.
 
Obviously, things that bear evidence of design need to be explained by reference to a designer.  You'll either have to disprove the existence of complex specified information (by showing that it's not a legitimate conceptual category within information theory), or admit that it does exist and explain how it can come into existence by chance and necessity.  Simply to say "that's the way it is" is not only to say nothing at all, but it says nothing in the same unctiously arrogant, doctrinaire way that Walter Cronkite used to tell us the news every night for years on television.
 
The inferences you make based upon your knowledge of various interesting instances of cause and effect relationships and unique entities that result from them are entirely frivolous (as I illustrated very clearly in my last post) and are in fact totally unnecessary.
 
Then you are admitting that it is unnecessary to allow the existence of an author named Ayn Rand who "composed" (i.e., specified) a long novel called Atlas Shrugged (i.e., complexity).  You are willing to admit, not just an empty mathematical probability, but the physical reality of a scenario in which billions of monkeys tapped away randomly and the text came into existence of its own accord, under the blessed guidance of the great Law of Identity and Law of Causality.  Imputing an author may be a convenience, but grown-up scientists know that such an explanation is unnecessary.
 
Anytime you wanna buy a bridge from me (I swear, I really do own it), you just let me know.


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