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Post 120

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 4:30amSanction this postReply
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The Grammarian,

Congratulations for your knowledge, charm and character, and thank you for the useful information you are providing. A moral, rational debate is a requirement for the spread of science in public arenas, and your priceless efforts in this forum definitely go in that direction.

My guess is that Objectivism can't accept ID because this scientific theory seriously collides with the strictly Materialist basis of the Randian way of thinking. A similar collision appears when we confront the Problem of Universals and its flawed definition in Objectivism (you may see the excellent Scott Ryan's book Objectivism and the Corruption of Rationality in that respect.).

Some time ago I posted my last message in this forum, but today I decided to post this message to ask you two questions:

1) What do you think are the best books, websites, and papers for anyone interested in learning more on the rebuttal of (Neo-)Darwinism and the case for Intelligent Design?

2) What's your overall opinion on Objectivism?

Thank you,

Joel Català

P.S.: If you prefer private correspondence, my email is: joelcatala2004@yahoo.com

(Edited by Joel Català on 8/18, 4:42am)


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Post 121

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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The Grammarian,

I see you haven't made a comment on my explanation of increasing information/complexity without intelligence. Have you given up the position that such a thing is impossible?

Now as for the big bang... that is not my position, so for you to refute it is a waste of your time.

Indeed, what do you prefer? A universe (energy, matter, time, space) that has always existed? Or an intelligent being that always existed, that made the universe? I prefer the first one, Ockham’s Razor. I will not believe anything unless it is supported by evidence. You prefer the second one. You believe things without evidence.

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Post 122

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 7:06amSanction this postReply
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To Robert Davison: Except for the first two lines, post #93 was copied from Grammarian's post #47. How about giving your own arguments or saving space with a reference?

In post #91 I made three points against Grammarian's assumptions.  About the first, which exposed one (implicitly, a second) of his patently false claims, he granted its validity, and followed with a parody. The second he granted its truth, called it irrelevant and followed with another parody. So in reply I return the favor to his response -- irrelevant. To the third he did not respond. Why, I don't know, maybe because the "unintelligent" bacteria is goal-directed (teleological).

Grammarian has heavily used the arguments of William Dembski here. So I post these links:
http://www.csicop.org/si/2002-11/dembski.html
http://www.csicop.org/sb/2000-12/reality-check.html

Now I heed Adam and echo Glenn (post #33) - click.


Post 123

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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Here is a history of the creationist science and scientists.

1) First they said, the Earth millions years old, how absurd! Everyone knows the bible makes it only 6000 years old!!!!

2) Then they said, man descended from Monkeys (even though this was a mis-representation), how absurd! Everyone knows the bible story of Adam and Eve to be true!!!!

3) Then they said, fossils from extinct animals in the earth, how absurd! Everyone knows that they were placed there by Satan to fool us!!!!

4) Then they said, carbon dating telling us that fossils are millions of years old, how absurd! Everyone knows that carbon dating is wildly inaccurate!!!!

5) Then they said, fossil records showing a progression of development of a species, how absurd! Everyone knows these things get mixed up in earthquakes!!!!

6) Then they said after many long years of argument and confirmation in molecular biology. Well, I think you might be right after all. Evolution is real.

7) Then they said, Evolution by random chance, how absurd! Everyone knows that a creator was there all along guiding evolution!!!

8) Then they said, everything that Evolution cannot explain, proves that there is a creator. If you dispute this then you scientists are no better than well, well, dogmatic believers like ourselves!

9) Then they said in the tablet. http://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/register.cgi/tablet-01063
Well, maybe random chance is correct after all.

10) Then they will eventually say, random chance is correct, but the creator started it.

At the end of the day, faith will always be faith and nothing more.

Science 10. Creationists 0 (and still evading).




Post 124

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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Thanks Marcus. Anyone who wants scientific math models for life's beginning (as opposed to the Dembski BS) can find them in The Origin of Life by Freeman Dyson.

Jim


Post 125

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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The division in this thread sure does remind me of something.  What is it?  Oh yeah ...

Gulliver and the Lilliputians. ;-)

Andy


Post 126

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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I think we need a few Flat Earth advocates and Ptolemean astronomers to make this site complete :-).

Jim


Post 127

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:37pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

What an impertinent question.  It's none of your business if he believes in God, especially the way you asked the question.  There is no prohibition on this site against Theists.

SOLO is worthwhile, because there are no litmus tests and no censorship not because you are here.


Post 128

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Shane,

All I have to say is, I find it amazing how threatened some people get when some supposed troll is invading their supposed space

Thank you Shane, an other voice of sanity.  Do many of these lardmouthed sheople remind of the heroes in Ayn Rand's books? 


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Post 129

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

All we ask is that advocates of Intelligent Design provide actual evidence of the supposed all-powerful intelligence itself. Absent that, all of their argumentation is without merit.

Jim


Post 130

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

Yes 93 was copied from 47.  I was asked specifically what I felt that Marcus had overlooked and I provided it.

As to your pride in post 91, nuh ah, honey, you're mouth be writin' a check your ass can't cash.

Post 92 by Grammarian blows you away.


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Post 131

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison,

Let me take a page from Mr. Perigo's book of interpersonal relationships and say "fuck you." Let me get this straight: Grammarian and any other person you like is allowed to say what they like, but when we take them to task for their points of view with either serious argumentation or humorous disdain we are way out of line, but when you throw nasty insults and misdirections into conversations, that's just the great open forum of SOLO? Right. Get bent.

Lindsay,

While you know I value polite conversation and have taken you to task on several occasions for being less than...diplomatic, I'm starting to see your point of view. While I'll never sanction insulting people who don't deserve it, I take back any and all recriminations for dealing with assholes in as blunt terms as possible. You have my apologies


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Post 132

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
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Robert asks:
Do many of these lardmouthed sheople remind of the heroes in Ayn Rand's books?
Actually, I'm reminded of the scene in AS when Dagny finds out that she is going to have to debate the question: 'Is Rearden Metal a lethal product of greed?'  Her response:
"You goddamn fool, do you think I consider their question debatable?" 
Glenn


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Post 133

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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Or Hugh Akston:

I refuse to regard the refusal to think as another school of thought.

Jim


Post 134

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 3:11pmSanction this postReply
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Dean Michael Gores write:

How reality works, it is also what I mean when I say the word “evolution”:

1. Atoms exist.
Molecules exist.

I’m right there with you.

Molecules are made of combinations of atoms.

You have a gift for explaining the mysteries of reductionism.

There is a virtually unlimited number of combinations that the virtually infinite number of atoms can be arranged to form molecules.

Is that a fact?  I didn’t know that.  Would you mind offering some evidence of that?  Anyway, you’re wrong about the number of atoms being “virtually infinite.”  Best conjectures as to the number of fundamental particles = 10^80.  As atoms are composed of fundamental particles, the number of atoms in the universe is less than 10^80.  It’s a big number, but it isn’t “virtually infinite.”

2. Some molecules can copy themselves.

We wouldn’t be here if that weren’t true.

One primitive form of copying is lengthening and breaking.

Lengthening and breaking have nothing to do with copying.  If something lengthens and breaks and we find that the broken piece is a copy of the original piece, then some other process did the copying first before the lengthening and breaking. 

There are other ways molecules are copied.

So far, I know of only one way:  it’s called “copying.”  To lengthen and break might make two things where we originally had one thing, but there’s no requirement here that the two things be copies of each other.

3. There are occurrences of practically random removal, addition, and switching parts of molecules with other atoms and molecules.

Yes, I believe that’s what happens when we combine hydrogen and oxygen to get water.  So far, this is a masterful demonstration of the trite.  I remain hopeful, however.

4. Each molecule will be copied or changed in different contexts.

Some changes lead to molecules that are unable to copy (aka death). Averaging over time, a given molecule has a probability of being copied P(copy) and a probability of becoming uncopyable P(death) in a given context.

5. At each moment through time, there will be a set of molecules, and each unique molecule will have a frequency. By unique, I mean they have a different position, but the same atoms, atom locations, and bonds.

6. In a given context, different molecules will be copied/changed at different rates,

This is an example of a classic “hand-waving” argument (“Given a certain unspecific context and unspecified molecules exhibiting unspecified properties -- except that they may be able to copy or they may not be able to copy themselves -- unspecified results will ensue.”).

which arises from their P(copy) and P(death).

“Copy” as you use it means “survives.”  So your analysis turns out to mean this:

”In certain contexts, certain molecules will copy themselves and survive; others won’t.”  It’s a statement similar in profundity to “A is A.”  True but trite.

Molecules with a P(copy)/P(death)>1 will increase in frequency,

By “frequency,” you mean “number.”  Yes.  Those entities whose ratio of reproduction/death is greater than 1 will increase their numbers.

and molecules with a P(copy)/P(death)<1 will decrease in frequency.

You leave no stone unturned.  Your tenacity in examining and re-examining the obvious is admirable.

P(copy)/P(death) corresponds to an expected copy rate.

7. Given 1-6, new and unique molecules are made constantly, each of which will also have a unique expected copy rate in a given context.

9. At each moment through time, molecules of different expected copy rates will continuously change the molecule frequency distribution. Some molecules (and some changes) will flourish, some will survive, and some will not in a given amount of time.

Yes.  A utilitarian philosopher in the 19th century had a similar insight regarding people and coined an expression for it:  survival of the fittest.  Jeremy Bentham coined the expression first; it was later taken over by Darwin.  People today like to speak of “social Darwinism,” but since Bentham’s phrase came first, we should really be calling it “biological Benthamism.”

But I digress.

10. Changes compound upon previous changes. Compounded changes are just like the changes in #3, except that they can result in a larger range of expected copy rates.

And maybe they can’t.  Why should I accept that “compounded changes” are just like the earlier changes in step #3?  The changes could be neutral; the changes could be injurious; the changes could be positive.  As it so happens, no randomly produced change forced on living molecules has produced a beneficial change -- ever.  When DNA copies itself, it sends out a chemical “proof-reader” to check the integrity of the copy.  Occasionally, the proof-reader misses an error (some nucleotide bases are reversed, or one nucleotide base accidentally gets substituted for another nucleotide).  In mammals, the rate of copying DNA copying errors is about 1-in-10-billion copies, or 1/10^10.  Many horrible diseases are causes by a single accidental nucleotide substitution -- sickle-cell anemia, for example.

None of this proves that a random contribution or change to DNA could not, in theory, produce a new trait or ability in the organism -- either one that’s neutral (e.g., red hair as opposed to brown) or one that’s positive.  But it has never been observed, after many decades of experiments with different animals (mainly fruit flies, which breed quickly and are especially susceptible to mutations from radiation).  The sorts of changes we see in the fruit fly are mainly negative, with a few neutral ones (i.e., some lucky flies get to be born with an extra leg sticking out of the side of their head.  Apparently, normal females find that to be a turn-off and won’t mate with them.)

1-9 applies to compounded changes as well, most notably #6, so some compounded changes can result in very high molecule frequencies.

Translation:  Some unspecified compounded changes from unspecified causes in unspecified molecules in “some context” can/may/might/could confer a survival advantage and lead to a higher birth/death ratio, leading to a larger population.

1-10 is how reality works.

Thank you for explaining it to me.  I promise I will give all future posts of yours the attention they deserve.


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Post 135

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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None of this proves that a random contribution or change to DNA could not, in theory, produce a new trait or ability in the organism -- either one that’s neutral (e.g., red hair as opposed to brown) or one that’s positive.  But it has never been observed, after many decades of experiments with different animals (mainly fruit flies, which breed quickly and are especially susceptible to mutations from radiation).  The sorts of changes we see in the fruit fly are mainly negative, with a few neutral ones (i.e., some lucky flies get to be born with an extra leg sticking out of the side of their head.  Apparently, normal females find that to be a turn-off and won’t mate with them.)

Another case of the blind leading the clueless.

How about mutations that cause greater longevity? They have been discovered in yeast, flies, worms and mice.

How about mutations that confer antibiotic resistance in bacteria? How about mutations in mice that confer disease resistance?

How about the naturally occurring mutation in humans that causes sickle cell anemia, but also confers resistance to Malaria?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/2/real/l_012_02.html

Did you guys learn all your science via google - because you don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about.

You best go back to studying the Bible.

(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 8/18, 4:04pm)


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Post 136

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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Because intelligent design works from a clean sheet of paper, it should produce organisms that have been optimally designed for the tasks they perform. Conversely, because evolution is confined to modifying existing structures, it should not necessarily produce perfection. Which is it?
 
The Eye:
 
An intelligent designer, working with the components of the neural wiring of the eye, would choose the orientation that produces the highest degree of visual quality. No creator, would suggest that the neural connections should be placed in front of the photoreceptor cells -- thus blocking the light from reaching them -- rather than behind the retina.

However, this is exactly how the human retina is constructed. The result is a blind spot in the retina.

So you say. "The creator needed it to be that way."

No. The squid and the octopus, have a lens-and-retina eye quite similar to our own, but their eyes are wired right-side out, with no light-scattering nerve cells or blood vessels in front of the photoreceptors, and no blind spot.

Maybe the creator wanted you to worship squid?

Bow down to octopussy's you ID idiots!


Post 137

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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The Grammarian writes:
>Yes. A utilitarian philosopher in the 19th century had a similar insight regarding people and coined an expression for it: survival of the fittest. Jeremy Bentham coined the expression first; it was later taken over by Darwin. People today like to speak of “social Darwinism,” but since Bentham’s phrase came first, we should really be calling it “biological Benthamism.”

As far as I am aware, the originator of the phrase "the survival of the fittest" is usually considered to be the amiable Herbert Spencer.

Are you claiming Bentham said it first?

- Daniel

Post 138

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 7:10pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Let me take a page from Mr. Perigo's book of interpersonal relationships and say "fuck you." Let me get this straight: Grammarian and any other person you like is allowed to say what they like, but when we take them to task for their points of view with either serious argumentation or humorous disdain we are way out of line, but when you throw nasty insults and misdirections into conversations, that's just the great open forum of SOLO? Right. Get bent.
Not what was said or even intended by my post.  I'm baffled.

You are free to conform your thinking to respectable beliefs, if that's how you want to live.  Most of the citizens  who have ever existed on this planet chose that path.  Of course, they are not mentioned in history or revered, but their peers thought well of them. 

Everything Rand writes screams take a chance at the brass ring.  Even if you wrong and never win the prize, it is better than mediocrity.

Lindsay,

While you know I value polite conversation and have taken you to task on several occasions for being less than...diplomatic,
Why am I not surprised?

 


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Post 139

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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"You are free to conform your thinking to respectable beliefs, if that's how you want to live.  Most of the citizens  who have ever existed on this planet chose that path.  Of course, they are not mentioned in history or revered, but their peers thought well of them. 

Everything Rand writes screams take a chance at the brass ring.  Even if you wrong and never win the prize, it is better than mediocrity."


You are doing it again Robert.  This is called a diversion.  Don't you see the pathetic habit you get into??  You take a position on something that you are not qualified to argue in favor of so instead of doing that you play cheer leader for someone you believe is and then you sit in the thread taking pot shots at the different posters who are on the other side of the fence.  Then when they ask you to defend yourself on ANY of your opinions or any of the things you say in your posts instead of providing a direct answer you play this game of diversions and that is EXACTLY what you did again in this post -- this meaningless nonsensical post.  It is a petty tactical diversion to allow you to avoid addressing the problems Ethan is accusing you of.

 - Jason


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