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Post 0

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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I think it's Seattle isn't it.

---Landon




Post 1

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
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Not unless there're buildings there with chinese letterings on the sides...



Post 2

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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I stand corrected... What  a silly butt.

---Landon




Post 3

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 3:10pmSanction this postReply
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Hong,

Shanghai!

My co-worker Lu showed me a similar picture he took while in Shanghai about 2 years ago. I was amazed then. I recognize the very distinctive building with the spire and globes left of center. Somehow it makes me feel optimistic.

What would the Chinese do to the Islamic terrorists if they blew up one of these buildings? Care to venture a guess?



Post 4

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
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Its beautiful.



Post 5

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 2:47pmSanction this postReply
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Kuwait City, Kuwait.



Post 6

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
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Whoops.  Got that wrong :D



Post 7

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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Hey!  I got it right.  Nice pictures, thanks for posting.



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Post 8

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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One of my colleagues recently visited China for the first time and Shanghai has made such an impression on him that he couldnít stop talking about it. He said that it felt like a science fiction city!

 

Here are a few more pictures from this stunning collection of images of todayís Shanghai.

 

A close-up on the city.

 

Waitan-night

 

Lujiazui-night

 

Another area of the city

 

Millennium Square

 

Insider Hyatt.

 

Highway ramps

 

 
Frankly, I was completely flabbergasted. I've only been to Shanghai once more than 20 years ago and I could not have had imagined that it would have developed so fast.
 
 






Post 9

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
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Hey, are not communist cities all supposed to look like Moscow and East Berlin?  Is communism not a system of social looting and economic cannibalism that penalizes wealth with slow or quick death?  Does not the legally-enforced egalitarianism bring the worst people to the top while destroying the souls of creators? 

Looking at Shanghai, I see a contradiction.

Either (a) China is not a communist nation or (b) communism works.

(Another alternative is that both statements are false and some broader truth explains them.)

re snapshot 88 xujiahui3:  There sure are a lot of cars out at night for a communist city.  I am not a car guy, but are those all Jaguars? 

To be sure, Shanghai is a beautiful city. 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 8/14, 6:03pm)




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Post 10

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 6:25pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

China is "Communist" like Germany is "Christian." There is obligatory lip service to the Established Dogma - and then there is what people actually do.

China is actually a Kleptocracy, designed to optimize the income of the (nominally Communist) Nomenklatura. In matters that do not threaten the power and income of the Nomenklatura, China has one of the world's freest markets.



Post 11

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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Looks like some of you are more knowledgeable about modern Shanghai than me!

Mike asks:
What would the Chinese do to the Islamic terrorists if they blew up one of these buildings? Care to venture a guess?
Gee, I don't know. I think a lot of Chinese people, or at least Chinese government will not blink an eye if a few thousands people get killed. But if something that symbolizes the national pride is destroyed, such as Great Wall, or Tiananmen Gate, it would be quite unimaginable.





Post 12

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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Looking at Shanghai, I see a contradiction.

Either (a) China is not a communist nation or (b) communism works.
China is communist in it's politics but is more socialist in it's economics.  That is, it is ruled by elite philosopher kings al la typical marxist idealogy but people are now, since the onslaught of numerous market reforms, able to keep more of the products of their labor.  The typical usage of communism includes both a small elite class of rulers and common property but in reality you can have common property distributed by elected officials, for example India is very socialist and thus poor but it is also democratic.  You can have a small ruling elite but decent market based economies, for example Pinochet in Chile. 

It seems clear that the small class of elite rulers is realizing the power available in markets and one can only hope that the closed politics that rule the people will keep the industrial and military power that can come from strong markets at bay, or force the political system to open up, and eventually become representative.  Either way, better start learning some new languages ;)

Michael F Dickey




Post 13

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 9:21pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the photos Hong, makes me feel very optimistic about the future of China.

The CIA World Fact book has a good excerpt on the Economy of China

In late 1978 the Chinese leadership began moving the economy from a sluggish, inefficient, Soviet-style centrally planned economy to a more market-oriented system. Whereas the system operates within a political framework of strict Communist control, the economic influence of non-state organizations and individual citizens has been steadily increasing. The authorities switched to a system of household and village responsibility in agriculture in place of the old collectivization, increased the authority of local officials and plant managers in industry, permitted a wide variety of small-scale enterprises in services and light manufacturing, and opened the economy to increased foreign trade and investment. The result has been a quadrupling of GDP since 1978. Measured on a purchasing power parity (PPP) basis, China in 2004 stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US, although in per capita terms the country is still poor.
Consider that China has a population of 1.3 billion people and a GDP of 7.2 Trillion (GDP per capita is $5,600) 

Tawain, on the other hand, has a population of 22 million people and a GDP of 576 Billion (GDP per capita is $25,300)

So China, while having 60 times the population of Tawain has a GDP that is only 13 times greater.

The US, for comparison, has a population of almost 300 million, a GDP of 11.75 trillion and a GDP per capita of $40,000 (the highest in the world I believe)

CIA World Fact Book - http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

China still has a long way to go, but the trend is very clear.

Michael F Dickey




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Post 14

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 3:25amSanction this postReply
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Adam Reed wrote: "China is "Communist" like Germany is "Christian." There is obligatory lip service to the Established Dogma - and then there is what people actually do.  China is actually a Kleptocracy, designed to optimize the income of the (nominally Communist) Nomenklatura. In matters that do not threaten the power and income of the Nomenklatura, China has one of the world's freest markets.

Yes, Adam, I know all of that.  It was a rhetorical question.  There is a deeper problem there that your reply did not address.

So, kleptocracy works, then, is that it?

Is it then true that the USA is "capitalist" in the same sense that Germany is "Christian" and that, "in matters that do not threaten the power and income of the [ruling class], [the USA] has one of the world's freest markets."




Post 15

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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Hong, thank you for the link to the pictures. I guessed it maybe was Shanghai, with the river bend as a key clue. I was there one year ago. I thought Shanghai's skyline was more impressive than New York City's, and one of the tall bldgs has CapitaLand in big letters near the top.

We saw vastly different parts of China -- from Beijing to Lhasa to rural Tibet to Shanghai. In rural Tibet we met nomadic yak herders living in tents.

I could say some things that dull the glow of Shanghai. But I decline and urge others to look at the rest of the pictures via the link below the first picture Hong posted.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 8/15, 6:34am)




Post 16

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Yes, unfortunately, kleptocracy works - it in fact works better, for most people, than a majoritarian republic, once the former limits on majority rule have been "worked around." Kleptocratic regimes usually stagnate eventually - this already appears to be happening in Singapore, which was the first modern kleptocracy - but the process is very slow.



Post 17

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 11:34amSanction this postReply
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It's Shanghai! I recognize it, because my Kung Fu teacher is from Shanghai and has shown me some pictures from there. However, he has to be cautious whenever he travels to China, for he has been expelled by the Red Party from China (however, he has a fake pass and thus can visit his family once in a while).

It's incredible how fast the cities have grown and changed in the last decades, but it also is certainly a good sign.




Post 18

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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Max,
It's incredible how fast the cities have grown and changed in the last decades...
It's all in about 15 years.




Post 19

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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Shanghai real estate market is a bubble. Artificially low interest rates and huge inflow of speculative capital based on hopes of Yuan revaluation are its main causes. It will end in tears, as every bubble must end.



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