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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 3:17pmSanction this postReply
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Alright, I'll give it a shot. Everyone tell me how I do. I want to get this right.

I find this article interesting for the issues it raises then promptly fails to address. First, libertarians as a whole DO indeed lack a comprehensive philosophy; they accept as an axiom the rights of every individual. But these rights (in the forth tier of Objectivism, government) derive from egoism, which derives from reason, so on and so forth. The author raises the lack of philosophy and then refuses to answer it.

Secondly, when Ayn Rand wrote of America's "rights", she was using a shorthand form of expressing the way that America should act on the international stage. She was correct that the American government can and should be our servant, to the people, but we delegate the authority and responsibility of international relations (as a natural extension of self-defense, because self-defense requires dealing with other nations) to the government to act on our behalf. Therefore, what Ayn Rand said was this:

Americans give the authority for the Government to act on our behalf in international relations---> Therefore, the government act's on AMERICA's entire behalf, therefore fights for AMERICA's rights, or the rights of every individual to be free from repression. The shorthand form was sloppy, yes, and uncharacteristic of someone who understood the importance of words, but I see no inherent contradiction with Rand's words.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
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That's right - not every individual per se, but AMERICAN individuals.  The rest cover their own.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 9:16pmSanction this postReply
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There is a deeper meaning to “America’s rights” that many miss. Binswanger has defended the line, “what’s good for General Motors is good for America.” The point is important and it applies to Chevron, as well. Securing the flow of oil is *not* just the problem of the oil interests, it is the problem of *every individual* American (the Chinese get a free ride, but let’s have it be us who guarantees the flow, and not the Chinese.) We are all screwed if the oil falls into hands that would deny it to us.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ah - does that mean we get to rope Chavez?


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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 2:54amSanction this postReply
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Quoth Steven Druckenmiller:

"I find this article interesting for the issues it raises then promptly fails to address. First, libertarians as a whole DO indeed lack a comprehensive philosophy; they accept as an axiom the rights of every individual."

Not exactly, but close:

Some libertarians accept individual rights as axiomatic in the sense that they don't posit any underlying justification for them; they just are, and that's all.

Other libertarians consider individual rights derivative of, er, something ... but what that something might be varies in the judgment of the individual doing the considering.

What Objectivists (particularly the Peikoffians/ARI with a stern admonition toward non-Objectivist libertarianism) have held is that the first group above, and all iterations of the second group above except Objectivists cannot properly get past the existence of individual rights and to their proper application/applicability/importance, because they got to individual rights in the wrong way. "Garbage In, Garbage Out," -- even if one of the numbers in the garbage happens to be the correct number and in the correct place, the rest of the equation, including any datum derived from solving it, is bound to be FUBAR.

At one time, I argued (in the print edition of Free Radical, no less) against this idea, holding that the political manifestation of Objectivist ideas, "libertarianism," could be purchased a la carte and need not be part of a combination philosophical platter ... i.e. that if everyone had the same number at the same point in the equation, they could still derive the same result (and therefore work together based on that result) even if the prior material was different.

I've since become convinced that I was at least partially wrong on that (largely due to the arguments of Robert James Bidinotto).

On the other hand, I don't necessarily agree that those who may have got the first parts of the equation (metaphysics, epistemology, ethics and politics) right will necessarily get the last part (the "x" they are solving for) right every time (even with correct data, mistakes can be made), or that those who messed up the equation will necessarily come out with an incorrect answer for "x" (given the scope of a particular political/philosophical problem, the reasonable answers to it are far fewer than the infinitude of possible answers inherent in mathematics -- which means that dumb luck, obviosity, etc. have more play).

Tom Knapp

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:13amSanction this postReply
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Jon Letendre wrote: "We are all screwed if the oil falls into hands that would deny it to us."
HIggins: Today it is oil. Tomorrow, it is going to be wheat or plutonium.  What are people who have never known hunger going to want us to do?
Condor: Ask them.
Higgins: They won't want us to ask them.  They'll just want us to take it.
(From Three Days of the Condor.)

About 15 years ago, there was a pretty bad TV movie maybe with Brian Keith and Jaclyn Smith about a Soviet move against the Alaksa Pipeline.  The Soviets were out of food.  We had it.  They seized the pipeline as a bargaining chip.   

(Speaking of the Alaska Pipeline, did our leaders not promise us that it would free us from dependence on foreign oil?)

So, according to Jon Letendre, if "we" need peanuts and the people living in Liberia have peanuts, then "we" can take the peanuts because being Americans we are morally superior to all other people.  Moral superiority, it would seem, is defined by being American, since being looters would make us equal to everyone else.
Steven Druckenmiller wrote: "Secondly, when Ayn Rand wrote of America's "rights", she was using a shorthand form of expressing the way that America should act on the international stage."
 By "America" and "shorthand" do you mean "floating abstraction" or "anti-concept"? Where is this "international stage"?  Can we buy tickets to a performance? 

In order to form meaningful concepts, you have to get beyong the newspeak cliches.


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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
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Michael wrote: “So, according to Jon Letendre, if "we" need peanuts and the people living in Liberia have peanuts, then "we" can take the peanuts because being Americans we are morally superior to all other people.”

No. But if an Osama takes over Liberia, forbids the farmers from selling to us as they had been, and we start starving (“we”=you and I, Michael) then we have the right to crush the ruler and restore the situation of buying their peanuts. It’s really quite simple. And it’s as much about the Liberian farmer’s rights to sell to us as it is about our right to buy.

I don’t get how you could object to our right to make sure an Osama never takes over Liberia and starves us.

Jon

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Post 7

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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Quoth Jon Letendre:

"Securing the flow of oil is *not* just the problem of the oil interests, it is the problem of *every individual* American (the Chinese get a free ride, but let’s have it be us who guarantees the flow, and not the Chinese.) We are all screwed if the oil falls into hands that would deny it to us."

But then you retrench to a position that is not "we must secure the flow of oil," but (paraphrased) "we must prevent anyone from disrupting it through state power or aggression."

So, if the OPEC cartel was to come to an agreement with each other to stop selling oil to the US -- or if well owners worldwide just decided to stop doing so -- you would not assert a "right" to force them to, correct?

There's a world of deviltry in the notion of "securing the flow of oil." The first, rather than last, step in securing access to energy should be to quit subsidizing the oil industry (up to and including placing the national defense establishment at its disposal) and let it compete on the market.

150 years ago, it was the whale oil industry screaming that the state must see to its "security" ... and some ingenious people made that industry obsolete by figuring out how to make some inconvenient black stuff that kept gushing up out of the ground useful and profitable (and, as a side effect, virtually creating the modern world as we know it -- paved roads instead of horseshit-covered streets, and entire nations now a few hours or days, instead of a few weeks or months, away).

Change for the sake of change isn't a principle ... but neither is perpetuating the existing situation by main force in the name of "necessity."

Tom Knapp

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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"By "America" and "shorthand" do you mean "floating abstraction" or "anti-concept"? Where is this "international stage"? Can we buy tickets to a performance? "

Wow, you're so funny, Marotta. Maybe instead of acting like an ass, you could actually intelligently argue and refute my points.

I am not sure what your first sentence means. Ayn Rand certainly recognized the epistemological necessity of shorthanding, as it were, in the ITOE. And if you are calling America a floating abstraction, which means you think that America has no referents to concretes, I don't know how to help you. If you're calling America a media cliché, then I think that would border on the foolish.

Furthermore, international stage is a metaphor. Literalism can be fun at times, but at other times you're just being a pain in the ass. Gee, do you think that maybe I was saying "international stage" because it's where the give-and-take of international relations amongst international "actors" (hence the "stage" analogy) who "act" takes place? Or are all of these unacceptable metaphors too?

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

If we are discussing Rand’s positions and whether there’s a contradiction in them, we can’t jump to anarchy, she rejected anarchy. As do I. I don’t want Chevron in charge of the question of the necessity to take down Iran. I want my government to be in charge of using force.

So, back to Rand. There is no contradiction. “America’s interests” demand that our military be engaged in such a way to keep the oil flowing, (I didn’t follow the distinctions you were trying to make about “secure”, and such. I mean to say simply that our military should be so positioned that the oil will keep flowing into my furnace and car, I don’t know how to say it simpler than that. I would do it myself, but force is the monopoly of the government, as it properly should be. So I can’t do it myself and neither is Chevron allowed to.

In this context, “national interest” simply means every individual’s interest.

Jon

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Post 10

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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Not so fast, gentlemen.

Mr. Loberfeld's central point is that the ethical/political justification of neo-objectivists for wars that are non-defensive is that the United States, as a "free country", has the "right" to invade "slave states". As we're all probably aware, this is the explicit moral justification repeatedly employed by heavy hitting neo-objectivist war hawks on this site, and elsewhere.

However, only individuals possess rights, as Ayn Rand and Leonard Peikoff have themselves realized and discussed. Nations, counties, cities, all are political entities that do not have rights or self interest. Of  course, one may refer to the "general welfare" or "national interest" of a country (or city or county) in the broadest sense, meaning that the widest interests of everyone accord with understanding of and respect for individual rights. But this is different than asserting "national self- interest" in a particular government policy, the implementation of which requires the violation of the rights of the clients (or non-clients) that government is supposed to represent.

The contradiction on which Ayn Rand built some of her ideas about proper foreign policy is the inconsistency that Mr. Loberfeld proves in Rand's writing about this, an inconsistency that also turns up in the writing of leading Objectivists. When Rand wanted to support a non-defensive military action of the United States government, she argued that the action was justified because it accorded with our "right" as a nation to invade "slave pens".

However, when she opposed American involvement in a war, for example World War II, she argued that citizens were clients of the government to which they delegated the power to act, narrowly and specifically, to defend their rights from aggressors, domestic or foreign. Further elaborating this line of reasoning, Rand argued that she could not envision that fee-paying clients (as opposed to tax-paying subjects) of a properly constituted government would consent to pay for foreign wars of liberation. In a free society, such fee-paying clients want their government to restrict its activities and expenditures to the responsibility for which they engaged it: their own defense! 

As to the endless bloody tragedy of Iraq, it is obvious that trying to control the flow of oil was an unannounced but important objective of both Bush I and Bush II. However, the  notion that a military policy of invasion and occupation of Iraq, or eventually all of the Middle East, will assure Americans of less expensive petroleum products is half baked. First, if Saddam Hussein had become a regional power in that area, which the Bush's wanted to prevent, and if he somehow acquired the power to prevent the sale of any oil from that region to Americans, as smart free marketers we know that profit-seeking entrepreneuers from other countries would immediately begin buying and then reselling oil to American firms. Before long, the oil price received by Saddam would be somewhat lower than would otherwise obtain, while the oil price paid by US firms would be somewhat higher, but no higher than the going rate of profit.

And second, if the U.S. were actually a free country, then our "government" (it's really a state) would cease restricting and taxing the production of energy by its subjects. The result would be a great outpouring of energy production and innovation that would, in short order, bankrupt the incompetents and thieves who pose as "shieks", and who have never produced or created anything in their lives. The Arabian oil cartel can command vast revenues only because its potential competitors, primarily American energy entrepreneuers and capitalists, have been persecuted and villified, heavily taxed and regulated. One consequence of this injustice has been an artificial scarcity of energy supplies that has enriched Middle Eastern thugs.  


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